What's up with the Noob's?

[Ensapa]

Ensapa et al. -

i thought you were simply naive but i'm sorry to say that i can't help but feel you're being disingenuous now.

i will be delighted if and when the DL "unbans" the practice and will immediately stop speaking out against him, as will all the WSS etc., as they have stated repeatedly.

until then i will use all means at my disposal to discredit and disempower him, this being the only course of action he has left me with, not having agreed to engage in any debate or discussion.

this has got nothing to do with hatred.  you see hatred and an anti-Dalai Lama agenda where there is none.  stop being wilfully stupid.  we do not hate the Dalai Lama; we are trying to stop him from creating any more division and destruction to this holy lineage for the sake of all our kind mothers - yes, including him.

of all those he's harming, he's harming himself the worst.

he looks pretty happy to me. if Shudgen cant control him and you wanna control DL, thats a bit weird...hmm lemme try and process

i divided by 0!!

[Lineageholder]

To all the new members (those who signed up in the last month)

This is just my view: If you don't think there's anything wrong with the Dalai Lama, then you're just as fooled as everyone else who blindly follows him, even though you claim to love Dorje Shugden.

The Dalai Lama doesn't love you, make no mistake.  He doesn't want you and he doesn't want you to attend his teachings.  You're an outcast, an untouchable as far as he's concerned.  He wants to destroy your lineage and encourage you to break your spiritual commitments.  That's no reason not to love him, of course, because as Geshe Langri Tangpa said:

Even if someone I have helped
And of whom I had great hopes,
Nevertheless harms me without any reason
May I see him as my holy Spiritual Guide.

but attitude and actions of the Dalai Lama are not those of a qualified spiritual guide.  I hope you will see that one day.

What I'm seeing here is a group of people who have recently joined and who are subtly undermining the work of the Western Shugden Society (which includes both Westerners and Tibetans) by criticising their actions and the book 'A Great Deception'. Well, if you think you can do better to protect Dorje Shugden practitioners, go ahead.  It takes a lot of courage to take on the karma of criticising the Dalai Lama for the sake of protecting the lineage.  All you are advocating is inaction.  While I respect your right to hold that view, I don't think it's going to help anyone.  Like Atisha's Cook, I do hope you are not being disingenuous and that this isn't some kind of rear guard action by the Dalai Lama's supporters to undermine the WSS.

[vajralight]

Hear hear !!! Well spoken Lineageholder, I completely agree with you.

Thanks for your clear words !

Vajra

[iloveds]

Clear words maybe, but clear view, i think not. The verse quoted was in the context of the 8 verses of thought transformation. I think you missed the point of this verse, the meaning of spiritual guide is that this person gives you a chance to practice your compassion the most with this person and hence the person is guiding you spiritually.

i have never heard of anyone whose compassion is put to the test with the nicest person on earth. Compassion can only be practised with someone who will never appreciate what you do for them. Such as DS, no matter how many people put him down, try to destroy him, DS will always help you no matter what. But only if your practicing , or spreading the dharma.

My 2 cents again.

[Atishas cook]

iloveds (& the rest?) -

just in case - just in case - you are in reality this naive, i will say it again: we have compassion for the Dalai Lama.  in that sense he is like a Spiritual Guide giving us an object of practice.  however, his actions are completely deluded and extremely harmful; they are in no way and by no means the actions of a Buddha.

therefore, by convention, the Dalai Lama is not a Buddha.  he is, to all intents and purposes, an extremely deluded individual who has without any possible debate or doubt created one of the biggest schisms ever seen in this world within the Sangha.

you are a fool to keep talking in such faux-conciliatory terms.  your actions help no-one.  please: wise up or shut up.

sorry to be strong but, like the Dalai Lama you seem to want to defend, you have failed to listen to reason thus far.

with compassion,
Atisha's cook

[Ensapa]

okay so because he banned Shudgen he's extremely harmful irregardless of his work in rebuilding the other lineages in Tibet or spreading Buddhism in the world? I dunno sounds a weeeeeeee bit biased to me - but that's just me.

Can we like, talk about Shudgen without dragging DL into everything? Sure in 1 incarnation they may have shared a body (the incarnation as Kedrup Je) but no need to drag DL into this

[Lineageholder]

Can we like, talk about Shudgen without dragging DL into everything? Sure in 1 incarnation they may have shared a body (the incarnation as Kedrup Je) but no need to drag DL into this

We could talk about the good qualities of Dorje Shugden without dragging the Dalai Lama into it, but as to 'there's no need to drag DL into this', it's somewhat impossible as he's the source of the 'Dorje Shugden controversy' problem.

As for sharing the same body as Khedrubje, I don't think so.  Geshe Kelsang has said that one of Trijang Dorjechang's previous incarnations was Khedrubje.   He's a million miles away from the Dalai Lama in terms of views, intentions and actions.

[Atishas cook]

no, Ensapa, i do not think i am biased.  you feel we should not criticise a person's harmful actions simply because he (is believed to have) previously engaged in positive actions?  this is ridiculous.

if the Dalai Lama or anyone else does good, i will say he has done good.  if he does evil, i will say he has done evil.  this is not biased.

Hitler rebuilt his country's economy and provided prosperity to a large number of people who previously had none.  when he later ordered the extermination of the Jews, were those who spoke out against him biased?

wake up.  this is not Shangri la.  you cannot have your cake and eat it: if Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, and if people have the right to worship him freely without doing harm to others, then the Dalai Lama is wrong to ban this worship, his speech is divisive and his actions are harmful, and it is our duty as Buddhists of this lineage to stop him.

Buddha and Mara are NOT spreading Dharma together.  only Buddha does this.  to claim otherwise is a pernicious wrong view.  don't misuse the teachings on conventional truth to spread such harm.

[emptymountains]

okay so because he banned Shudgen he's extremely harmful irregardless of his work in rebuilding the other lineages in Tibet or spreading Buddhism in the world? I dunno sounds a weeeeeeee bit biased to me - but that's just me.

Sure, everybody has good qualities... but still a murderer is a murderer, and a dictator is a dictator.

don't misuse the teachings on conventional truth to spread such harm.

As Nagarjuna said, a nihilist is incurable.

[dsnowlion]

Do we really need to stood as low as the pro Dalai Lama crowd and the TGIE who accuses our protector, our lineage masters, gurus and us? Yes it is very painful to just sit there and witness and not do anything. We should do something but without slandering anyone. I mean if we believe in Dharma, hence we believe in Karma, hence their Karma will take care of them naturally, we don't need to collect negative karma like them as well.

With Gaden Trisur's defect to Shar gaden it already speaks volumes and in time they will see as more and more people will rise up and stand against this ban with kindness and compassion.

If we act like them, then what makes us different from them? We should educate them and show them the light if they are able to see. Use logic to debate instead of negativity. Go to the phayul forums and enlightened them they seriously need it!

Oh and check out the Dixie Chicks video on this Home Page. It is our anthem! A song most apt for our cry

[Ensapa]

so by venting our hatred against DL and whining about what he did to Shudgen, we're better than his anti Shudgen goons in what way? IF we hate DL the way those goons hate Shudgen, we're the same, only thing different is the object.

i dont know why am i still talking about this and not talking about the good qualities and benefits of Shudgen's practice.

[Ensapa]

This is not about 'Hate', as you keep saying from your perspective.

Sticks and Stones can,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

people who criticize Shudgen dont hate him too. DL said he dosent hate Shudgen....

[Ensapa]

"has anyone seen the anti Shudgen propaganda that the Nyigmas put up? Including a modified version of Dorje Drollo stepping on Shudgen, plus a car sticker of a naked and flayed Shudgen, tied up with magic strings with a scorpion stinging his head? whats up with those? i saw them on a recent trip to nepal."
Oh really!

is it just me or is the man beneath Dorje Drollo resembling Shudgen, including the heart? hmmmmmm


and this one too. notice the hat. Dorje Drollo is supposed to step on a lady but in recent incarnations he steps on a monk with a circular hat which bears way too much resemblance to Shudgen.

The monastery near Guru Rinpoche's cave in nepal has a huge statue of Dorje Drollo stepping on a man that really resembles Shudgen. Go there and have a look if you do get a chance to go.

[honeydakini]

I think there's two issues we're trying to battle here:
1) defend and protect DS practitioners?
2) critique Dalai Lama's actions (which is different from "criticise", mind you)

I think ultimately, we all just want to promote and defend Dorje Shugden practitioners and his very wonderful practice. We "fight" against the people who put us down or attack us or ban us or whatever, because we don't think it is right, or fair, or truthful in any way.

The best way to really promote our holy Protector & his practice, and to shut up those who are against DS practitioners is to be even kinder, even more compassionate, be an EVEN BETTER Dharma practitioner and uphold the teachings of our Lamas even stronger, achieve even greater mind transformation. The world will see this - they will look upon DS practitioners and realise that they are incredible people; effective, generous and beneficial practitioners and see that DS is, after all, something special and beneficial to look into. The best kind of "protest" we can make against Dalai Lama's ban and the anti-shugden perpetrators is to be even better than them. Kill them kindness, as it were.

[thor]

The previous abbots of both Gaden Jangtse and Shartse were TOLD OPENLY DURING A MEETING TO RESIGN since they don't fall in line with the policies on Dorje Shugden by Dalai lama two years back.

The Dalai Lama told the Jangtze abbot that he is two headed literally. Which is one head says ok to Dalai lama, the other head doesn't surpress the Dorje Shugden practice in Jangtse and hence he should resign. The abbot did resign and yes he is a Dorje Shugden practitioner whose teacher was Trijang Rinpoche.

Traditionally, the abbots of the big Gelug monasteries have the blessings of the Dalai Lama to hold that position. That extends to the positions of Sharpa Choeje and Jangtse Choeje, and even the Gaden Tripa too. Must have been embarrasing to TGIE when Gaden Trisur Jetsun Lungrik Namyal decided to switch sides to Shar Gaden.

Oh well, more power to Dorje Shugden and his practitioners! I hope this current abbot of Gaden Shartse and many other lamas in the word stand up for the beliefs...