All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...

[Atishas cook]

Ah, the good old "God works in mysterious ways" -argument.

Yippikayeehaa!

 

yes.  Hitler, Saddam and Dubya are probably all Buddhas - they certainly taught the disadvantages of samsara!  best not criticise them, i guess...   

[Lotus]

Seems to me to be quite a stretch for someone who is attracted to strife, controversy and politics ending up settling into Dharma practice in order to develop peaceful a mind. 

I have never met a person attracted to Dharma due to an attraction to controversy and politics.  Does anyone know of someone who has?  Some people on this forum say this type of practitioner exists.    Who are they?  Where are they? It would be interesting to hear their story (if such a person does exist!). 

xx

[Middleway]

Seems to me to be quite a stretch for someone who is attracted to strife, controversy and politics ending up settling into Dharma practice in order to develop peaceful a mind. 

I have never met a person attracted to Dharma due to an attraction to controversy and politics.  Does anyone know of someone who has?  Some people on this forum say this type of practitioner exists.    Who are they?  Where are they? It would be interesting to hear their story (if such a person does exist!). 

xx

I know of no such people.

[Big Uncle]

I don't think people get into spirituality or Buddhism because of the controversy directly. They get into it because the controversy generates a lot of publicity and get many people curious about the Lamas, the deity or practice. The amount of publicity the Dalai Lama created for Dorje Shugden is phenomenal and would have taken millions of dollars in publicity and promotions. I repeat, no one is going to come in Dharma because of the controversy but the name would be carried far and wide. 

[iloveds]

DS works in mysterious ways! Controversy does create attention, does create questioning, does create the interest. You know sex sells baby, and it selling quite strong today.

I hope that more and more people will come to dharma through unconventional means, you can't get much more uncoventional than to rip your reputation to shreds, and be the cause of people turning their thoughts into action. Whether its on the end of a placard protesting or at the end of a keyboard discussing in forums.

Its been awhile since this grand NOOOOOB visited the forum. There's soo much to catch up on.

[Lotus]

I don't think my question has been answered.  Do you know of anyone who has known nothing of Dorje Shugden, Buddhism even, and has learned of the controversy and, then became a sincere Dharma practitioner 'BECAUSE of the controversy'?.

And, I believe we also must say, that the number of Dorje Shugden practitioners in the world have DECREASED not increased due to the ban.  Tibetans in our area have to travel for an entire day's journey if they want to do their  Dorje Shugden practice in a Tibetan Temple.  They do not have anywhere else to go.  Not so long ago, this would have been unheard of!-Dorje Shugden puja was a community event.  Now it's just the way things are.   
 
The ban is not good.  It is suffering.  As Shantideva says, suffering does have good qualities: because we can use it to increase our compassion and our wisdom.  (Sorry...the direct quote escapes me now but I am sure that several of you  on this forum are familiar with the verse). 

The ban, in itself; no good qualities.

Something to contemplate.

[Middleway]

I don't think my question has been answered.  Do you know of anyone who has known nothing of Dorje Shugden, Buddhism even, and has learned of the controversy and, then became a sincere Dharma practitioner 'BECAUSE of the controversy'?.

And, I believe we also must say, that the number of Dorje Shugden practitioners in the world have DECREASED not increased due to the ban.  Tibetans in our area have to travel for an entire day's journey if they want to do their  Dorje Shugden practice in a Tibetan Temple.  They do not have anywhere else to go.  Not so long ago, this would have been unheard of!-Dorje Shugden puja was a community event.  Now it's just the way things are.  
 
The ban is not good.  It is suffering.  As Shantideva says, suffering does have good qualities: because we can use it to increase our compassion and our wisdom.  (Sorry...the direct quote escapes me now but I am sure that several of you  on this forum are familiar with the verse). 

The ban, in itself; no good qualities.

Something to contemplate.

thank you for injecting some perspective into this debate from the heart of where the outer problem is manifesting. Your speech has more power because of your proximity to the worst effects. Stupidly I hadn't thought of the obvious point you raise - there are MANY fewer DS practitioners now because of the ban. Clearly showing the effect it gives rise to.

[WisdomBeing]

I don't think my question has been answered.  Do you know of anyone who has known nothing of Dorje Shugden, Buddhism even, and has learned of the controversy and, then became a sincere Dharma practitioner 'BECAUSE of the controversy'?.

To answer your question, no i don't know anyone who has directly become a sincere practitioner BECAUSE of the controversy. But i have had experienced several times - people who were not interested in Buddhism but who had heard about the protests against the ban on the BBC (news station in UK) and brought it up over the dining table and i have had the blessed opportunity to EXPLAIN the real facts behind the ban. and no, they did not become Buddhists or DS practitioners (not yet but at least seeds have been planted.

And, I believe we also must say, that the number of Dorje Shugden practitioners in the world have DECREASED not increased due to the ban.  Tibetans in our area have to travel for an entire day's journey if they want to do their  Dorje Shugden practice in a Tibetan Temple.  They do not have anywhere else to go.  Not so long ago, this would have been unheard of!-Dorje Shugden puja was a community event.  Now it's just the way things are.   

i don't know if there are any statistics regarding the number of DS practitioners. I am SURE that many practitioners suffered and continue to suffer because of the ban. There are many DS practitioners who cannot practise openly and that is torture for them too. "it's just the way things are" is a good attitude though, because it is.

The ban is not good.  It is suffering.  As Shantideva says, suffering does have good qualities: because we can use it to increase our compassion and our wisdom.  (Sorry...the direct quote escapes me now but I am sure that several of you  on this forum are familiar with the verse). 

The ban, in itself; no good qualities.

I am FULLY in agreement with you there. FULLY. To me, it has no good qualities either. But i completely trust my Protector that all this happened for a reason, otherwise wouldn't he as a Dharma Protector who clears all our obstacles do so swiftly, especially as it is against his own practice. As he has not, i believe he has a plan in mind. Otherwise i have no faith in my Protector.

Something to contemplate.

indeed Tashi Delek

[Lineageholder]

I am FULLY in agreement with you there. FULLY. To me, it has no good qualities either. But i completely trust my Protector that all this happened for a reason, otherwise wouldn't he as a Dharma Protector who clears all our obstacles do so swiftly, especially as it is against his own practice. As he has not, i believe he has a plan in mind. Otherwise i have no faith in my Protector.

I believe that WSS, with the new book, is the plan.

Dorje Shugden is not God.  He cannot override our karma.  It seems that some people are waiting for 'divine intervention', as if if it were the case the Dorje Shugden didn't want the ban it would just stop.  Things don't work like that.  As Tsongkhapa said, we are tightly bound by the chains of karma, so hard to release.  Dorje Shugden is taking action in the form of the WSS to reduce the power of the Dalai Lama's speech.  If he really was like the being in the 'Yellow Book' that anti-Shugden people cling to, he would simply kill the Dalai Lama and that would be the end of the problem, but he's not like that.

Those who are actively opposing the Dalai Lama are creating the great fortunate karma of protecting Je Tsongkhapa's tradition.  For that, I'm grateful.  It can be the only good thing that's come out of this sorry political mess, but of course it would be better if it didn't happen at all.

[Lotus]

Hi WisdomBeing

I would like to clarify my point above. Sorry, my writing is clunky and I should be careful to be more clear.

When I said 'it is just the way things are' I in no way meant that my attitude was to accept quietly.  That is not a good attitude. The Tibetans that I spoke of above, do not have this attitude and are very appreciative of the WSS and its actions- they are part of the WSS! 

And Dorje Shugden did not create the ban. As we are agreed, the ban has no good qualities.  So it is impossible for Dorje Shugden to have created the ban.  Besides, from a Buddhist perspective, as Lineageholder says above, that really does not make sense.  Dorje Shugden is not God, not a Prime Mover,  he is not operating the universe from above and moving us around like pawns within it according to a Divine Plan. 

Our collective negative karma brought about the ban,- it is due to negative actions we have created in the past that we are a hair's breadth away from losing this precious lineage.  This is a negative karma almost too horrible to contemplate.  That is the reason all this happened - past negative actions.

We all know that the ban has lead to the decrease of Dorje Shugden practitioners.  I fully believe that it is the actions of the WSS that has greatly slowed this decrease. By standing up to the ban and NOT ACCEPTING it, the WSS has in effect created a powerful refuge in the minds of practitioners worldwide, giving them courage and faith in their practice, and realizing that they are not alone. This, is certainly through the blessings of Dorje Shugden.  By relying on Dorje Shugden, the WSS is in effect our Dharma Protector at work. 

[Atishas cook]

i would like to ask anyone still clinging to the bizarre notion that the Dalai Lama is in fact Dorje Shugden in disguise, or is at least working through Dorje Shugden's blessings to create this schism in order to spread Dharma farther:

if you think the Buddhas really can and do act in such ways, why then don't they simply kill everyone and transfer all our continua to a Pure Land?

absurd?  no more so than your idea, imho.

[Ensapa]

i would like to ask anyone still clinging to the bizarre notion that the Dalai Lama is in fact Dorje Shugden in disguise, or is at least working through Dorje Shugden's blessings to create this schism in order to spread Dharma farther:

if you think the Buddhas really can and do act in such ways, why then don't they simply kill everyone and transfer all our continua to a Pure Land?

absurd?  no more so than your idea, imho.

Ra lotsawa did that with a bunch of tantric practitioners. It is widely believed that Songtsen Gampo emanated 2 armies and have them fight each other to impress the Tibetans, then absorbed his emanations in order to tame the Tibetans. Marpa tortured Milarepa. Tilopa asking Naropa to steal, molest and jump off a cliff. So what's new? I dont find that idea absurd. The Dalai Lama has leaked out subtle signs that he is still on Dorje Shugden's side, just that due to circumstance he had to say what he did. Trijang Rinpoche, the previous one has already said that in future there will be a conflict and when that happens, one should not promote Dorje Shugden and despise Dalai Lama, nor promote Dalai Lama and despise Dorje Shugden. the message cannot be any clearer on how and what we should do. Even the current Trijang Rinpoche is urging everyone to not hate the Dalai Lama but to support him all the way (except with giving up Dorje Shugden). Dorje Shugden in a trance also said the exact same thing? So why would we want to challenge our own lineage Guru and the protector that we propitiate if we do not want to follow their advice?

Results speak for themselves. How many people out there know about Dorje Shugden as opposed to before the ban? Why is everyone talking about him now due to the ban? Although I am aware how much hurt and pain it has caused for Dorje Shugden practitioners all over, nothing is ever a good reason to hate anyone and to have hatred towards anyone, even if he is the Dalai Lama who started the ban. If you develop blind hatred for him, where is the result of your Dharma practice?

[WisdomBeing]

Ensapa, it is interesting for you to resurrect this thread. The argument still continues with regard to the Dalai Lama’s role in this whole tableau. Of course there are Dorje Shugden practitioners who refuse to believe that the Dalai Lama is acting from a pure motivation. This is because they do not see him as Chenrezig. For example, your references to Marpa and Tilopa are good comparisons because if people do not believe that Marpa and Tilopa are attained beings then they would think negatively about them. Likewise, if you do not think that the Dalai Lama is an attained being, you would think badly about them. Only time will tell, but in the meantime, I would rather trust someone much higher than myself – I would trust what the great Trijang Rinpoche said and not lose faith in the Dalai Lama nor Dorje Shugden.

[Ensapa]

Ensapa, it is interesting for you to resurrect this thread. The argument still continues with regard to the Dalai Lama’s role in this whole tableau. Of course there are Dorje Shugden practitioners who refuse to believe that the Dalai Lama is acting from a pure motivation. This is because they do not see him as Chenrezig. For example, your references to Marpa and Tilopa are good comparisons because if people do not believe that Marpa and Tilopa are attained beings then they would think negatively about them. Likewise, if you do not think that the Dalai Lama is an attained being, you would think badly about them. Only time will tell, but in the meantime, I would rather trust someone much higher than myself – I would trust what the great Trijang Rinpoche said and not lose faith in the Dalai Lama nor Dorje Shugden.

I resurrected this thread because i felt that it would be interesting to have the 'last say', not really to have the last say but to actually point out some facts and also to make things a bit clearer on the whole situation. The people who wrote those posts have long left the forum -- but their views and writings remain and perhaps, i could say something about them for the next person who comes along and reads it. It could help people look at something from a different point of view, different than what they would normally like to believe. Sometimes the view that we love to stick to the most would also be the most lethal to our spiritual progress, and as such, we should really see and re-examine our point of view sometimes and I happen to have logic and information that kinda conquers the point made by this person.

What I find the most interesting is as the previous Trijang Rinpoche had mentioned about what to do during these times, and that the protector himself has mentioned many times in trance to always support the Dalai Lama, why would people still choose to go against it or pretend to not understand? Not believing in the oracle is understandable, but ignoring Trijang Rinpoche's very clear advice is...an interesting behavior. But in any case, I have made my point and what happens from here, would be up to the reader's point of view.