Dalai Lama denounces Gangchen Rinpoche but Panchen Lama likes Him.

[LosangKhyentse]

The Tibetan Govt in exile has Gangchen Rinpoche on the Top ten most wanted listed. His picture with the other 9 most wanted are posted all over the 24 Tibetan Settlements throughout India and Nepal.

The Tibetan Govt in exile wishes all Tibetans to shun and ostracize Gangchen Rinpoche. Why else would they put up the wanted posters denouncing Rinpoche.

The Dalai lama has publicly denounced Gangchen Rinpoche on many occasions. On the Tibetan Govt's official website, they have a whole section against Gangchen Rinpoche. Sounds like the Governments of Burma and North Korea.


But Panchen Rinpoche very much likes Gangchen Rinpoche. In fact one of Gangchen Rinpoche's previous incarnation was the Abbot of Tashilunpo Monastery (the Monastery of Panchen Lama up till today).

Panchen Rinpoche and Gangchen Rinpoche have a very close relationship and do Dorje Shugden's Serkym (golden drink offering) together on occasion.

So the Dalai Lama denounces Gangchen Rinpoche, but Panchen Lama has Gangchen Rinpoche in High regard.

Dalai lama refuses to ever meet Gangchen Rinpoche, but the previous Panchen Lama will meet Gangchen Rinpoche easily.

 

[thaimonk]

Not only the previous Panchen Lama was in good terms with Gangchen Rinpoche, so too is the current 11th Panchen Lama.

[Vajraprotector]

I think I am quite intrigued by this. If the lamas who practice Dorje Shugden is shunned by His Holiness, but why are other High Lamas ok with DS- eg. Gaden Trisur (who recently joined Shar Gaden), and obviously Panchen Lama has no problem associating with Gangchen Rinpoche.

There's also another thing that amazes me - Trijang Rinpoche is given permission to practice Dorje Shugden, now why is that?  Why is it that Trijang Rinpoche can practice, but other lamas like Gangchen Lama (also a high lama and a reincarnated one) and Gaden Trisur, and all other Rinpoches in Tibetan Monasteries are not allowed....

I don't think things are THAT simple...

[DSFriend]

Coming from a Buddhist point of view where we believe in rebirths and reincarnations, I do find it quite funny as all the recognized Rinpoches carries in them the same quality and potential as their previous incarnations...and the fact that they all reincarnate back speaks volume.

They may manifest differently and use different methods, but only if people will look further,..the result of their work is to benefit others and spread the Buddhadharma. Results resemble the cause. I think Gangchen Rinpoche, Panchen Lama and DL are all great beings!  Thanks to everyone who have been posting in here as I'm learning quite a bit from this forum.

[DSFriend]

The Panchen Lama and Dalai Lama goes way back to so many lifetimes where they have the responsibilities of finding each others' incarnation. Since the mindstream is one in nature, how can out of a sudden HHDL and Panchen Lama stand on different "side of the fence" re Gangchen Rinpoche (who is another great being) because of Dorje Shugden controversies.

[Vajraprotector]

Trijang Rinpoche is given permission to practice Dorje Shugden, now why is that?

Statements like these from the Dalai Lama are merely political posturing, the Dalai Lama is trying to show he can control what all lamas do. 

I am thinking something BEYOND politics ...

I believe that Dalai Lama doesn't need to ASSERT his political posturing, with this "ban", we can see how many people who will follow what he says/ do (not just the Tibetans, but his followings in the Western world and worldwide who's mesmerised by his charisma and teachings), regardless of whether it's based on blind faith or not. Also, he is still the “god-king” and the Tibetans under TGIE will implement/execute what he said.

But if I were to agree with your view, that the Dalai Lama’s ban of DS is mainly political (like WSS’s thesis proposed in A Geat Deception). So thinking along this line, since the WSS thesis cannot be proven at this point as a fact, there is room for OTHER reasons that His Holiness is putting up this ban.

Let me take the position of WSS that His Holiness is power crazy. I am sure that he won’t try to assert it through his political posturing for a government that will perhaps not exist in the near future with no legacy – no country, no more tradition and now that the youth also started to have a mind of their own to demand for independent, going against the Dalai Lama. I am sure His Holiness has realised that long ago.

That also matches the argument brought forth by WSS that His Holiness wanted to unite all four tradition and make himself the spiritual leader in the Tibetan scene. So, don’t you think him proposing this ban will make him less popular in the global Tibetan spiritual scene, and also put himself in the firing line for the global (western) Tibetan Buddhist practitioners who are more important/easier for His Holiness to assert his spiritual prowess?
His global spiritual prowess will take him further than his political prowess of the TGIE, so why is he RISKING this?

[emptymountains]

His global spiritual prowess will take him further than his political prowess of the TGIE, so why is he RISKING this?

You might find the Wikipedia article on the Dorje Shugden controversy helpful:
 

From March 1996 onwards, the Dalai Lama decided to move more forcefully on this issue, which "is to be seen in connection with his interest in finding common ground in the main schools of Tibetan Buddhism so as to overcome precisely those exclusivist tendencies that Shugden is said to protect." By doing this, he responded "to growing pressure - particularly from other schools of Tibetan Buddhism such as the Nyingmapa, who threatened withdrawal of their support in the Exiled Government project."

(Quotes are from Martin Mills' Human Rights in Global Perspective.)

[Vajraprotector]

From March 1996 onwards, the Dalai Lama decided to move more forcefully on this issue (ban Shugden), which "is to be seen in connection with his interest in finding common ground in the main schools of Tibetan Buddhism so as to overcome precisely those exclusivist tendencies that Shugden is said to protect." By doing this, he responded "to growing pressure - particularly from other schools of Tibetan Buddhism such as the Nyingmapa, who threatened withdrawal of their support in the Exiled Government project."
(Quotes are from Martin Mills' Human Rights in Global Perspective.)

Let' see, I am not sure about the numbers but let me think aloud:

To continue to ban shugden and make this a HUGE issue, it will cost Dalai Lama to:

1 - disagree with and be on the bad side & protested by one of the largest Buddhist organisations NKT/ Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's centres and students- 1100 Kadampa Centers and branches in 40 countries around the world and growing

2 – create doubt in all his followers  (including famous Hollywood celebrities etc) who are readers who made his books bestseller (might be turned off with their idol being an antagonist in the major media)

3 - all other  Shugden lamas centres’ & students’ support, especially in the West : Gaden Trisur, Gangchen Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Venerable Kuten (Choijin) Lama (who has now 128-acre nature preserve to build)
Imagine if Dalai Lama admit he’s wrong – how many potential sponsors of the Tibetan government can come from all these Lamas and centres who can out-support the Tibetans AND the Nyingmapa who threatened to withdraw their support in the Exiled Government.

I think from financial point of view, it will be quite a huge loss to him, comparing to losing respects from the Nyingmapa, no?

Like what I said earlier, now that Tibet is lost, the spiritual prowess of the whole Tibetan Buddhist scene (more non-Tibetans than Tibetans) is more important than appealing to some Nyingmapa lamas to support his TGIE projects don’t you think?

These non-Tibetans are all educated and hence are drawn to Buddhism due to logic and study, not blind faith. Don’t you think Dalai Lama will appear “stupid” if he keep insisting the ban which is not logical?

Also, as far as I know a very famous modern Nyingmapa lama, (for modern people, we’re not talking about Tibet nor the Tibetan monasteries) Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche, the son of HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, and grandson of HH Dudjom Rinpoche. Like his predecessor, he is both a Sakya practitioner and committed to the furtherence of Rime. I don’t think he or his students will threaten withdrawal of their support in the Exiled Government project. Perhaps they don’t even get involved with TGIE? I do think Dalai Lama’s approach of promoting all four tradition is in line with the modern approach?

[Vajraprotector]

I really wonder who are the main sponsors/supporters of the Dalai Lama and TGIE, apart from the Tibetans themselves ? Are the Nyingmapa who threatened to withdraw their supports huge sponsors and promoting the cause of Tibet/ Dalai Lama far and wide?

As far as I know, people who are supporters of the Dalai Lama and his various projects funding – The Dalai Lama foundation, and others like Committee of 100 for Tibet, I think they can outsponsor those who threatened to withdraw their supports anytime. Also, Tibetan Buddhism scene is now all over the world, which is bigger than in TGIE or Tibetan communities.

Look at these people who are supporters of Dalai Lama & Tibet (Committee of 100 for Tibet), I am sure they can contribute a lot to TGIE than just a group of Nyingmapa who threatened to withdraw their supports? There are still many other foundations that supports Dalai Lama which I do not know about.

John L. Ackerly, International Campaign for Tibet
Frank Aiken, Jr., Engineer
Philip Anderson, Nobel Laureate for Physics
Dr. Oscar Arias-Sánchez, Nobel Laureate for Peace
Kenneth J. Arrow, Nobel Laureate for Economics
Tauno Auer, Aamutuuli ry., Finland
Mubarak Awad, Nonviolence International
Joan Baez, Singer/Songwriter
Peter Barry, Politician, Ireland
Edward J. Bednar, Jr., Tibetan U.S. Resettlement Project
Brent Blackwelder, Friends of the Earth
Richard C. Blum, American Himalayan Foundation
Michele Bohana, Institute for Asian Democracy
Pierce Brosnan, Actor
Guy Buffet, Artist
Rinchen Khando Choegyal, Tibetan Women's Association
Yvon Chouinard, Patagonia, Inc.
Ramsey Clark, Former U.S. Attorney General
John Cleese, Author/Actor
Cynthia G. Curley, Friends of Tibet
Rinchen Dharlo, Office of Tibet
Adolfo Pérez Esquivel, Nobel Laureate for Peace
George Fernandes, Politician, India
Robert Ford, Author
Jim Forest, Peace Media Service
Arun Gandhi, Christian Brothers University
Richard Gere, Actor
Benjamin A. Gilman, Gilman Group
Donald A. Glaser, Nobel Laureate for Physics
Philip Glass, Composer
Peter Gold, Author/Educator
Charles D. Gray, AFL-CIO
Pema Gyalpo, Law Professor
Lodi Gyaltsen Gyari, International Campaign for Tibet
Marvin Hamlisch, Composer
Mark Handelman, New York Association for New American
Hans-Adam II, Prince of Liechtenstein
Va'clav Havel, Author/Politician
Sauyer Hayama, Olympia Kohgyo Company
Reverend Theodore M. Hesburgh, University of Notre Dame
C. Douglas Hostetter, Professor of Sociology
Catherine Ingram, Author
François Jacob, Nobel Laureate for Medicine
Jörgen Johansen, War Resisters International
Rabbi Samuel E. Karff, Temple Beth Israel
Scott Kennedy, Resource Center for Nonviolence
David Kilgour, Politician, Canada
David M. Krieger, Nuclear Age Peace Foundation


So which is the BIGGER deal:
a)  that Dalai Lama lose support from these group Nyingmapas who obviously doesn’t support Dalai Lama anyway, in their action of threats  OR

b)  that Dalai Lama lose respect from global leaders & the movers of shakers of the world who could give him more money and support? And not forgetting being the “opponent” of all the Shugden lamas and their students who are a HUGE group now globally

If you are the Dalai Lama, why would you put your FUTURE with these movers & shakers (forget the small of group Tibetan supporting him) at stake to please a small group of people who obviously doesn’t want to support you?

[thor]

Trijang Rinpoche is given permission to practice Dorje Shugden, now why is that?

Statements like these from the Dalai Lama are merely political posturing, the Dalai Lama is trying to show he can control what all lamas do. 

That doesnt make much sense.

If Trijang Rinpoche is allowed to practice, then it follows that those around him will also practice. His assistants who are helping him will practice. His students and monks will practice.

For whatever reason Dalai Lama is allowing Trijang Rinpoche to practice, it proves that he doesnt believe that the practice of Shugden will really damage him / affect his long life.

It also proves that either
1) Shugden's practice will not affect the Tibetan independence cause
2) Dalai Lama doesnt really care about Tibetan independence

So what is the ban on shugden really about?

Dalai Lama is now the political and spiritual leader of Tibet. As a political leader, there isnt much power left cos Tibet is lost and unlikely to return to Tibetan hands. Even when he travels, he is recognised for his spiritual abilities first and as the leader of Tibet second. His claim to fame and his hold on power (if that is his goal) lies in the spiritual arena.

By enforcing this ban on Shugden, he is losing support in the Gelug community, evidenced by the emergence of the monasteries of Shar Gaden and Serpom. The Kagyupas are divided thanks to the two Karmapa issue. The atrocities committed by his followers in his name are only serving to alienate people in the West. His name is tarnished with accusations of human rights abuse, religious discrimination and court cases. The TGIE is doomed so no need to garner support from the other lineages. I see no logic in Dalai Lama's stance.

[DharmaDefender]

Dalai Lama doesnt really care about Tibetan independence

Well why should he when ultimately, he knows politics only lasts this lifetime? And people are only Tibetan for this lifetime?

If you want to support what the WSS say, which is that he's doing everything he can to sabotage the Tibetan independence cause, then yeah fine he is...but his motivation may be totally different to any other leader i.e. it's not because he's power-hungry, but he's doing it because Dharma's more important that politics. By ensuring Tibet can never be regained, perhaps then some people will give up the idea of independence and go back to the one thing they carried out with them (in some cases, literally) from Tibet, which is the Dharma.

[DharmaDefender]

The Tibetan Govt in exile has Gangchen Rinpoche on the Top ten most wanted listed. His picture with the other 9 most wanted are posted all over the 24 Tibetan Settlements throughout India and Nepal.

The Tibetan Govt in exile wishes all Tibetans to shun and ostracize Gangchen Rinpoche. Why else would they put up the wanted posters denouncing Rinpoche.

The Dalai lama has publicly denounced Gangchen Rinpoche on many occasions. On the Tibetan Govt's official website, they have a whole section against Gangchen Rinpoche. Sounds like the Governments of Burma and North Korea.

But Panchen Rinpoche very much likes Gangchen Rinpoche. In fact one of Gangchen Rinpoche's previous incarnation was the Abbot of Tashilunpo Monastery (the Monastery of Panchen Lama up till today).

Panchen Rinpoche and Gangchen Rinpoche have a very close relationship and do Dorje Shugden's Serkym (golden drink offering) together on occasion.

So the Dalai Lama denounces Gangchen Rinpoche, but Panchen Lama has Gangchen Rinpoche in High regard.

Dalai lama refuses to ever meet Gangchen Rinpoche, but the previous Panchen Lama will meet Gangchen Rinpoche easily.

Hehehe to me, it seems like it can mean only one thing - the TGIE are truly afraid of Gangchen Rinpoche in the sense they know how much influence he has. Why else would they devote so much time, energy and resources to denouncing him?

[thor]

whatever it may be, the 2nd highest ranking Gelugpa Lama will meet with a known Shugden practitioner. The previous Gaden Tripa has joined Shar Gaden. Dalai Lama's tutors both were strong practitioners of Shugden. Many many many high lamas and monks are practising either openly or secretly. Two new Shugden monasteries have sprung up. NKT is growing. More signs that the ban doesnt work and should be removed.

[harrynephew]

Favouritism is such an old game to play if we wanna go through that route to prooove who's right and who's wrong or who's on which side of the fence.

Please everyone focus on every Lama's good deed in their respective Dharma work. This will make our minds grow better and for their Dharma work to flourish forever more. Won't that be a better way of living/practicing Dharma?

[Lee Dhi]

How odd it is that the Dalai Lama would not want to even meet Ganchen Rinpoche and denounces him is public. Even politicians manage to be a little more courteous with each other on the public level. This situation will reflect badly on Buddhadharma.

I just read another article in this forum on Ganchen Rinpoche (Very soothing and beautiful amidst the chaos) that briefly introduces Ganchen Rinpoche and the good he has done including the centers he built, the healing he conducted all over the world and the great work of spreading the Dharma and bringing it to the international spotlight in a respectful manner.

How wonderful!