CAN ANYONE ANSWER MY FIRST TWO QUESTIONS PLEASE? Thank you.

[LosangKhyentse]

Excuse my ignorance on WSS but can someone answer my questions 1 and 2 please? Thank you ahead of time.

1.   Why did the WSS protests stop? Or did they?

2.   Will they start up again? ( Protests was helpful)

3.   The protests did have effects. It made the Tibetan Govt in Exile more careful, wary, swallow some past statements, and lie further to cover.  In fact Samdhong Rinpoche had to say that the forced stick votes in the Monasteries and the forced swearing of abandoning Shugden was enforced by the respective abbots of each monastery which in fact is not the truth. It was the Dalai lama and TGIE who forced the abbots to conduct such offensive acts OR THE ABBOTS WOULD BE FORCED TO RESIGN AS IT HAPPENED TO THE ABBOTS OF GADEN SHARTSE AND GADEN JANGTSE MONASTERIES. They also had to change their words to say there is no ban but it is JUST advice. That was strange because if you don’t follow their advice, you are not allowed to participate in any mainstream activities with other Tibetans. You are on your own. That is not advice, but a all out ban or religious persecution.

4.   I wished the placards and chanting at the WSS protests didn’t say: “Dalai lama, Stop Lying!” I wished it had said, “Dalai Lama lift the ban, give religious Freedom.” In this day and age, it would not be prudent for any religious leader to have any bans. Bans are very negative sounding and make them look very narrow or fundamentalist. Bans would have caused more curiosity for ppl to ask more. The Dalai lama lying sounds too far-fetched to most ppl in their projections. But the word ban would raise suspicions perhaps. I am not criticizing the protests. They were clean, organized, sincere, effective to a point, expressed another view, gave voice to the many oppressed, and orderly. The fact that these protests could happen is amazing. Just my thinking.

5.   Geshe Kelsang Rinpoche, the illustrious master, can influence thousands and inspire hundreds of centers/chapters around the world. Similarly, the monks in Serpom Monastery and Shar Gaden Monastery have many qualified teachers who if given a chance can do quite a lot in the future. If one person like Geshe Kelsang Rinpoche can do so much because he is devoted, focused and true to his lineage, many more Geshe Kelsang Rinpoches are present and will be forthcoming from these monasteries. The Mayflower with two other ships sailed from England to the uncharted North America due to religious persecution in England to seek a place where they can practice their beliefs in peace. No one cared about them or thought they would even survive. Now look what has happened….USA is built on freedom of religion, etc and influenced many other nations to do so. It has its good and bad, but the good is more. So Serpom and Shar Gaden has that type of potential. No matter how inconsequential they may look to the TGIE now. We must support these monasteries. We must advertise/make known by any methods who they are and what they are doing. It is very important for the future for all of us to do so along with whatever we are doing now. Serpom and Shar Gaden Monastery will survive past the Dalai lama and TGIE (sorry). It is important for us to visit these monasteries, make documentaries, invite the teachers to come and teach in various countries and start up centres related to these two monasteries. They have the potential to spread this holy lineage to thousands of non-Tibetans around the world. It will be the non-Tibetans who preserve this precious lineage eventually is my guess.

6.   After the Dalai Lama passes away (sorry to say this also), TGIE will disintegrate. The Tibetan ministers/ppl with money will buy their way to other countries and not remain in India. Most Tibetans are dying to leave. And if they live in another democratic country, their rantings and ravings on the evils of Dorje Shugden will be mostly ignored, so the ban will fade in one way in that manner.

In Delhi today, it is a massive black market business. Buying visas to the USA is between Indian rupees 700,000-1,200,000 depending on your connections. Once you get your visa, you enter USA, and claim asylum and wait for your green card. MANY MANY MANY TIBETANS ARE DOING THIS and have gone. They finds sponsors to help them. The Tibetans will disband and scatter further all over the earth like ants after the Dalai lama. No other religious leader or leader can fill the role of Dalai lama as there’s no history of it, with the only one coming close was the previous Panchen Rinpoche (truly a strong, remarkable, powerful being). The Indian govt will not take Tibetan exiles politics, hunger strikes, free Tibet protests, land agreements in the 23 settlements, nor their religious bans. They will be sucked into the Indian mainstream without much political voice anymore. They will slowly ‘disappear’ into just survival. Most of the Tibetans living in exile have very little knowledge, understanding and exposure to anything beyond their own limited realities due to very poor education for the last 50 years in exile. Sad to say.

India will rather make friends with China. India’s leadership will change and go past the Dalai lama in exile era in the future. 1.2 billion Chinese are much more important than 150,000 Tibetans in exile. That is logic. India does not support any type of Tibetan Independence and this is while the Dalai lama is alive. Imagine in the future when he is not (sorry). Tibetans, their politics, their cry for freedom will fade as ppl need to get on with just surviving. Dorje Shugden’s name is huge now in the world. His name is larger than if his own ppl wanted to make it. When the ban starts to fade or Dalai lama has passed later, slowly (not very slowly though), ppl will ask about Shugden. Then all the young Shugden lamas, Serpom/Shar Gaden ppl, and we will explain, talk, initiate, gather friends, supporters, and make Dorje Shugden grow more but positively. The name Shugden now is negative. BUT THERE IS A NAME. The negative can be changed to the positive. The name is important. Negative and positive is dependent on circumstances. What we need is the name AND IT IS OUT THERE-thanks to the Dalai Lama. One strong Dagom Rinpoche, Geshe Tendar, Domo Geshe Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche or etc in the future can bring thousands of ppl in the fold. Imagine if they all go out full force. I am not waiting for them to do something. I am doing something. I don’t believe in waiting. We cannot expect the lamas to promote, or advertise Dorje Shugden or themselves all by themselves. WE HAVE TO ADVERTIES DORJE SHUGDEN AND THE LAMAS for them.. WE HAVE TO MAKE THEM WELL KNOWN BY VARIOUS MEAN. WE HAVE TO MAKE THEM POPULAR. WE MUST WORK ON THIS GOAL CONTINUOUSLY. I am doing so and will never stop.  My resources and energy are dedicated to Shugden.. I don’t want to sound too covert or so hardworking, but I mean it.  I have dedicated my life to Gyelchen Dorje Shugden, the King of Protectors.

I do not just post on this forum. I have other plans of which some have been done, some are in planning stages and some will fruition later.I am not the only one, as there are many around the world doing the same. I don’t care much what the Tibetan Govt says or Dalai Lama’s ban and I’m not afraid of it. It is a temporary 'setback.' They will fade. They are impermanent.

But Dorje Shugden’s name is the most popular in the world of Tibetan Buddhism around the world after Shakyamuni. I hope I didn’t brag too much re my work and plans, my apologies. Bottom line is I am, have been and will go all the way to make Shugden known and accepted. I do it peacefully, without offending, without breaking laws, gently but steadily.

The bans on Shugden by DL and TGIE will not hold water after they are gone. Dorje Shugden is immortal, they are not. Their plans to even wipe away even the memory of Shugden for the future will not be successful, because Shugden is fully enlightened and his existence/ability to help DOES NOT DEPEND ON Dalai Lama OR TGIE. Dorje Shugden can emanate in thousands, millions, billions of other forms to protect, teach, help in the three realms and ten directions way out of the reach of the TIBETAN GOVT IN EXILE. Beyond anyone's imagination. Anyway we cannot be so small to think that there's only earth and one dimension. Samsara is not just earth as you all know. There are countless existences beyond our scope of mind that sentient beings exist and enlightened beings manifest differently everywhere. Tibetan Govt is tiny compared to this spectrum. But back to planet earth, TGIE will fade in time not too far in the distance. Samdhong's name and TGIE will be forgotten. Dorje Shugen will not be forgotten and continue to re-manifest according to karma, time, circumstances and need.

DL is in fact helping Dorje Shugden become larger of course some ppl think he is doing it unknowingly and some believe on purpose…that does not matter. The point is that DORJE SHUGDEN IS BIG AND GOING TO BE MORE POPULAR. The TGIE should just keep quiet about Dorje Shugden, but instead they are making him bigger. They are quite illogical and primitive. Their most important agenda is to get 'freedom' for tibet or at least autonomy and they have failed in that miserably. Why did the Tibetan Govt in Exile lose their country in the first place?? Now the only claim to fame for them is THEY ARE TRYING TO DESTROY A SPIRIT NAMED SHUGDEN and saved the world. Imagine if Obama's claim to fame is he is trying to wipe out Satan from the US???!! That is how ridiculous it sounds. Have pity for the TGIE. I do.

In this post I have mentioned re the death of Dalai Lama a few times, I do not mean in any way I wish him to die. I do not wish harm on anyone.  I am just talking re the inevitable future. So please excuse me.

TK

[a friend]

TK, I'm nobody to answer your questions about WSS, but they have been answered I think in their website, and also here. If the Dalai Lama wants to strike again, then demonstrations will start again, that´s what I gather.
I liked very much your cosmic immense view of the actions of our Buddhas.
But back to our Earth, I´m not so sure of the dissolution of things after DL passes. I have the feeling that a lot of politics will reappear under other pretexts. I foresee that Tibetans, including the new monasteries, will want to go back to the fold, back to restoring some unity. That could be another nightmare, with double Trulkus for several Lamas, and even there might be fighting over the matter we are talking about here: Who was more faithful to the Protector, the silent ones or the WSS etc etc.
I would like a formula for taking the opportunity right now, for disentangling Buddhism from politics. How do we do this, TK? Because judging for the color of this website right now, a lot of undercurrents might clash once the Tibetan leader is gone. And then what?

[honeydakini]

I think, as with the passing or removal of any great leader, a nation/group etc will either sink and fall flat on its face, or like medusa hair, a few other great leaders will arise from that.

I hadn't thought thoroughly about the point that sadly, even more politics may arise within the monasteries and Tibetan communities themselves. I think that for non-tibetans it will be difficult to really quell it or play any major role within that (who are we for them to listen to us, etc) except to perhaps make it known through sharing of knowledge and encouraging open discussion on a more global platform.

I am more inclined to believe that it will be other totally new groups - such as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, or centres under great "independent" Lamas such as Gangchen Rinpoche who will arise and take the foreground and thus make the practices more widespread and well known. While i respect very much the monasteries and the hundreds of years of education and esteemed lamas there, the scenes on "the outside" is very vastly different and it will probably take "spin offs" from these great monasteries: perhaps revolutionary (haha) new monasteries such as serpom and shar gaden, or lamas from these monasteries who "break away" that will start up a whole new movement that makes DS totally arise, and which will be free of the old Tibet and the (by-then) stale Tibetan politics.

It's nice to take hope in this (a new year wish under a victory banner, perhaps?)  and i suppose to some extent we can already see this happening. There are many great Lamas who are NOT focusing on the politics of an old Tibet but reaching out to a whole new population of new generation Dharma practitioners, to share the teachings and especially Dorje Shugden's lineage with. And these people (like many of us on the forum, I believe) just WANT TO PRACTISE. This is the new generation of practitioners that will really uphold and preserve the practices i believe because they are coming in with the motivation of practice and not from an antiquated system of politics.

the future's bright, the future's red? I'd like to think so

[emptymountains]

I wished the placards and chanting at the WSS protests didn’t say: “Dalai lama, Stop Lying!” I wished it had said, “Dalai Lama lift the ban, give religious Freedom.”

It's not true--there is no ban.

[DharmaDefender]

I´m not so sure of the dissolution of things after DL passes. I have the feeling that a lot of politics will reappear under other pretexts. I foresee that Tibetans, including the new monasteries, will want to go back to the fold, back to restoring some unity. That could be another nightmare, with double Trulkus for several Lamas

My understanding is that as a Tulku and therefore one who is in control of their rebirths, lamas can emanate as more than one being?

Isn't the falling apart of the system in that way, with in-fighting and confusion, also the gradual dissolution of things?

I do believe the TGIE will fall apart because:

(1) there is no tradition of grooming leaders for succession
(2) the TGIE is built on the Tibetan independence movement as a fundraiser. This in turn is built on the Dalai Lama's image. Once he is gone, who is there to hold it together? The TGIE doesn't act independently enough to give it any credibility.

As tk has pointed out, Tibetans are still poorly educated, and many basic living needs are still hard to come by despite so many years of living in exile. Despite this, they devote part of their meagre resources to suppressing Dorje Shugden which isn't exactly the kind of pleasant stuff that donors want to sponsor and support once the Dalai Lama is gone.

As it is, the TGIE's rantings and ravings about Dorje Shugden are being ignored by everyone, except for when the Dalai Lama himself speaks about the ban and the protests make it into the media. Once the Dalai Lama has passed away, either the TGIE will leave, or hunger for power will take over and they'll be too preoccupied trying to fill the power vacuum to remember to implement a ban.

, and even there might be fighting over the matter we are talking about here: Who was more faithful to the Protector, the silent ones or the WSS etc etc.

Who cares?? faith is faith - I believe once you have it, you can't be even MORE faithful, like a cup that's already full.

I think, as with the passing or removal of any great leader, a nation/group etc will either sink and fall flat on its face, or like medusa hair, a few other great leaders will arise from that.

I hadn't thought thoroughly about the point that sadly, even more politics may arise within the monasteries and Tibetan communities themselves. I think that for non-tibetans it will be difficult to really quell it or play any major role within that (who are we for them to listen to us, etc) except to perhaps make it known through sharing of knowledge and encouraging open discussion on a more global platform.

Hahaha try it and you might face accusations of being a Communist spy stepping in to muddy the already-confusing waters of Tibetan politics

I am more inclined to believe that it will be other totally new groups - such as Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, or centres under great "independent" Lamas such as Gangchen Rinpoche who will arise and take the foreground and thus make the practices more widespread and well known. While i respect very much the monasteries and the hundreds of years of education and esteemed lamas there, the scenes on "the outside" is very vastly different and it will probably take "spin offs" from these great monasteries: perhaps revolutionary (haha) new monasteries such as serpom and shar gaden, or lamas from these monasteries who "break away" that will start up a whole new movement that makes DS totally arise, and which will be free of the old Tibet and the (by-then) stale Tibetan politics.

I agree with you - although the monasteries currently in existence are very holy and great, the new ones will be free from the cumbersome aspects of Tibetan politics.

Perhaps I am not wording this correctly, but the new monasteries and new generation of lamas have more exposure and a better understanding of how the world today works. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Gangchen Rinpoche, for example, have a better understanding of how to appeal to practitioners and non-practitioners around the world. I'm not saying they are better than lamas who are in the current monasteries, but because they aren't bound by the conventions of Tibetan tradition (as opposed to Buddhist practices, which they follow strictly), they have better chances of reaching out and cementing Dharma practice in many people.

[Lineageholder]

It's not true--there is no ban.

Ha ha ha!  So funny!    Doesn't this just prove that the Dalai Lama IS a liar?

We were right to call him that.  Someone who does not tell the truth is a liar.

[emptymountains]

I wished the placards and chanting at the WSS protests didn’t say: “Dalai lama, Stop Lying!” I wished it had said, “Dalai Lama lift the ban, give religious Freedom.”

Yes, my point was that in order for the Dalai Lama to "lift the ban," first he must "stop lying" about whether there even is a ban.

(Of course, that isn't the only lie.)

[thor]

But back to our Earth, I´m not so sure of the dissolution of things after DL passes. I have the feeling that a lot of politics will reappear under other pretexts. I foresee that Tibetans, including the new monasteries, will want to go back to the fold, back to restoring some unity. That could be another nightmare, with double Trulkus for several Lamas, and even there might be fighting over the matter we are talking about here: Who was more faithful to the Protector, the silent ones or the WSS etc etc.
I would like a formula for taking the opportunity right now, for disentangling Buddhism from politics. How do we do this, TK? Because judging for the color of this website right now, a lot of undercurrents might clash once the Tibetan leader is gone. And then what?

The new monasteries support the Sangha whose sole wish was to continue their practise of Dorje Shugden. They did not split due to power or political issues. When the Shugden issue disappears eventually over time, there is no longer any reason for these two monasteries to exist independently and I too foresee the monasteries returning back to the fold.

But I don't think there needs to be any debate over who was more faithful, etc. If our motivation is the same but methods differ, then there is no need for argument once the issue has blown over unless its our egos and our need to be right getting in the way. With the ban (or the non-ban) really out of the way, what is there to debate about?

[iloveds]

For a recap. definitely the tgie is going to dissolve there is not enough time, cohesion, motivation and effort for them to start to even stand on their own 2feet to do anything for the people. SO when there is no HHDL then its natural for the ban to disappear, for the monasteries to reunite, because in the end its all about MOTIVATION / PRACTICE.

Unless of course there is someone with the biggest ego of them all who will keep alive the "divide".

Next GEN Lamas, Dharma-6.0.2.1, sounds like a very modern approach to spirituality. Come on will we be having these same debates 10years from now, 20 years from now will you still be preaching the rights and wrongs of HHDL to anyone that will listen.

With so much time spent filling your head with these facts and figures, points of views how much time have you been practicing buddhism? I hope i will still be around for the day there is no enforcer, oppressor and no oppressed.

future does look bright indeed.

[DharmaDefender]

For a recap. definitely the tgie is going to dissolve there is not enough time, cohesion, motivation and effort for them to start to even stand on their own 2feet to do anything for the people. SO when there is no HHDL then its natural for the ban to disappear, for the monasteries to reunite, because in the end its all about MOTIVATION / PRACTICE.

It actually falls in line with what the WSS are saying, which is that the Dalai Lama has been trying to weaken the Tibetan government by creating a constitution that does not truly support a democratic system. By increasing their dependence on him, and not giving members of the TGIE a real chance to lead, he's setting the Tibetans up to fail when he's gone. Do you think this situation could be used as yet more evidence the Dalai Lama is setting the scene for Dorje Shugden to rise?

Regarding the monasteries reconciling, do you think we create the causes for the monasteries to NOT reconcile? Judging from the abuse both sides continue to hurl at one another, perhaps reconciliation is gradually becoming more distant. If it is about ego, many find it difficult to put aside...if it were that easy to put aside, we would be enlightened by now.

Unless of course there is someone with the biggest ego of them all who will keep alive the "divide".

Not someone, but maybe quite a few. Just because someone is a member of the sangha does not necessarily mean their ego has been extinguished. They may be many steps closer than us to destroying their ego but for some troublemakers, they are willing to act in favour of protecting it.

I hope i will still be around for the day there is no enforcer, oppressor and no oppressed.

I like that!

[Big Uncle]

I love such discussion because it allows us to look beyond the injustice and the consequences/opportunities that would arise from this whole mess instead of the smaller nitty-gritty details like the Dalai Lama lying about the ban etc.

Reality in my eyes is that the TGIE is functioning totally on the basis of the Dalai Lama. Once he is gone, the whole TGIE will collapse because we can see no future leader being groomed and there is a small chance that a few smaller leaders would appear either amongst the religious circle or even amongst the TGIE itself but their clout would be considerably smaller than what the Dalai Lama wields.

To me, Dorje Shugden will survive and become much bigger than it is right now just like what Tk said. Just look at this forum. I think everyone practices Dorje Shugden and do you think we will stop once the Dalai Lama is not around anymore? I am very sure that the Dalai Lama would not be capable of wiping out the practice because he is only leader of TGIE and not the world. What he says can't touch anyone within this forum (whom I assume are non-Tibetans) but what he says constantly propels his name into stratospheric heights that none of us here is capable of doing in our lifetime. There you go. Dorje Shugden would be huge and most of you guys will see it in your lifetime! My 5 cents worth...

[vajralight]

The ban will probably not dissappear since the DL has asked the Lamas to continue to eradicate Dorje Shugden practice even after his death. When the Karmapa will take over as the "spiritual leader" of the Tibetans, we will see. I do hope that he will not continue the persecution but he seems awfully tight with the Dl, so who knows.

The DL told Karmapa and Zong tulku to take over after his death (in "the unwinking gaze" documentary) and since the Karmapa is the most charismatic one I feel that he will definitely come out as the Tibetan spiritual leader and take over the role of the Dalai Lama.

Just my thoughts,

vajra

[DharmaDefender]

I love such discussion because it allows us to look beyond the injustice and the consequences/opportunities that would arise from this whole mess instead of the smaller nitty-gritty details like the Dalai Lama lying about the ban etc.

Reality in my eyes is that the TGIE is functioning totally on the basis of the Dalai Lama. Once he is gone, the whole TGIE will collapse because we can see no future leader being groomed and there is a small chance that a few smaller leaders would appear either amongst the religious circle or even amongst the TGIE itself but their clout would be considerably smaller than what the Dalai Lama wields.

Of course their clout is considerably smaller, because they haven't accomplished much! Results speak volumes; success shuts people up. Criticisms of the TGIE continue because they have neither results, nor success, therefore their talk continues to be ineffectual. The Dalai Lama has much bigger clout because he has success in spreading the dharma and bringing some end to people's suffering, however temporal (although many people here, I think, would debate the degree to which he is successful in this regard).

To me, Dorje Shugden will survive and become much bigger than it is right now just like what Tk said. Just look at this forum. I think everyone practices Dorje Shugden and do you think we will stop once the Dalai Lama is not around anymore? I am very sure that the Dalai Lama would not be capable of wiping out the practice because he is only leader of TGIE and not the world. What he says can't touch anyone within this forum (whom I assume are non-Tibetans) but what he says constantly propels his name into stratospheric heights that none of us here is capable of doing in our lifetime. There you go. Dorje Shugden would be huge and most of you guys will see it in your lifetime! My 5 cents worth...

I think it goes back to tk's post about how DS is formless and therefore not bound by samsaric conventions of the media, etc.

The thing is, we've been fortunate enough to have a practice that is not dependent on what the Dalai Lama does or says. For many people though, they practise in defiance of the ban which isn't a bad thing...at least they're practising! However, I'd really like to see more practitioners who are practising independently of the ban.

It's like how any 'good' lama will be, trying to cut your dependency on him/her from the moment you take refuge. If they were trying to increase your dependency on them, then it's about their ego and accumulating followers. In that case, why are you taking refuge with them? When your practice becomes independent, fueled only by your motivation to bring an end to suffering for all sentient beings, that's when the lama has accomplished a large part of their job.

A good example actually, is the TGIE, functioning totally on the basis of the Dalai Lama, as Big Uncle puts it. Their lack of independence from him is going to be the cause of their downfall when he's gone. That kind of downfall can be repeated in our practice should we choose to make it entirely dependent on our lamas.

[honeydakini]

Come on will we be having these same debates 10years from now, 20 years from now will you still be preaching the rights and wrongs of HHDL to anyone that will listen.

With so much time spent filling your head with these facts and figures, points of views how much time have you been practicing buddhism? I hope i will still be around for the day there is no enforcer, oppressor and no oppressed.

future does look bright indeed.

hah! Good point. It would be sad indeed if we were all still on this forum 10 years later still debating the same points about the rights and wrongs of DL. It would be so beyond that by then and it would be awful if we looked back and realised that all we'd done is "fill our heads with facts, figures and points of views". I guess we gotta ask ourselves what the real result is of us being here on this forum (I am not being deliberately belligerent here as this is a questions I also need to ask myself!) - what will we achieve? Does it cement our own faith in DS stronger so that our own practice soars? Does it help us gain a better understanding so we can work effectively to share this sacred practice and lineage with others so they can receive the same incredible benefits in their lives and practice?

Thanks for making us think. I certainly wouldn't want to be here 10 years from now still "preaching rights and wrongs!"

[DharmaDefender]

Come on will we be having these same debates 10years from now, 20 years from now will you still be preaching the rights and wrongs of HHDL to anyone that will listen.

With so much time spent filling your head with these facts and figures, points of views how much time have you been practicing buddhism? I hope i will still be around for the day there is no enforcer, oppressor and no oppressed.

future does look bright indeed.

hah! Good point. It would be sad indeed if we were all still on this forum 10 years later still debating the same points about the rights and wrongs of DL. It would be so beyond that by then and it would be awful if we looked back and realised that all we'd done is "fill our heads with facts, figures and points of views". I guess we gotta ask ourselves what the real result is of us being here on this forum (I am not being deliberately belligerent here as this is a questions I also need to ask myself!) - what will we achieve? Does it cement our own faith in DS stronger so that our own practice soars? Does it help us gain a better understanding so we can work effectively to share this sacred practice and lineage with others so they can receive the same incredible benefits in their lives and practice?

Thanks for making us think. I certainly wouldn't want to be here 10 years from now still "preaching rights and wrongs!"

Honeydakini, your response led me to return to iloveds's post, in particular "how much time have you been practicing buddhism?" It prompted my thinking - we can be in Dharma, but is Dharma in us?

Take E-Sangha as an example. I used to observe their activities and although they came across as the authority on Buddhism, the moderators there promoted one view only, theirs (so I do appreciate that this forum is far more open). The forum basically degenerated into a massive wall of hate, supposedly as a reflection of Buddhism. Hence although E-Sangha moderators appeared to be in Dharma and promoting Buddhism, Dharma wasn't really in them.

In relation to facts and figures, E-Sangha also showed me that although many people have a deep intellectual grasp of Buddhism, their practice isn't so strong...which ties in to something that was said on this forum about the differences between Buddhism and Dharma. You might know the ins and outs of karma, but if you don't practise it like you know it, what's the point?

Facts and figures are great in that they provide the logic that keeps many people interested in the Dharma, as it is a departure from people's usual reliance on blind faith. Facts and figures are also necessary because they help to clear up wrong view.

However, for the rest of us less intellectual beings, personal experience keeps us interested. And for the rest of us, unless facts and figures are disseminated in clear, laymen's terms, what's the point if we don't understand them? The wrong view will still exist. To me, jargon is an ego thing; it's a way of saying "I know more than you and I'm going to show it to you." Where is the compassion in that?

Let me just validate that - when I was part of an audience with him before he passed away, HH Dagom Rinpoche touched on how clear speech is compassionate. He said what we know about Dharma is but a tiny speck in the great pantheon of teachings and "if our lama were to explain Dharma's true essence to us, it would blow our minds" (his words, not mine). Hence in their compassion, our lamas explain only a little, and they explain it to clarify issues for us, not to confuse us further.

I'd like to add one more thing - I think forums reflect the monastic traditions very nicely. First, there's the aspect of debate. Second, there's the situation whereby everyone has different strengths. Some monks are excellent debaters, others show their devotion physically. It doesn't mean the less skilled debaters are any less holy, less attained, have any less of a chance at enlightenment, or have any less right to learn and practise (Cudapanthaka who gained enlightenment just by sweeping is an example of this). On a forum, like in a monastery, everyone has a different function. Some are here to learn, some are here to teach, some are here to observe. Because the learners and teachers are on different levels, does not make anyone's opinion any less valid.

And one final comment - if in 10 years we don't want to talk about the rights and wrongs about the Dalai Lama, why don't we create the causes now? Law of karma, cause resembles effect, effect resembles cause, right? If we keep focusing on the Dalai Lama's good and bad points forever, we're setting ourselves up to never break away from that.