Dalai Lama is a liar

[vajralight]

Whatever the flood of Noobs and those who want to see the DL as a Buddha may say, the DL is a liar and has created a lot of suffering for many people.

Only the actions of the WSS have diminished the persecution by the TGIE (under the instructions of the DL).
Only the WSS stands up to this dictator, politician in robes. What have the others done?
Nothing........... at least nothing that had any effect. Only the WSS people are not afraid to lose reputation etc. and speak out in order to save Je Tsongkhapas tradition.

If no one speaks up any more, there will be no karma for the lineage to survive. It is a dependent related phenomenon. We create the causes for the lineage to survive, by practicing purely and speaking out against the lies, we do not create causes to have Je Tsongkhapas lineage in this world by remaining silent when others are trying to destroy it.

May the world wake up to the deceit and lies of this imposter Dalai Lama.

Vajra

[a friend]

Well, again happy Losar to all.
We seem to have hit a rock right now. The two sides, with just a few nuances, have exposed their reasons, and have hit a rock indeed, since both sides invoke an ultimate authority backing their position: their own Gurus.
I have to say that some newbies --sorry, Noobs-- have become somehow more flexible, they seem to accept that there might be some function for the WSS´s position, even though they can´t share it.
Most arguments have been stated and the discussion even though still heated has to run out of gas, unless we accept to go on forever repeating the same reasons that the other side cannot take.
And now what? Shall we continue saying the same things again and again?
I have the hope that we might be able to go on talking, as is TK´s fervent wish.
If we could all of us start thinking on our own, looking for some middle way, some common ground, it might be useful. Otherwise we are going to end up with an actual schism among the Protector´s people.

Ok.
What I´m going to say doesn't sound very soothing, but I remembered something that might put the accusations against the WSS under a different light. The WSS is being accused of expressing hatred and having bad manners against the Dalai Lama. Well, beyond their intentions that are obviously good, do you know that they might have an excellent precedent for ther "rude manners"? Yes. Our forefathers from India, the old Buddhist sages of the holy Vikramashila monastery, when they didn´t approve the speech of one of their teachers, they tied up his writings to the tail of a dog, and released the dog in the city, for everybody to shout at those writings. When Lord Atisha sent "Lamp of the Path", for those sages to examine it, he was running that risk, he knew it and he didn´t condemn the procedure, he submitted himself to it. Happily for all of us his work was applauded, not attached to the tail of a dog.
So compared to this the WSS' manners become all of a sudden almost a Victorian lady´s manners ... this might help to put things in some different perspective ... or so I hope.

[Vajraprotector]

I agree that Dalai Lama is a liar – because he’s not saying what the REAL intention of his ban was, but merely disguising. But I will oversee the lies for my bigger picture which I believe will happen.

Many people are suffering, but perhaps that will benefit tremendous amount of people in the future – we cannot just see in one lifetime, else Dorje Shugden through oracles and his entourage would have told us to protest against the Dalai Lama! So far I haven’t heard of any advise like that through my monk friends.

WSS are not afraid of losing the reputation because what they will lose is NOTHING compared to the Dalai Lama who is the No. 1 icon of Buddhism who have brought so many people to the Dharma. I am sorry but WSS couldn’t bring as many people to the Dharma as Dalai Lama, especially now that their reputation is that of accusing the Dalai Lama to be false and so on (please read The Great Deception for more info).

As for no one speaking up and that there will be no karma for the lineage to survive. I have to disagree. A lineage survive due to sincere practitioners who uphold the lineage through adversities. For example, Tibetan Buddhism was not wiped out although the Tibetans were exiled. The old lineage masters and Geshes escaped Tibet and took with them their knowledge (through years of studies and memorizing texts) and promote it to the world despite the fall of Tibet.

[Lineageholder]

I agree that Dalai Lama is a liar – because he’s not saying what the REAL intention of his ban was, but merely disguising. But I will oversee the lies for my bigger picture which I believe will happen.

Not only this, he's a liar because he denied there even was a ban.  I could post footage from demonstrations in the USA where his representative Tashi Wangdi said "there is no ban". 

He has said what the real intention of his ban is - to destroy the practice of Dorje Shugden.  As he said in Caux in Switzerland in 1999:

“Until now you have done a very good job on this issue. Hereafter also, continue this policy in a clever way. We should do it in such a way to ensure that in future generations not even the name of Dholgyal (Dorje Shugden) is remembered.”

Please don't delude yourself!  There is no 'great plan' to make Dorje Shugden more popular. 

Many people are suffering, but perhaps that will benefit tremendous amount of people in the future – we cannot just see in one lifetime, else Dorje Shugden through oracles and his entourage would have told us to protest against the Dalai Lama! So far I haven’t heard of any advise like that through my monk friends.

Oracles can't be trusted.  I do believe that Kuten Lama, Geshe Kelsang's Uncle was a genuine oracle of Dorje Shugden but as for the others, I doubt it.  It's not wise to invest in oracles because you have no way of knowing if what they are saying is true or not.  Rely on the holy Dharma of scripture and insight instead, especially wisdom!

How do you know you're not being called to protest?  Monks in India have protested in the past and they were battered by the lay people under the thrall of the Dalai Lama's ban message.

WSS are not afraid of losing the reputation because what they will lose is NOTHING compared to the Dalai Lama who is the No. 1 icon of Buddhism who have brought so many people to the Dharma. I am sorry but WSS couldn’t bring as many people to the Dharma as Dalai Lama, especially now that their reputation is that of accusing the Dalai Lama to be false and so on (please read The Great Deception for more info).

It is not the WSS' job to bring people to the Dharma.  The Dalai Lama has stolen the teachings of his root Guru and uses them to increase his own fame and reputation.  The only thing that has improved in the Tibetan situation in the past sixty years is the growth of the Dalai Lama's reputation and his popularity amongst A-list movie stars and musicians.  Nothing has changed for the exiled community: he has achieved nothing for them.

When people learn that the Dalai Lama is a politician who is using the Dharma to increase his own power they are going to feel bitterly disappointed and let down, and their faith in Dharma will be shattered.  No matter how many people the Dalai Lama has 'brought to the Dharma' this will happen because he's not genuine or sincere.

s for no one speaking up and that there will be no karma for the lineage to survive. I have to disagree. A lineage survive due to sincere practitioners who uphold the lineage through adversities. For example, Tibetan Buddhism was not wiped out although the Tibetans were exiled. The old lineage masters and Geshes escaped Tibet and took with them their knowledge (through years of studies and memorizing texts) and promote it to the world despite the fall of Tibet.

No one has ACTIVELY PERSECUTED Tibetan Buddhists in the West, that's why it flourished.  The Dalai Lama is actively persecuting Dorje Shugden practitioners and people who meet the Gelugpa tradition through him and the Teachers who propagate his view, either through blind faith or fear, will meet a tradition with its heart torn out.  The Gelugpa tradition is dead if people are not practising Dorje Shugden.  Our only hope is that Tibetan Teachers, similar to the 101st Ganden Trisur, are practising in secret waiting for the Dalai Lama to pass away so that they can openly practice again, otherwise the Gelugpa tradition is dead in Tibetan society.  It will not continue.

Only WSS has the courage to speak out against the Dalai Lama and to put forth a view that, although it is the truth (the Dalai Lama is a fraud), is nevertheless unpalatable to those who wish to have a 'Shangri-la' view of Tibet and its history.  Through telling the truth, the Dalai Lama's power will be reduced or obliterated, in which case the lineage will survive and continue.  Anti-Shugden people laugh at the WSS figure of 4 million practitioners being affected by the ban, but in 1959 and before the Dalai Lama's ban this was probably an accurate figure if you take into account how many Tibetans are Gelugpas and how popular Dorje Shugden was.  You may think that the Dalai Lama's ban has made Dorje Shugden more popular, but this population is now decimated. I've seen people leave our tradition over this issue - lots - so don't tell me this is part of a great plan to improve the popularity of Dorje Shugden.  The Dalai Lama's plan is eradication, pure and simple.  Only WSS stands against him openly to challenge this so please don't denigrate their contribution to the freedom of a practice you claim to love.

[Atishas cook]

  The Dalai Lama's plan is eradication, pure and simple. 

yup.  what s/he said.

[Vajraprotector]

Please don't delude yourself!  There is no 'great plan' to make Dorje Shugden more popular. 
[quote/]

How do you know? Perhaps at your side of the world Dorje Shugden is not becoming more popular, but what about other places? and other times (in the future)?

Oracles can't be trusted.  I do believe that Kuten Lama, Geshe Kelsang's Uncle was a genuine oracle of Dorje Shugden but as for the others, I doubt it.  It's not wise to invest in oracles because you have no way of knowing if what they are saying is true or not.  Rely on the holy Dharma of scripture and insight instead, especially wisdom!

I belief in oracles and I am sure the monks in Shar Ganden, and Gangchen Rinpoche believe in oracles. Just because you don't believe or doubt them doesn't mean they cannot be trusted. I have heard many stories from my monk friends re many things that the protector has advised them and lead them to success. I also read that Gangchen Rinpoche consulted Dorje Shugden who has advised H.E. to make his healing activities big to benefit many.
Also, Dalai Lama himself benefitted from the Shugden oracle who advised him the route and to leave Tibet.   

How do you know you're not being called to protest?  Monks in India have protested in the past and they were battered by the lay people under the thrall of the Dalai Lama's ban message.
[quote/]
I look at Gangchen Rinpoche, Ganden Trisur Rinpoche and other Shugden lamas who continued their work and put their focus on promoting Dharma to others, more than asserting their rights to practice. I am not saying there shouldn’t be protest, but protest that involved monks screaming that Dalai Lama is a liar is a bit too much for me.

It is not the WSS' job to bring people to the Dharma.  The Dalai Lama has stolen the teachings of his root Guru and uses them to increase his own fame and reputation.  The only thing that has improved in the Tibetan situation in the past sixty years is the growth of the Dalai Lama's reputation and his popularity amongst A-list movie stars and musicians.  Nothing has changed for the exiled community: he has achieved nothing for them.
 

True. It’s not WSS’ job to bring people to Dharma, but it has brought negative image to Buddhism due to the protest – monks  and nuns on the streets screaming away at Dalai Lama in their ROBES. I think WSS can do a better job promoting Shugden with the resources and manpower that they have than doing protests. They can publish books, can organise people, have a great informative websites – if they shift their focus, perhaps more people can learn about Dorje Shugden and be interested in Je Tsongkhapa’s holy teachings, eg the Lamrim.

And A-list movie stars and musicians – the world listens and pay attention to them. They are the STARS, we have to face the fact although we do not necessarily like them. And to sum that “the only thing that has improved in the Tibetan situation” is merely Dalai Lama’s reputation, I beg to disagree. There are many who have come into contact with Buddhism through His Holiness, e.g. his best selling books, for example, The Art of Happiness, and many of those books translated into many languages. Dalai Lama also has made Buddhism well known through his meeting with many world leaders, spiritual leaders, conferences with scientists and so on.  Dalai Lama has brought Buddhism to great heights.

I am so sorry to say that I care more about Buddhadharma than the “Tibetan” situation. I am not Tibetan, my concern is Dharma and not politics. I look at Dalai Lama’s achievements in terms of his contribution to promote Buddhism, and not his political role. We all know that Tibet has a small chance to ‘fight’ against China, especially with the deteriorating TGIE.

No one has ACTIVELY PERSECUTED Tibetan Buddhists in the West, that's why it flourished.  The Dalai Lama is actively persecuting Dorje Shugden practitioners and people who meet the Gelugpa tradition through him and the Teachers who propagate his view, either through blind faith or fear, will meet a tradition with its heart torn out.  The Gelugpa tradition is dead if people are not practising Dorje Shugden.  Our only hope is that Tibetan Teachers, similar to the 101st Ganden Trisur, are practising in secret waiting for the Dalai Lama to pass away so that they can openly practice again, otherwise the Gelugpa tradition is dead in Tibetan society.  It will not continue.
[quote/]

I don’t think that if people are not practising Dorje Shugden, the Gelugpa tradition will die. Dorje Shugden is a protector practice, it is not the main practice. The main practice is the teachings of JE Tsongkhapa.
Also, Ganden Trisur is not practising in secret. He has joined Shar Ganden. The opening of Serpom and Shar Ganden have brought new hope that a new and great generation of Shugden masters and lineageholders will flourish in the world.

Also, NKT and other centres by Shugden Lamas are flourishing. Nobody can stop them from practising.
I am so sorry to hear about the plight of Tibetans who cannot practise in their communities but the fact is in the world out there, those who are NOT living in Tibetan communities can practise and can make the practise big. NKT is already making it BIG.

You may think that the Dalai Lama's ban has made Dorje Shugden more popular, but this population is now decimated. I've seen people leave our tradition over this issue - lots - so don't tell me this is part of a great plan to improve the popularity of Dorje Shugden.  The Dalai Lama's plan is eradication, pure and simple.  Only WSS stands against him openly to challenge this so please don't denigrate their contribution to the freedom of a practice you claim to love.

The population is NOW decimated, but it’s not forever. I have faith that Dorje Shugden’s practise will only become stronger, in line with the prophecies that DS will take over Nechung.

I applause WSS to make their voice heard and to make known to the world that Dalai Lama is not listening to their appeal. I feel they have contributed a lot , I don’t deny that, but I am just saying the methods are not that Dharmic, that’s all. I like the facts/ researches they have gathered, and the fact that they have made a stand made a statement to the world that DS practice is something that they hold sacred and they will stand up and speak up.

[Atishas cook]

vajraprotector -

there is nothing holy about the Dalai Lama - nothing except his holy Gurus, who he has utterly abandoned.

there is nothing unholy about wrathful actions, even when performed by monks and nuns in their robes.

i appreciate your good heart, but you are completely naive and confused.  why have you got a picture of this poor, deluded being - this liar, this samaya-breaker - as your avatar (next to our holy Protector whose lineage and practice he is trying to destroy!)?

the Dalai Lama IS a liar.  i'm sorry that he has deceived you, i truly am.  but deceived you he has - you and millions of others.  he's a liar - i have heard him lie directly myself.

[emptymountains]

The Dalai Lama's plan is eradication, pure and simple.

I wonder if your Guru is on this list (from 1997):

Now, think. I first started placing restrictions on Dholgyal about seventeen or eighteen years ago. If, to begin with, I had been firmer, it is possible that by this time there would not be much problem. To be frank, Kalsang Gyatso was not well established in England at that time. Twenty years ago too, Sera Med’s Gangchen Lama, was not well established either. Now, I am being quite clear about it. Similarly, twenty years ago, Gonsar Rinpoche was yet to put down any roots. Likewise, Yongkyab Rinpoche of Sera Med and Serkong Tritul from Ganden Jangtse. It is they who are presently spearheading (the opposition). So, if we had imposed strict restrictions twenty years ago and implemented them effectively, we would not have these problems now... My own stand is that these people are now proving to be the real living perfidious spirits. It’s just such a shame.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071018121559/http://dalailama.com/page.156.htm

On the previous page of the Dalai Lama's talk, perfidious spirit is used to translate darn sri, "the spirit of one who has deliberately breached his oath or commitment to his lama out of resentment and dissension."

[Lineageholder]

Now, think. I first started placing restrictions on Dholgyal about seventeen or eighteen years ago. If, to begin with, I had been firmer, it is possible that by this time there would not be much problem. To be frank, Kalsang Gyatso was not well established in England at that time. Twenty years ago too, Sera Med’s Gangchen Lama, was not well established either. Now, I am being quite clear about it. Similarly, twenty years ago, Gonsar Rinpoche was yet to put down any roots. Likewise, Yongkyab Rinpoche of Sera Med and Serkong Tritul from Ganden Jangtse. It is they who are presently spearheading (the opposition). So, if we had imposed strict restrictions twenty years ago and implemented them effectively, we would not have these problems now... My own stand is that these people are now proving to be the real living perfidious spirits. It’s just such a shame.

http://web.archive.org/web/20071018121559/http://dalailama.com/page.156.htm

It's very interesting.  If you compare this:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071018121559/http://dalailama.com/page.156.htm

with the latest version on the Dalai Lama's website:

http://www.dalailama.com/messages/dolgyal-shugden/speeches-by-his-holiness/dharamsala-teaching

You'll see that all this controversial stuff about other lamas has been edited out.  The TGIE are always trying to make the Dalai Lama look as if he is sweetness and light itself.  They try to hide the Dalai Lama's sectarian excesses and hatred.  I think it's called public relations 

Under the 'Messages' section, here are the topics:

Buddhism
Compassion
Environment
Religious Harmony
World Peace
Middle Way Approach
Tibet
Acceptance Speeches
Dolgyal (Shugden)

Considering the Dalai Lama's stance towards our glorious Protector and his persecution of his followers, completely contrary to compassion, religious harmony and world peace, the words 'compassion', 'religious harmony' and 'world peace' as headings make strange bed fellows in this list.  He might has well have written:

Buddhism
Compassion
Environment
Religious Harmony
World Peace
Middle Way Approach
Tibet
Acceptance Speeches
Religious intolerance and sectarian persecution

[Atishas cook]

no, no - it's all true.  Gurus?  wrong, yes, wrong.  practitioners?  nobody harming on them.  ban?  there is no ban - only advice.

everything is lovely.  i'm Father Christmas.  sign here and shut up.

[thor]

I'm sure the people behind WSS have a good motivation at heart and it has increased the awareness of the Shugden issue to a global level. As Thomas Canada says in his post, we would never have been able to achieve this without the controversy existing in the first place.

But if  defaming the Dalai Lama is the correct way to go, why is it that barely any of the highest Shugden lamas are speaking out against him? These lamas stand up for their practice and their loyalty to Shugden but speak not a word against the Dalai Lama.

Dalai Lama does his thing, they do their thing. Follow their example.

[Lineageholder]

I'm sure the people behind WSS have a good motivation at heart and it has increased the awareness of the Shugden issue to a global level. As Thomas Canada says in his post, we would never have been able to achieve this without the controversy existing in the first place.

But if  defaming the Dalai Lama is the correct way to go, why is it that barely any of the highest Shugden lamas are speaking out against him? These lamas stand up for their practice and their loyalty to Shugden but speak not a word against the Dalai Lama.

Dalai Lama does his thing, they do their thing. Follow their example.

Why are you concerned enough to admonish us?  They are speaking out.  It's very possible that the book 'A Great Deception' reflects their true views because we don't know who collaborated on it.  They can't speak openly because they will be persecuted.  In the past, those who have opposed the Dalai Lama openly have received death threats and some have been murdered.

[emptymountains]

You'll see that all this controversial stuff about other lamas has been edited out.

All of the Shugden articles in the newly redesigned website are cut off at some point, mid-sentence. I don't think the 'editing' was deliberate, just an oversight on their part. I'm sure they'd be happy to put it back, if they knew about it.

[thor]

I'm sure the people behind WSS have a good motivation at heart and it has increased the awareness of the Shugden issue to a global level. As Thomas Canada says in his post, we would never have been able to achieve this without the controversy existing in the first place.

But if  defaming the Dalai Lama is the correct way to go, why is it that barely any of the highest Shugden lamas are speaking out against him? These lamas stand up for their practice and their loyalty to Shugden but speak not a word against the Dalai Lama.

Dalai Lama does his thing, they do their thing. Follow their example.

Why are you concerned enough to admonish us?  They are speaking out.  It's very possible that the book 'A Great Deception' reflects their true views because we don't know who collaborated on it.  They can't speak openly because they will be persecuted.  In the past, those who have opposed the Dalai Lama openly have received death threats and some have been murdered.

The lamas who are practising Dorje Shugden openly ARE already opposing the Dalai Lama. They are 'affecting' the Dalai Lama's long life and the cause of Tibet. That is how many uneducated Tibetans see it. In their minds, that alone is enough to justify death threats because they don't know any better.

The current Trijang Rinpoche has had many death threats. Hence he is now living elsewhere for his safety. The past Zong Rinpoche has even had actual physical attempts to take his life. And all this is just because they practised Dorje Shugden. So to say that they don't openly support WSS because they fear death threats doesnt sound right to me.

The Great Deception, which is mainly circulated in the West will have very little effect on the Tibetan community. It is meant for a different audience altogether. And as you say, it may be possible that there are some high Shugden lamas behind the great deception. But no one has actually come forward to say so. Instead they practise quietly, hold their commitments, propagate the lineage and let Dalai Lama do what he is doing. FOR NOW.

[Atishas cook]

duldzin -

i stood next to tibetan disciples of several of these same high Lamas and protested outside the Dalai Lama's public "teachings".  they were representing their Lamas' views as their Lamas still felt unable to publicly speak out.  to practise openly but in private, or to have your disciples speak out, is very different from standing up and personally, publicly speaking out - that is very dangerous for most tibetans.  those i stood with knew this, and were prepared to accept the consequences, even if it meant their own death.  but the high Lamas, with so many dependents, cannot do this for the most part; i believe the majority of them would if they had no dependents to worry about.

why do you think the last Ganden Tripa had to wait til he had finished his term of office and secured the Trisur title before publicly defecting?  it wasn't cowardice!