All this "why can't we all just get along" stuff...

[Atishas cook]

ok everybody -

i've read, with some suspicion, frankly, here and in many other forums online, many posts recently from a few individuals (or one individual posing as many) revisiting beggar's old argument that the Dalai Lama is, in fact and contrary to appearances, an omniscient Buddha working in collaboration with Dorje Shugden to spread  the holy Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa throughout the world.

if this idea is sincerely put forward then i appreciate the good heart that motivates it.  however, many of those propounding this view appear to be incapable of accepting the repeated assurances of the DL's critics here that our criticism is not tantamount to hatred for him.  this makes it harder for me to believe that these proponents are actually sincere...

another view they are putting forward is that, while it is good to defend the holy lineage of reliance upon our Protector, the WSS has gone too far in organizing protests, and in publishing A Great Deception, and that the WSS' actions are harmful.  they say that we should "practise lojong" and remain quiet, thereby "setting a good example" of sincere Dharma practitioners.  again, i can't help but feel that this is a conveniently beneficial teaching with respect to the aims and intentions of the DL and TGIE...

so i call you out.  your view is wrong.  when a mad dictator tries to destroy a religion, and all attenpts at negotiation, discussion and debate have failed - well, then the time for sitting quietly has passed.  whether or not the Dalai Lama is in fact a Buddha is entirely irrelevant.  conventionally, his actions are those of a deluded person, a mad dictator.  when a Buddha manifests as a deluded being engaged in deluded actions, the correct - the only - response is to try to stop those deluded actions and protect the deluded being and others from its harmful effects.  to say "i will not help those who suffer in case it is all manifested by Buddha as part of his unseen plan to benefit all beings" is patently ridiculous.

please stop spreading your, apparently, good-hearted but finally extremely foolish and harmful wrong view.  if you as an individual do not understand the wrathful actions of the WSS and others, you are free to abstain from involving yourself.  but don't denounce or try to stop them, please; this only plays into the DL and TGIE's hands by trying to create division amongst his critics.  it is not helpful.

Now is the time to distinguish the truth and falsity of actions and effects...

with love, believe it or not,
Atisha's cook

[Big Uncle]

Dear Atisha's cook,

Just because several people share the same viewpoint, doesn't mean that we are the same person. Please bear that in mind. By the way, there are 260,000 people who come into this website and not all of them are just one person!

Love,

Big Uncle

[emptymountains]

Some doubt whether we know the Dalai Lama's intention, since we cannot know his mind. However, our Gurus have told us what the Dalai Lama's intention is, and we believe them because we believe our Gurus are enlightened. Of course, your Guru may have told you something differently than my Guru, and each of our Gurus has asked us to take different courses of action. The mistake is to then impose my Guru's or your Guru's views and instructions onto another Guru's disciple. Please, follow your own Guru's example, but don't assume this applies to other Gurus' disciples.

[LosangKhyentse]

Every disciple follows their guru's advice/views and hence applicable to themselves and perhaps not another disciple's.

But this is a forum and hence we are here to discuss, think, and hopefully the forum helps us to elevate our personal practice by sharing openly. So if we are not to share because we have our own views and it might not apply to another, we would not need a forum.

So I appreciate the many varied views of some I do not agree with at all. But that does not mean, it is wrong. Nor does it mean they have no right to express. Everyone may express. I learn alot quite frankly.

Thanks,

TK

[Atishas cook]

yes, well...  i'm all for discussion and freedom of expression.  i'm just having difficulty accepting the sincerity of all these new contributors.  it would appear that they've all decided to start propounding this frankly divisive view at the same time and in several different places online, which certainly looks like either sockpuppetry or a coordinated effort with a particular agenda: to find the faultline within the community of Dorje Shugden practioners opposing the Dalai Lama's ban, which is some practitioners' natural discomfort about engaging so publicly in wrathful speech towards such a well-known "Buddhist" icon.  it's difficult for me not to conclude that this is aimed at weakening and ultimately silencing his opponents.

for example, an alert appeared last week in my inbox about new comments on a post in quite another forum - an Apple computers blog i happen to subscribe to - on which i commented months ago re. the DL (it was a post about the Chinese government censoring an iPhone app containg DL quotes) by several of the same new contributors as have been posting here.  the topic was dead months ago, yet several new comments appeared on the same day from these folk - all trying to undo the damage i'd done in my comment to "His Holiness'" reputation.

so forgive me if I suspect their motives.  but whether they are simply naive or do in fact have a divisive ulterior motive, the results of their efforts are potentially weakening to our aim of defending our lineage for future generations.

if they're really naive, then i hope to make them think more clearly. if they're disingenuous and not what they seem - not Dorje Shugden practitioners at all but Dalai Lama sympathisers - then i hope to show them up.

one of them can't even bring him/herself to spell "Shugden" correctly, let alone write "Gyalchen Dorje Shugden".

[a friend]

I hear you Atisha´s cook, I hear you.
Obviously you are not the only one having the same doubts, many people find these people´s interventions divisive and suspicious. It´s true that here we were having discrepancies but we conducted ourselves as one family. Some of these people came here not only with arrogance but with sarcasm and obvious contempt. Threatening us with talking with their friend monks about how laughable our posts are!
One thing is clear: the Noobs came several together --I wonder, are they really so many, with fresh sweet arrivals and new voices?-- and they have the same external agenda. I´m not omniscient, I don´t know which their secret agenda is.

TK, we are all for freedom of expression. The fact to allow people to express themselves in the Forum does not mean that they are right. They have the right to express themselves, but that does not give them a certificate of correctness in their views.

Anyway, we should at least thank them for the entertainment. Because we are still wondering, are we not? what´s up with the Noobs?

[LosangKhyentse]

TK, we are all for freedom of expression. The fact to allow people to express themselves in the Forum does not mean that they are right. They have the right to express themselves, but that does not give them a certificate of correctness in their views.

Dear A Friend,

I totally agree with you. Just because they, you and me have the freedom to express as we like on the forum does not give any of them, you and myself the 'certificate' of correctness.

So should we keep on expressing or stop. I vote keep on doing it.

Thank you and everyone else that takes the time to express,

Tk

[Ensapa]

haha i had no idea i disturbed all of you so badly and when did i threaten you guys? how can that be perceived as a threat when all i said that the way some of the posts would make my monk friends laugh because they know whats really going on? when have Dharma practitioners become so paranoid and unsettling? is this the result of propitiating Shudgen? Please let me know it is not.

Just because I spell Shudgen in this way dosent mean that 'i cant spell it correctly' it just happens to be a different dialect. And i'm more comfortable with that one.

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe perhaps an extremely realized being has asked his disciples to perhaps, help you see the bigger picture which is why they come in here to not only help you realize but make this forum more active than it could be? Because he sees the big picture?

Especially because we are Shudgen practitioners we should not be BITTER or show our bitterness towards DL. What kind of example is that? Shudgen himself has ask his followers to respect DL in trances. Yet why do some people explicitly transgress this simple instruction?

i'm not telling anyone what to do but just a few points that i'm putting here for everyone to think about.

[Big Uncle]

Dear all,

I think this is getting ridiculous. What's wrong with the 'Noobs' expressing what we believe and feel? Who gave the authority of this forum to a few 'oldies' to decide what can be said in this forum or not? I am not trying to be rude but really... You guys put our opinions down so much that it makes me wonder why are you guys so insecure? I don't see many of the 'Noobs' put the 'oldies' down... So, it would be nice to more constructive threads instead.

P/s : What does it matter to you guys if I live in Malaysia or Sg? It is so strange to see that being brought up.

[LosangKhyentse]

Lhakpa,

I like what you said,"To be calm in the storm and know you are safe is perfect." When things go wrong in samsara we shouldn't be surprised as that is it's nature, it is when things go right, then we should be surprised.

The storm never subsides but our thoughts, realizations, understanding will keep us safe.

There will come a time in the future that we can practice Dorje Shugden without ostracization or ill will from others. There will come a time when Dorje Shugden's practice spreads without much opposition from within. There will come a time when all the bans/restrictions from DL/Tibetan Govt will fade and disappear. Until then, participating in this forum to express my faith in Dorje Shugden is one of the ways I can bring the 'golden age' to usher in faster. And I will express a moderate view freely always and dedicate it towards a resolution of the real problems otherwise why participate in a forum.

TK

[DSFriend]

The storm never subsides but our thoughts, realizations, understanding will keep us safe.

I really like what TK said as quoted. From our actions, are we adding on more to the storm when really, what will keep us safe is our thoughts, realizations, understanding. So often, in pursue for "rights", we fall into the trappings of our own egos where we start to take sides and fight for the "cause" when perhaps, this may not be what we need to do. I find to have this topic in this forum "..why can't we all just get along" is such a reflection of what goes out in this samsaric world.

What TK presented that ban/DL/TGIE will fade and disappear. This resonates well with me. Thank you TK for putting your thoughts so clearly. We will all be able to practice openly and freely one day. Isn't right now a perfect time to start practicing? Dorje Shugden NEVER slanders nor puts down DL. Would you want to take refuge in Dorje Shugden if he did. Can you imagine an Oracle taking trance and DS criticizes and plots how to get back at DL like what is said in this forum and many other anti-Dalia sites? I wouldn't! Thus, I am going to do my darn best to not act in contrary.

And yes, I am new to this forum and I do not have the power of emanation to simultaneously create all these personalities some of you think I am able to. I wish I could!!

[DharmaDefender]

Lhakpa,

I like what you said,"To be calm in the storm and know you are safe is perfect." When things go wrong in samsara we shouldn't be surprised as that is it's nature, it is when things go right, then we should be surprised.

The storm never subsides but our thoughts, realizations, understanding will keep us safe.

There will come a time in the future that we can practice Dorje Shugden without ostracization or ill will from others. There will come a time when Dorje Shugden's practice spreads without much opposition from within. There will come a time when all the bans/restrictions from DL/Tibetan Govt will fade and disappear. Until then, participating in this forum to express my faith in Dorje Shugden is one of the ways I can bring the 'golden age' to usher in faster. And I will express a moderate view freely always and dedicate it towards a resolution of the real problems otherwise why participate in a forum.

TK

Yes thank you TK for so sincerely sharing your thoughts. I do believe there will be a time when the ban fades and disappears, much like the ban on Tibetan travel to Taiwan faded and disappeared. Impermanence can be a bitch, but it can also be great in that nothing bad is ever permanent. Thus follows what a wise woman (my mother actually) once told me which is when things are going badly, smile and be happy because all is not as it seems. For one, there are good times to look forward to after the bad times and two, in relation to Dorje Shugden, it may be an exercise of purification for us. A test to create, as TK posted earlier, strongholds of Dorje Shugden practice around the world.

[crazycloud]

haha i had no idea i disturbed all of you so badly and when did i threaten you guys? how can that be perceived as a threat when all i said that the way some of the posts would make my monk friends laugh because they know whats really going on? when have Dharma practitioners become so paranoid and unsettling? is this the result of propitiating Shudgen? Please let me know it is not.

It's confusing.....

so there's more of that nasty speech energy I mentioned before, and yet....

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe perhaps an extremely realized being has asked his disciples to perhaps, help you see the bigger picture which is why they come in here to not only help you realize but make this forum more active than it could be? Because he sees the big picture?

..it seems he is here to help us on the advice of his highly realized master! In answer to the question, no, it hadn't occurred to me that someone who sees that big picture had sent the noobs here on a rescue mission.

Anyway, it's hard to be upset when people try to help you, however misguided their attempts. I, however, am more easily helped when not being bored by the  endless repeating of views I have already rejected, so  a bit of advice for all you helpers....maybe try a new tack. Like pretending to go along with me to win me over, and then helping me gradually. This often works with me.

Especially because we are Shudgen practitioners we should not be BITTER or show our bitterness towards DL. What kind of example is that? Shudgen himself has ask his followers to respect DL in trances. Yet why do some people explicitly transgress this simple instruction?

And there it is again, the view that if we speak out against obvious political mischief, we are bitter. Bit of a slow learner, this one....or maybe he has no intention to learn anything here at all, just comes to spam.... hard to tell..hmmmm...

ps we follow and take our instruction from our Spiritual Guides here, sir, not oracles, however reliable.

[Atishas cook]

once again, to those pushing the "just say nothing and wait for it to pass" agenda: regardless of your identities, loyalties and motives, it is my view, in common with many, many others, that now is not the time for such inaction. we believe that if we don't, now, denounce the DL and we allow him to carry on unopposed then there will very soon not be any Dorje Shugden lineage left at all to practise. this is the DL's avowed aim.

if your Lamas counsel you to keep quiet - fine. do that. but your attempts to "help" we who speak out to make the same choice and keep silent will not work.  give it up.

[dsnowlion]

I have no problem with others, including myself to express ourselves, that which is on our lips to share with others, is healing and makes things a little more certain. Bizarre that some of the kindest people in the world are Buddhist, now with hair on end, due to some electrical charge that has upset the balance.
 Whether this is all a dream, which it is, then time will tell if the Dalia is on a Cosmic Quest or just Fallen, as anyone else here on earth seems capable of doing in the Kaliayuga cycle.
 I have seen this forum as a space for healing to put to words the horrors that crashed my universe, to rebuild something that survived into something less fearful and more at peace.

 I believe the Protector creates that magical space that allows for any and all of us to find the center to meditate in the most perfect environment possible.
 
Something unites us all to consider all we say and find the truth out for ourselves as best we are able.

  Building walls is more difficult than tearing them down. I like the view without any walls and the one that causes me to see that in fact we all float as bubbles together on a brillant and bright infinite sea of joy and bliss.

  To be calm in the storm and know you are safe is perfect.

I like what you say Lhakpa Gyaltshen about believe the Protector creates that magical space that allows for any and all of us to find the center to meditate in the most perfect environment possible. What is perfect for me may not be for you but it is still perfect It's a fresher perspective and one that is a lot more Dharmic. It gives peace and comforts to shattered hearts in the maze of this manifestations of much contradictions. And Yes something is definitely uniting us all to find the truth out for ourselves as best we are able. And this forum like you say is "a space for healing" and "to rebuild something that survived into something less fearful and more at peace".


But somehow this post has voiced out a different agenda, but proclaims a "pure" motivation of "protecting Dorje Shugden's lineage from dying". Do we honestly have so little confident in our protector and all the high Lamas, our Gurus, ourselves that are practicing it? I mean c'mon what's happening here? It's like we've decided to express our love for Dorje Shugden by putting each other down to see who's view is right or wrong. Wow! I'm sure DS will be real happy listening to all this insecurities and our Gurus cheering us on. So if we're puppets to try to take the "middle path" then likewise I can say you are also puppets when you follow your Guru's advice and spam all over the media on how bad DL is, but I will not say that cos by saying that I am slapping not just you, but also your Guru, and indirectly Dorje Shugden b'cos he practice DS as well isn't it?! Instead why don't we share enlightening info like TK did or discuss how each of us will spread Dorje Shugden teachings to the person next to us! (I mean not literally but you know what I mean ... to benefit others & hence keeping the lineage alive???)

Yes there are obviously 2 views, there are obviously two roads. The road you choose to take may be "perfect for you" but not for me or everyone and that doesn't mean it is wrong for you or me either. There is no right or wrong really if you think about it, but just different consequences which will shape the negative or positive effects we'll experience later. At the end of the day nobody can stop anyone from what they want to do if they really want to go ahead and do what they want. So can we just share our thoughts without being abusive, belittling and condescending and posting topics that is not constructive to DS - No offense but that is so cheap.

We are also not saying we are going to do nothing and wait for it to pass. Not shouting and protesting doesn't mean we're just sitting around biting our nails. The very fact that this forum existing is b'cos someone did something positive and us posting in it with useful information that helps ppl think and heal and clear doubts about DS is doing something too and is positive too.

I agree Building walls is more difficult than tearing them down!

And I would take this good advice "To be calm in the storm and know you are safe is perfect".

Dorje Shugden's main role is to protect the Dharma so I don't think he will allow the Dharma to disappear, that is his purpose. I also don't think the Dalai Lama with all his might (if lets say he is the bad guy) can bring the Dharma down either. It would be all our collective karma if it happens not just his. Well, that is my opinion. Thank you.