WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY?!!

[emptymountains]

Perhaps, but it all depends on if the DL was on good terms with his guru Trijang Rinpoche in his final years.  I have heard things to the contrary, but will refrain from saying much until there is more certain indication.

In Bernis' research (p. 50 of the pdf), she says that in 1980 the Dalai Lama visited Trijang Rinpoche "for the first time in several years." Doesn't sound like they were on good terms.

[LosangKhyentse]

much to consider and I heard this at the begining from someone.
So many experiences to reevaluate and reconsider with the perspective that tk has so elegantly presented this morning.

It all sound so nice and momentarily makes all the strife worthwhile, maybe.

I see what this might bring to Tibetans, but I am uncertain what it means to the World Peace at this time of incredible options, if we pursue peace and not war. The Dalia brings out the nastiness and does not appear to that of a lama. Unless he is as you say, working a survivial approach for Mahayanna Buddhism.
 I must say that Trijang Rinpoche did not appear to be in a cosmic ruse when we brought up the Dalia Lama.

I must say, I will need more time to reflect on this as a strategy and what words are best applied to bring about our wishes and results.

You are indeed a very honest person that speaks your mind. Your willing to evaluate a long held thinking when you read something that might fit better. Whether my theory is correct or your's is correct is not the point here. The point is your extremely honest.

Most important is to create peace within the minds of practitioners as much as possible of course based on the truth.

Thank you.

TK

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Oh please now, could you really pretty please do not use the "god has a bigger picture, whereas I'm just an unknowing idiot" -argument. It is so lame. And especially, it does not work very well in Buddhism................

..............A highly attained being having greater insight than us is not lame. Otherwise why take refuge in a Buddha. Do you know more than a Buddha? If you do, then you are right. Always right. Then why practice dharma? You wouldn't need to.

No offence intended to you. Just sharing my thoughts with you please. Thank you.

Somehow I think that my thoughts were not transmitted in this thread. But hey.... you cannot win, in samsara.

[Ensapa]

wow beautifully mind blowing and this resonates with what my Lama taught about his issue! My points exactly, but sadly i lack the factual evidence to back it up but u were able to. Thanks tk!

they were extremely clear and illuminating...

[a friend]

My Lamas were both direct disciples of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche. After the issue came into open light in 1996 they never ever gave the slightest justification for the Dalai Lama´s actions even though one of them was a personal friend with the Dalai Lama. Most on the contrary. Both were in their kadampa attitude entirely and utterly in disagreement with the Tibetan leader without the slightest restriction nor the slightest hint of the slightest justification. I can tell you that both were highly realized beings, peerless. Their holiness was so blatant that it´s almost irrelevant that both got that title --rinpoche-- that many others have had before and after them. And I can tell you under my heaviest karmic responsibility that they would shake their heads in disbelief if someone were to repeat to them the things that have been appearing in this website about the higher, unknown purpose of this sacrilege against Dharma that has been committed by the Tibetan leader.

Now, it´s true that my Lamas were gone from this world a while ago. When the horrid schism and persecution that started at the Winter Retreat in December 2007 and culminated with the forced campaign that produced  the complete extirpation of our people from all monasteries and communities, when that happened, here in this Forum we were some of us, at least me, still hesitant about denouncing the Dalai Lama, not out of the silly argument of his mysterious good hidden purposes but out of compassion for all those in the world who had him as an icon of goodness, as the face of Buddhism.

His actions in that Winter of 2007/2008 demanded that we protect the persecuted monks and thus we started here our international campaign of information about the Dalai Lama's persecution of a religious minority. Our hesitations were not correct any more, the most urgent, important thing was to protect the unprotected, and mainly our innocent monks in South India and elsewhere. So we started our actions. But in the meantime I had the occasion of talking to one of the few Rinpoches that openly belongs to our lineage living in the United States. I didn´t have my Lamas with me, and I knew what I had to do. But I thought of supplicating his kindness for a confirmation. This is a man Teacher of Teachers, a venerated Rinpoche from one of our big monastic institutions. A disciple of the old Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche too. And his answer was: IT IS CORRECT TO TELL THE WORLD THAT HIS ACTIONS ARE WRONG. I´m sorry guys. You can call all the oracles in the world, our Lamas are above all oracles. (And only the high Lamas can really know what oracles are saying but this is another matter.)

So we wrote and wrote and wrote and published everywhere we could. Of course, our campaign was magnificently overcome by the actions of the WSS: the extraordinary demonstrations of the Spring/Summer 2008, where you still can see the videos, and the people belonging to Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche´s labdang are in first line shouting their protest against the Dalai Lama in the face of the world.

THE WSS DEMONSTRATIONS SAVED THE MONKS. THE WSS DEMONSTRATIONS INSTILLED SUCH FEAR IN DHARAMSALA THAT THE DIRECT PERSECUTION IN THE MONASTERIES could not culminate in what had been announced by the Abbots of Sera to their Protector´s friends from Pomra: that the Dalai Lama not only wanted them out of the monasteries but out of India altogether. And this could not be acheived because of the fear for his reputation that the WSS demonstrations inspired the DL and his followers.
So dear Noobs, you can go on with your nice gospel, who´s to stop you. BUT AT LEAST THE READERS ARRIVING AT THIS WEBSITE WILL KNOW THAT YOURS IS NOT THE GENERAL OPINION OF THIS WEBSITE´S PEOPLE. Here we have too much respect for the Buddhas, whose main action as Buddhas is to teach us what to abandon and what to practice, and we do not like that they are betrayed by confusing people teaching them the opposite to their basic teachings: that what is wrong is right. It is not like that. The wrong of the Dalai Lama´s doings is to huge to be described in words. And your gospel is forcing us to proclaim it, now that we thought that we would stop talking about him because we are having some peace, due to the rise and prosperity of Serpom and Shar Ganden. No, now we have to defend the truth against the Noobs' gospel, instead of retiring to a desired silence.

Quite regularly I feel overwhelmed by sadness on behalf of the Dalai Lama. I've loved him dearly and never tried to stop loving him. How could I hate him while loving him? I can´t. So could you stop whining your niceties about not hating the Dalai Lama? Stop being absurd. Who is hating him? To love him has nothing to do with signaling his wrongdoings to the world when it´s needed.

[LosangKhyentse]

Dear A friend,

1. You are a global moderator. Yet I find your opinions very biased hence not matching the mission statement of this website. You should please read the MISSION STATEMENT of this website and what you are posting does not match the spirit of the website. Please encourage polite debate between those who are for, against and in between. It is all words anyway. But at least let ppl read the words and think both sides please.


2. I think you should stop your negativities against the 'noobs' whoever that is suppose to be. You are suppose to moderate not take sides. I am sorry to say to you.

3. There are ppl who are for DL and against. They all come on this forum, but you must make everyone feel 'welcomed' to a certain degree and not call their opinions re the Dalai lama their 'noobs gospels.'

Please stop criticizing the ppl who have recently joined as noobs. You shouldn't call them noobs. I find that very rude, unwelcoming and also unnecessary. Welcome everyone. Through patience, explanations, and kind words help ppl change their minds if you feel it is wrong. Don't ever tire of explaining again and again if you wish to be in a forum out of your care and compassion for ppl who are new to this forum, to the practice, to Dorje Shugden and the ban perhaps.

Let everyone express their thoughts for the Dalai lama, their higher purpose opinions, their dislike of Dalai lama opinions and whatever opinions anyone may have. It is healthy for a forum. Everyone should express without a moderator being biased in your dislike toward some people and their opinions.

I do apologize for saying the above to you, but I would request you to think of your position please.

Thank you,

TK

[a friend]

Dear TK,

I thank you very much for your kind opinion.
It´s time that again I repeat that this title of Global Moderator has nothing to do with anything else than watching for electronic attacks. Beyond that, I don´t moderate anything, I don´t have that capacity and I don´t exert it. I didn´t request this title, and I´m all ready to relinquish it at any moment. Actually if you are ready to watch for malicious electronic attacks I would right away request Administration to pass on the title to you, I would feel so much better, believe me. Actually, I´m proposing any of the old people of this website who would like to do this job (to have an eye for electronic attacks) to please let me know, I´ll ask Administration to award the Global Moderator title to whoever would like it.

About the Noobs, a cute name that somebody gave the group of people that all the sudden came to this website to defend what I believe is a very serious wrong view, I have to tell you that the use of the word "gospel" has nothing insulting, it´s a type of synonim for dogma of belief. The Noobs are welcome, and it´s evident that they are free here to express their opinion. But please do not ask me to welcome opinions that I consider wrong views, very harming for Dharma. I do not welcome opinions about the Dalai Lama´s supposed hidden good intentions. I didn´t welcome them coming from Beggar, whom I consider my friend. I don´t welcome them coming from a group of people whose concerted actions have intentions that I cannot fathom. Some people in this website have expressed suspicion about the Noobs' intentions, and I think with good reasons. I personally am not convinced one way or another.

Anyway, again, thank you for your opinion TK. One thing is sure, I don´t have any doubts about your good intentions.

[LosangKhyentse]

Dear A friend,

My only intention is TO SPREAD THE PRACTICE OF DORJE SHUGDEN AND TO CLEAR ANY MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT HIM.

And I am open to listen to any opinions that is related to Dorje Shugden. Whether they are right or wrong. Because I can learn from both.

This is my intention and only intention. I will never rest from accomplishing the spread of Shugden's gospel.


TK

[Big Uncle]

Dear A friend,

You have a right to your opinion as much as I do. I appreciate what you said but you are a moderator and like what tk said, you should be voicing more views that encourage discussion and not dissension! Now, it seemed that you are mobilizing yourself and others to suppress 'our gospel'. Well, actually there is no gospels, only opinions. I would appreciate if you don't label it gospels, it is derogatory.

[LosangKhyentse]

Mission Statement


This website, an ongoing work in progress, is dedicated to the glorification and deeper appreciation of the name and holy work of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who by peaceful, increasing, subjugating and wrathful means spreads in this world the general and profound teachings of the Buddhadharma that can dispel all suffering and its causes. We believe that what may sound contradictory today, will be revealed as skilful means in the future.

It is dedicated to the lineage Lamas, without whom the holy teachings would have disappeared, and without whose blessings, obtained by a pure bond of faith and reverence, the transmission is broken and the foundation of Enlightenment destroyed.

It is dedicated to the increasing number of aspiring practitioners who have been affected by the apparent controversy about the nature and intent of Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, whose enlightened mind and qualities have and are being recognized and relied upon by so many exalted Masters, some of them with reincarnation lineages all the way back to Buddha Shakyamuni.

We have no wish to convert or even convince anyone about this. In Buddhism we can only convert ourselves, by studying and applying the methods offered – if you practice Tara and become more arrogant and materialistic, it is a bad practice, as far as YOU are concerned. If you pray to Dorje Shugden and become more humble and committed to the Bodhisattva ideal, it is a good practice, as far as YOU are concerned. It is our thoughts, words and actions that make karma. It is our motivation that determines these.

We have a great wish to serve in healing the schism and doubts created in the minds of those new to Dharma or otherwise yet unable to look deeper and strive to apply the principles of non-harming and introspection on every level.

For those passing judgment on enlightened Beings (can you REALLY be sure who is and who is not?) – may we remind you of the Lamrim teachings where it is stated that converting anyone at the cost of their faith in their previous teachers or religion is equal to killing a thousand Buddhas. May we remind you that creating schism within the Sangha is one of the five “crimes of immediate retribution”. May we remind you of the Bodhisattva vow of never giving up Bodhicitta. If something or someone is harmful, misdirected etc., wouldn’t the sign of true practitioners be that their compassion grows?

For those who are influenced by these judgements – their door to Dharma may well close for this life, and who knows when such an opportunity will arise again. Anyone truly concerned could easily avoid the horrible karma created in this way, by truly practicing what they believe is good and becoming a shiny example of goodness and wisdom that speaks for itself.

It is dedicated to provide information and inspiration for those with an affinity to Dharmapala Dorje Shugden, based on writings, sayings, prayers and praises by enlightened Masters and their examples of wisdom and compassion, as well as on sharing interesting thoughts of intelligent people.

Much of our own thoughts and conclusions will have to remain in the realm of speculation, just like so much that has been written, as we are ordinary beings lacking the clairvoyance of the wise. We will, however, do so with the sole aim to present possible ways to see what arises as the display of enlightened minds, not the battle between right and wrong, so as to decrease afflictive emotions and actions and to invite us all to focus on our ongoing responsibility to look deeper; to look within.

“Drive all enemies into one,” as the old Kadampas said; the one (and only) enemy being of course the self-grasping and self-cherishing mind.


Extracted from:

http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=27

[a friend]

    Big Uncle: Now, now... Precisely when TK comes to terms with the word "gospel", and uses it himself, you get offended by it. Well, this is news to me that the word gospel in general or the word gospel in this particular meaning of "dogma" or "belief" was derogatory.
     Anyway, since you are new to this website you should know that here we are used to our different opinions. With Beggar we had a long battle that never got resolved about this issue of the imaginary Dalai Lama´s hidden good intentions. At that time he was the GB and he didn´t stop from voicing his own opinion. And I´m not planning to stop myself from voicing mine. The reasons I have for this I just stated them in my last posts.
    Änd let´s see: "mobilizing others against your gospel"? Is this a case of projection? If you made the effort of acquainting yourself with this website reading the old posts, you would see that before the newly arrived started their concerted mobilization against the WSS actions in this website (and apparently elsewhere too they say?) there was no mobilizing anybody against anybody. We had and we have individual personal opinions.

     No matter what, I´d be curious to know how this happened. Are you ready to tell us why and how all of a sudden you all decided to declare a D Day and chose this website as your Normandy?

Dear TK: as I said, we had a long, never resolved battle with dear Beggar about precisely this issue. I maintain without doubts the view that it is a wrong view to suggest higher purposes in the Dalai Lama's actions. I gave some reasons and I think they are good, since they try to defend the heart of Lord Buddha´s actions. But please you have to understand that I might not be giving all the reasons I have. There is a limit to the shame one is able to bear from talking about these matters. So please if we could leave the Dalai Lama alone and go back to our practice, as I´ve asked so many times, I would not be forced time and again to remind myself and others about his frightening actions. Why don´t we concentrate on our Je Rinpoche´s teachings, on our Protector´s actions and forget about all the negativity?

[LosangKhyentse]

Dear A friend,

1. You wish to emphasize DL's frightening activities, and you wish me to not mention the higher purpose.
Can we do the reverse? Or just keep on expressing what we both feel is right without restricting eachother, that would be nice. You will not think like me, and vice versa, so let's just keep up our happy foruming expressing what we both feel in freedom.

2. You wish everyone to only talk about Je Rinpoche's teachings, protector's activities and forget about all the negativities. Please do forget all the negativities and shame you have experiened, so when ppl talk about the Dalai Lama you will not be offeded. Please apply the teachings that you have learned to heal. Better to wear shoes then wrap the whole world in leather to protect your feet.

3. You and Beggar might had a long never resolved 'BATTLE', but I am not battling with you. I am not here to battle. Nor do I wish to battle with anyone here or anywhere. I am expressing my views with the beliefs I choose just like you.

I have a different opinion regarding what is happening and I have very good reasons for myself to believe it also. I maintain without a doubt that the Dalai lama and Dorje Shugden are working hand in hand to make dharma grow in the world. So when I mention these things and that upsets you or reminds you of the shame you had to bear, I am sorry for you. I truly am. I hope you heal.

But I cannot stop my beliefs because of your experiences. That is your experience and not mine. And I wish you gain peace, but that won't happen just because I stop talking about what you don't believe. Or when I do talk about it, you wish to do 'battle'. I am not here to criticize you if you believe opposite of what I believe. Your negative posts regarding the Dalai lama does not disturb me even slightly. Contrary, I find them interesting and I think them through always. I don't agree with them and if we met, I would discuss the same  issues with you with alot of laughter and friendly gentle debate over tea and cake. I would never get upset, riled up or aggravated in any way by your opinions that contradicts my own. It would be very lively session and I would always keep it that way please. So let's have our 'tea and cake conversations' on the forum please.

And I will CONTINUE TO EXPRESS MY BELIEFS REGARDING DL AND DS'S HIGHER PURPOSE AND Je Rinpoche's teachings/protector's action and any other subject I wish, but it is not to defy you, but you need to come to terms with what you went thru but not by controlling what I can and cannot express.

If my posts offend you, reminds you of the shame you have endured, then may I gently suggest to you not to read my posts (folded hands and apologies). Till perhaps when you feel better about it.

I am attracted to this website and have remained with it because of the mission statement. Due to the nature of the mission of this website, I feel it is unbiased and gives a platform for all to speak. If the mission statement changes, then I may not participate anymore.

I sincerely believe what I believe due to good reasons I have and I will continue as so. Again I apologize sincerely to you for offending you without wanting to in anyway. My opinions/posts are not directed at you. Please keep that in mind. Om mani padme hung.

tk

[LosangKhyentse]

In the future when the Dalai lama/Tibetan Govt's policies against Dorje Shugden fades and it will, then people will say the Dalai lama was wrong as he has set himself up for this. Just like when Dalai Lama said Trijang Rinpoche was wrong for disseminating this practice. Well he 'allowed' the current Trijang Rinpoche to practice again, so he left the imprints to be labelled wrong in the future.

We say Dalai lama is wrong. He says Trijang Rinpoche is wrong. We say Trijang Rinpoche is right. He allows Trijang Rinpoche (current) to practice. The tide will change. When it does, Shugden will be bigger than ever and his imputed negative reputations of the past will dissolve into emptiness as planned. I will not base my practice of Dorje Shugden at the expense of berating the Dalai Lama even slightly. Dalai Lama is doing what he is doing, but it will not deter me or make me dislike him. The ban will fade. The Dalai Lama's words against Shugden will be forgotten in near future and distant future.

tk

[dsnowlion]

TK Thank you for your thoughts and what you've shared from your heart.

It is very unbiased and I am certain many who are confuse, like myself, about this whole situation will appreciate very much to be more at peace with the possibility of DL and DS working hand in hand. Why because it is less agressive and extreme, good guy/bad guy, black/white all is very subjective in deed. Whatever WSS has done it is no doubt of great courage and we don't question their motivation. However this website does not belong to WSS and it's purpose a non-biased one as stated clearly in its Mission. Hence there are people of different opinions who have discovered this wonderful non militant site and decided to join as it seem fairer here to voice out our views without being called an idiot.

Dear friends, I am new too and my thoughts are along the lines of TK. Why because we trust in our Lamas and our Lamas have all in one way or another received teaching from Trijang Rinpoche and the Dalai Lama. Condemning the Dalai Lama is equivalent to condemning all Lineage Lamas and our Lamas too, so I cannot and will not. And if we say that we should only act upon what we perceive with our 5 senses then I guess there is no point in following Buddha for his teachings encourages us to think the impossible - Buddhahood. Then why even follow of trust in a Gurur?

"The noobs" are people who chooses to not pick up the stone and throw, is that so wrong?  If we do that how are we different from those who persecuted our Shugden brothers and sisters.

Thank you TK again, your thoughts makes me have more conviction in Dharma, faith in our protector Dorje Shugden, and trust in our Gurus including His Holiness. That is for me at least

[crazycloud]

Oh please now, could you really pretty please do not use the "god has a bigger picture, whereas I'm just an unknowing idiot" -argument. It is so lame. And especially, it does not work very well in Buddhism. If you claim that the evil done is not necessarily evil, because maybe you do not have the moral apparatus in your heart to make the judgement, or the necessary information in your brains, you are removing yourself from the humanity, you are placing yourself into the flocks of animals. If you claim that you are not capable of making moral judgements on your own, then there is no Buddhism for you. Really.

The argument or existential position of "God knows the best" or "the Party knows what we need" or "the Dalai will save us all" is no argument or position at all. It is merely the empty words of an automaton. It is not even existence. You could as well not exist. Not even you would miss you. To be, is to be human, and to be human is to be moral, and that requires moral judgement which is not given from outside, from the God or the Party. If you are, then you must be you. There is no other way. And as a human, you cannot say that an evil today is a big blessing tomorrow.

ZP- It is becoming increasingly pleasurable to read your posts here, thank you....

or to put it in noobspeak... wow! Gosh, ZP, this confirms exactly what I have always believed about our precious protector!!!!! 

btw, I really enjoyed your rather dark portrayal of what will happen after the passing of the current Tibetan Hegemon. Great implicit advice, cut yourself off from the floundering Tibetan union of politics and religion, or it will drag you to the depths along with it. Could you repost it here or remind me how to find it? I want to read it again and then send it too a friend...

it used to be you could find the substantive posts you had read here, but now the forum is clogged with so much miserable nonsense, it takes a long time...