The new Buddhist Revolution

[harrynephew]

Hey all,

Happy Losar!

I was thinking to myself over the past two days of how this entire DL and DS saga could make up to me. It’s just a theory based on what I know about Buddhism over the last few years which I have been lucky to learn from my venerable Lamas. It’s just a theory but base on sources, I like to believe this could be the answer to all our fights and quarrels over a Lama and protector issue.

Since the advent of Buddhism, we had debates and dialogues on which tradition is right from wrong. We segregate ourselves generally as Buddhists into three main traditions and call ourselves the Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana. How did these ‘vehicles’ or ‘yanas’ came about anyway? Was it mentioned clearly in the scriptures that there was ever a ‘yana’? No.

When Buddha taught, he didn’t address the Theravadin aspirants as “O, you of the Theravada vehicle, listen up!” or “You Mahayanists who want to be Bodhisattvas, better listen well”. Buddha simply addressed everyone as virtuous men and women – that’s who we are! In accordance with the 84,000 types of afflictions, Buddha gave 84,000 teachings in order to help us mature our minds. Buddha didn’t classify his teachings into any norm or any sects.

Having said that, the teachings somehow contradict itself as we see in the scriptures. At one point, Buddha may have said this but at another point, a view follows that contradict the initial. Hence, enlightened masters over the years compile scriptural teachings which they’ve meditated upon which is suited for a certain disposition of the mind and establish sects which focuses on practicing these teachings.

There were people who disapprove from other established schools of thought and there were peaceful protests. Those which survived until today have proved that the compilation of teachings work and serves its purpose. Sometimes they are backed up by power holders such as kings and emperors which are their main sponsors.

Based on these historical viewpoints, the current situation with DL and DS is rather unconventional as DL is supporting the spread of DS in a very contradicting way.  But the end result should be the same as what has happened in the past. It is based on the intentions and motivations of these two figures. They have never meant to harm anyone at any point of time.

HHDL is well known for his compassion towards humankind and even sat into different religious dialogues to help calm the minds of different faiths. Only a religious figure with zero ill will and supreme motivation would be able to do this. And in preserving the lineages passed down from holy masters of Buddhism, he has been able to salvage almost all of the sacred practices from India and Tibet, making it available and accessible to everyone today.

DS on the other hand is known to be the upholder of the sacred teachings for many ages now. From the biographies of previous lives, we see that he has brought Buddhism out from decline following the footsteps of his spiritual father Je Tsongkhapa. Even in trances, we see that he bears no ill will to his so called ‘rival’ DL but instead constantly requests his followers not to lose faith in the DL.

Summing up, the present saga that we see, experience and are undergoing currently is an upheaval of the different karmas needed to establish DS as a main protector of our world system for some time in the near future. As being beneficial in many ways, DS has helped from the highest Lamas such as HHDL to normal peasants in the field. Hence, a Buddha touches all walks of life will be the main source of refuge for people both already Buddhists and more so for those who are bereft without spirituality.

Speaking of which, after the cultural revolution, the people of China were ripped off their thousands of year old faiths and beliefs and is now slowly sprouting back into their culture. Slowly but sure, the mainland Chinese will regain its vitality by a new introduction of a new brand of Buddhism which suits the government’s favour – Dorje Shugden.

With the current uproar in China’s economy, there’s a chance that China becomes mainstream in the world’s economy. Then China will be the trend setter for every available genre in the world: fashion, music, movies, technology, science and even religion!

Coming back to the initial basis of the theory, Buddhism will go through a phase of streamlining as it has in the past with the different yanas and this will help the masses of new age people in the near future.
Comments and feedback to this possibility? Just thinking out of the box rather than going round and round with the same facts which doesn’t seem to get us anywhere in discussion.

Thanks!
Love and light 2010,
HN

[a friend]

Dear Harrynephew, I understand that you are trying to find some goodness, some ground for unity, and I commend you for trying. Nevertheless, good things cannot be established upon untruths.

The Buddha had this ability that only Buddhas have, to preach one thing and have everybody in his audience understand whatever it was that was needed for them to understand personally. The Mahayana (with its two Yanas: Sutrayana and Tantrayana) was not a "a posteriori" invention of Lamas. This is the academic version. But the Buddhist version is that the lesser vehicle with the greater vehicle (both S and T) arose simultaneosly in the mind of the disciples, at the time of Lord Shakyamuni, according with their individual capacities.

It´s beyond my understanding what this has to do with the destruction of Dharma like the one DL has been displaying unceasingly for decades now. Because he does not have the capacity of a Buddha of giving to each what everyone needs, he's tried to invent his own brand of Buddhism, his forced mixing up of the beliefs of all schools, and since these are not enlightened actions he has to enforce them through force, with his political power.

It´s exactly the opposite of Lord Buddha´s ways. Lord Buddha allowed his teaching to flourish in every mind according to the disciple´s capacities. This of course gave rise to a variety of schools, needed for those who were in accord with them. The Dalai Lama is doing the exact opposite: he is trying to destroy that variety through an enforced union, he is destroying Dharma. He is destroying the Dharma of Lord Buddha. He is destroying the Dharma of our lineage of Mañjushri Tsongkapa Lobsang Drakpa. Unfortunately, this is the bigger picture, bigger than the persecution of a deity and its devotees.

[Lineageholder]

Because he does not have the capacity of a Buddha of giving to each what everyone needs, he's tried to invent his own brand of Buddhism, his forced mixing up of the beliefs of all schools, and since these are not enlightened actions he has to enforce them through force, with his political power.

It´s exactly the opposite of Lord Buddha´s ways. Lord Buddha allowed his teaching to flourish in every mind according to the disciple´s capacities. This of course gave rise to a variety of schools, needed for those who were in accord with them. The Dalai Lama is doing the exact opposite: he is trying to destroy that variety through an enforced union, he is destroying Dharma. He is destroying the Dharma of Lord Buddha. He is destroying the Dharma of our lineage of Mañjushri Tsongkapa Lobsang Drakpa. Unfortunately, this is the bigger picture, bigger than the persecution of a deity and its devotees.

*applauds*

Thank you, friend, for stating things so clearly.  May this wonderful clarity arise in the hearts of all who are genuinely wishing to uphold the tradition of Manjugosha Losang Dragpa

[honeydakini]

For the sake of argument, let's put this WHOLE DS/DL "controversy" and "face-off" aside and consider Dalai Lama on his own and Dorje Shugden on his own.

Yes, those of us in the know of this whole issue and the "insider" politics of what is happening may feel that Dalai Lama's actions are not in accord with Dharma and that he is not representing Dharma well. We are gauging what he is doing within the context of these events, the "ban", what he has said about Dorje Shugden's practice etc

HOWEVER, there remain millions of people out there in the world who remain completely unaffected by this issue and probably don't want to have anything to do with it or don't care or don't know (yes, there do exist a population of the planet who never read or listen to the news or current affairs). For many people, the dalai lama was their first introduction to the Dharma and to Buddhism - perhaps they didn't even take him as their Lama but attending a teaching or hearing about him has inspired them to find their own holy Lamas, take refuge and begin practice.

These people may only ever have contact with the Dalai Lama through his books or tapes. Through him, they are learning about mind transformation, the four noble truths, the teachings on compassion. Some people may argue that it's hypocritical etc but these people who are reading his books don't know that. They are simply taking the teachings - together, probably, with other readings - and trying to apply them to their lives. There was some talk here about how people do not dislike the dalai lama but dislike his actions. In the same way, these people out there may not wish to be particularly associated or connect with Dalai Lama but like his teachings.

However it is, it cannot be denied that the Dalai Lama has had a profound influence on bringing buddhism to the world and raising awareness of it / introducing the practices to millions in countries as far-flung as Bulgaria, New Zealand and Peru.

But there are also places that the dalai lama cannot reach or access, such as China (due to particular current situations or the karmas of people in these places).

So we turn our attention then, to Dorje Shugden, who in his own right is also spreading the Dharma - in a rather unconventional and unexpected way, yes, but he is still bringing the dharma to others.

If we examine these two beings independently, it cannot be doubted that they ARE both spreading the Dharma, which is what they had set out to do in the first place. Methods vary, definitely but ultimately, the dharma is accomplished - this has been witnessed constantly in the works of the great sages, as Harry Nephew has illustrated very well in his examples of Shakyamuni's own seemingly contradictory ways.

I'm an eternal optimist and I'd like to believe that there really is a pot of honey at the end of every rainbow, no matter how stormy the weather.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

This is an interesting point that honeydakini brought up. I feel an urge to comment:

There is a difference between Buddhism and Dharma. Many people feel intrigued by Buddhism, especially by the colourful traditions, but it is just a fad, a fashion. When the Dharma hits the face, people usually turn away. Dalai and many many others might be capable to get people to attend some talks and such, but hey... if you have any idea of what it means to be a Buddhist in the "Tsongkhapian sense" you might immediately see, that there are very few Buddhists in the world. Most Tibetans are not. Most monks are not. (There is even an old Kadampa saying concerning this: "Be careful, since the old Strhavira in front of you might not be a Buddhist!") So, while the Dalai of course is able to remind people throughout the globe that there indeed exists this thing called Buddhism, it is suspect whether he can make a single true Buddhist "convert". (Heck, according to the socio-economic theories, in fact, when there is a state monopoly, it hampers the natural spirit of endeavor, thereby in fact reducing the overall output - so maybe without the Dalai there might be more "Buddhist PR-tours" arounfd the globe. But yeah, who wants that? I don't.) I really doubt that the Dalai has spread the Dharma anywhere. He has made Buddhism fashionable perhaps, in some circles of the West, but really... it has nothing to do with the Dharma. Why? Dharma is horrible, utterly horrible, whereas Buddhism and Dalai are soft, mellow and cool.

As to the Protector, well, as he is a Protector, he does not spread the Dharma. It is not a Protector's job to do so. To use an agricultural metaphor, the Protector merely takes care of the seeds and sprouts, but does not sow the seeds anywhere. He is a caretaker of the existents, not a spreader, speculating on the futures.

The only person capable to spread the Dharma is a practitioner, in his or her own societal setting. There is no-one else.

[Lineageholder]

Is the Dalai Lama qualified to transmit the Dharma?

If you think about it, the Dalai Lama has broken samaya with his Guru.  He once said that Dorje Shugden practitioners were not his friends, so that includes Trijang Dorjechang, quite apart from his pronouncements that his Guru was wrong and his attempts to blackmail his incarnation to give up the practice of Dorje Shugden.  If he has no lineage, what is he passing on to others?  He's not transmitting anything.

There are some good things.  If anyone goes to his teachings, they will see an image of Buddha which will place imprints on their minds and they will hear Dharma words (possibly, although there is a YouTube video of the Dalai Lama completely failing to explain to a young woman how to develop compassion through meditation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_iWlOpT0Bo
	Small | Large

).  This is a good example of how the Buddhas will make the best of a bad job and try to help living beings by giving them imprints through ANY means!

Come to think of it, who gave him authority to teach Dharma?  Either he's a 'rogue' teacher with no lineage or his kind Gurus (the ones whose teaching he rejected) gave him permission.  Even though he tries to own the Dharma, it's through their kindness that he's so famous.

[Geronimo]

Love is the great protector, protecting us from anger and jealousy, and from harm inflicted by spirits. When Buddha Shakyamuni was meditating under the Bodhi Tree he was attacked by all the terrifying demons of this world, but his love transformed their weapons into a rain of flowers. Ultimately our love will become the universal love of a Buddha, which actually has the power to bestow happiness on all living beings.
 
(Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, Eight Steps to Happiness: the Buddhist Way of Loving Kindness, p. 124, © 2000)

[Geronimo]

Ultimately our love will become the universal love of a Buddha,
which actually has the power to bestow happiness on all living beings.


What a wonderful image for all of us.

[harrynephew]

Dear Harrynephew, I understand that you are trying to find some goodness, some ground for unity, and I commend you for trying. Nevertheless, good things cannot be established upon untruths.

The Buddha had this ability that only Buddhas have, to preach one thing and have everybody in his audience understand whatever it was that was needed for them to understand personally. The Mahayana (with its two Yanas: Sutrayana and Tantrayana) was not a "a posteriori" invention of Lamas. This is the academic version. But the Buddhist version is that the lesser vehicle with the greater vehicle (both S and T) arose simultaneosly in the mind of the disciples, at the time of Lord Shakyamuni, according with their individual capacities.

It´s beyond my understanding what this has to do with the destruction of Dharma like the one DL has been displaying unceasingly for decades now. Because he does not have the capacity of a Buddha of giving to each what everyone needs, he's tried to invent his own brand of Buddhism, his forced mixing up of the beliefs of all schools, and since these are not enlightened actions he has to enforce them through force, with his political power.

It´s exactly the opposite of Lord Buddha´s ways. Lord Buddha allowed his teaching to flourish in every mind according to the disciple´s capacities. This of course gave rise to a variety of schools, needed for those who were in accord with them. The Dalai Lama is doing the exact opposite: he is trying to destroy that variety through an enforced union, he is destroying Dharma. He is destroying the Dharma of Lord Buddha. He is destroying the Dharma of our lineage of Mañjushri Tsongkapa Lobsang Drakpa. Unfortunately, this is the bigger picture, bigger than the persecution of a deity and its devotees.

Actually there's always two sides of a coin in every case.

I take your view that HHDL is destroying the sacred Dharma of Je Tsongkhapa in this reference. At the time of Lord Buddha, a similar figure was doing the same thing as what you've mentioned. I'm referring to Devadatta, Buddha's cousin at that time. Actually, his case was worse as he is directly hurting the Buddha himself which is the source of this cycle system of Dharma. But Buddha let him run his due course and in the end predicted that Devadatta will arise as a Pratreyka Buddha in the future after going through his retributions.

Buddha's means of teaching Devadatta was to let Devadatta hurt him in order to create the karmic link for Devadatta to be able to meet with the Dharma again in the future and be able to practice it to gain attainments.

With this analogy in mind, even if we don't think HHDL is a Buddha as according to many holy master whom have written in their biographical records that he is, would a high emanation of the Lord of Compassion be able to put himself into the firing line by 'Destroying the Dharma' in order to plant seeds and create fertile grounds for the people of this earth to be able to get in touch with Dharma?

Look at how many different sets of people the HHDL had touched ever since he has set himself up in exile in Dharamsala? From politicians to different figures in almost every field has seen or heard about the Dalai Lama. They even often refer him to the Buddhist pope. Aren't these living results of what a real emanation?

To further this case, with the ban from the Dalai Lama re DS, how much exposure has DS gotten from the entire world? How has this ban contributed to the China nation taking DS as their practice because of their dislike towards the Dalai Lama? We're talking abt 21% of the world's population hearing and supporting this maglign deity who is able to 'destroy' DL called Dorje Shugden?

I see it as a world Buddhist renaissance, it can't be that simple for an established being (chenresig) to just hit himself by the head and go against his own words? Illogical.

hear my few cents out

cheers,
HN

[harrynephew]

This is an interesting point that honeydakini brought up. I feel an urge to comment:

There is a difference between Buddhism and Dharma. Many people feel intrigued by Buddhism, especially by the colourful traditions, but it is just a fad, a fashion. When the Dharma hits the face, people usually turn away. Dalai and many many others might be capable to get people to attend some talks and such, but hey... if you have any idea of what it means to be a Buddhist in the "Tsongkhapian sense" you might immediately see, that there are very few Buddhists in the world. Most Tibetans are not. Most monks are not. (There is even an old Kadampa saying concerning this: "Be careful, since the old Strhavira in front of you might not be a Buddhist!") So, while the Dalai of course is able to remind people throughout the globe that there indeed exists this thing called Buddhism, it is suspect whether he can make a single true Buddhist "convert". (Heck, according to the socio-economic theories, in fact, when there is a state monopoly, it hampers the natural spirit of endeavor, thereby in fact reducing the overall output - so maybe without the Dalai there might be more "Buddhist PR-tours" arounfd the globe. But yeah, who wants that? I don't.) I really doubt that the Dalai has spread the Dharma anywhere. He has made Buddhism fashionable perhaps, in some circles of the West, but really... it has nothing to do with the Dharma. Why? Dharma is horrible, utterly horrible, whereas Buddhism and Dalai are soft, mellow and cool.

As to the Protector, well, as he is a Protector, he does not spread the Dharma. It is not a Protector's job to do so. To use an agricultural metaphor, the Protector merely takes care of the seeds and sprouts, but does not sow the seeds anywhere. He is a caretaker of the existents, not a spreader, speculating on the futures.

The only person capable to spread the Dharma is a practitioner, in his or her own societal setting. There is no-one else.

I applaud your comment re Buddhism and Dharma. There is much truth in what you say.

I just like to add.

Yes, we term DS as a protector. But I believe that he is more than just a Protector. If we know Tibetan Buddhist history well, we can tell that no other protector will take trance in a form of a Lama. (tell me if there's another one) We've seen the oracles of DS in a high Lama's regalia taking trance of him and he will speak the Dharma just as the great lord Dulzin Drakpa Gyalttsen did during the peak of his age. How can he not be spreading Dharma?

If Panchen Sonam Drakpa is the Gaden Tripa, abbots of the 3 Seats of Geluk, a Tantric master, do u think the mental continuum of such an erudite master will abandon his spread of the Dharma? I don't think so.

The Buddha himself had said "I am the preacher and I am the person who requests for the teachings". An enlightened entity has this ability to make this work. As such, I can daresay that DS can make this new revolution work.

[honeydakini]

The only person capable to spread the Dharma is a practitioner, in his or her own societal setting. There is no-one else.

I can't agree with this more. Indeed, we are only able to influence those around us most by our actions.

I also like what you have said about what Lineageholder said about how in any setting or scenarios, there will be something good that will come of it, e.g. imprints of a Buddha image during teachings etc.

That said, I think this is how Dalai Lama has still, in some way, been successfully in "luring" people into Buddhism (yes, Buddhism first.) For many people, he will be their first entry point into Buddhism because of the global name, the nobel peace prize and the massive link between him and Tibetan Buddhism going out into the world.

I believe that many people probably won't take him directly as a Guru - if nothing else, because he's too far away and it's not easy to receive frequent, close and personal teachings from a Lama as busy as him. Or because they don't even have the opportunity to meet him. But by that first encounter - whether it's by a book, on a video, or even in a news article, it will (as lineageholder points out) plant some imprint in their mind. Even if it's just a Buddha image or an image of robes. Many people will probably be inspired to go away to find their own lamas and centres. I mean, this is happening with many other teachers as well such as ajahn brahm who is well known through the modern world and via the internet etc. many people don't take him as their teacher but listening to him inspires them to find their own teachers, look for their own centres within their hometowns.

I believe this is a large contribution towards Dharma and the promotion of buddhism that Dalai Lama has lent especially in the early 60s / 70s before the controversies, politics etc came to the fore. By then, after that first connection through DL / his name / his represnting tib. Buddhism, many thousands of people like you and me have gone on to find our own teachers. By now, many years on, our faith in Dharma, through our teachers and the incredible Dharma they are giving us, will not be shaken even if we see politics happening; we will still practice.

Perhaps that's what he has set out to do.... when he passes away (which is *with respect* not long now as he's quite old already), then all the politics / controversies are left in a void. All the other younger lamas and teachers - OUR OWN TEACHERS - and the practices and lineage that they carry will take over... and this includes DS. DS (and all the incredible lamas who are making him and Dharma practice in general grow in the world) picks up where DL leaves off. Nicely choreographed!

[honeydakini]

The only person capable to spread the Dharma is a practitioner, in his or her own societal setting. There is no-one else.

By the way, another thing I'd like to add to this which always fills my heart with a lot of joy and gives me immeasurable hope in the whole situation (which can sometimes look very bleak):

I think another very beautiful and incredible and effective way of promoting DS is to PROMOTE THE LAMAS WHO ARE DS PRACTITIONERS. Instead of focusing on DL (and the actions which some may or may not agree with), let's look at the beautiful Lamas who are DS practitioners and look at what THEY are doing - their amazing acts of kindness, Gangchen Rinpoche's huge contribution to healing for the planet, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's massive contribution to bringing the heart of kadampa teachings to the world through many comprehensive books and teaching programmes, the huge temples and monasteries that these Lamas are building which will give so many more people access and imprints of Dharma and practice.

I remember I met many DS lamas before i even heard of this controversy. I was a naive little Dharma virgin then and all I thought was "wow these lamas are incredible." I couldn't believe i was meeting being like these. To  me, their kindness and compassion was a miracle and attainment (let's not talk about flying in the sky and all that hocus pocus) because how many people can live, breathe, act, sleep, eat kindness the way they can? (I'm sure you will all relate, if you just think about your own lamas).

When i found out about the DS controversy later on, and then heard (shock horror) that these very same lamas I had "fallen so in love with" were on a wanted hit list because they were DS practitioners, my faith in them and DS never moved at all. I thought to myself then, "If these beings practise DS, then it must be a good thing. Even if it's not a good thing, what these lamas are doing is still beyond what I can ever achieve in terms of compassion and kindness - and that is definitely a good thing".

I love that this website has a lot of good stuff on the Lamas - just look at their photos and you'll wonder how on earth they could ever be associated with something "negative" or "evil. It's ridiculous!

Like Zhalmed Pawo said, "the only person capable to spread the Dharma is a practitioner" and these lamas really practice in every sense of the word. They teach Dharma and inspire millions onto the path just by their example. They show the world that DS can only be a good, enlightened and beautiful being. They prove to us why we shouldn't ever forsake DS because staying loyal and true to him (and all the practices they teach us) can only bring us to that same amazing, enlightened, compassionate state as them... don't we all want that

[DharmaDefender]

I think another very beautiful and incredible and effective way of promoting DS is to PROMOTE THE LAMAS WHO ARE DS PRACTITIONERS. Instead of focusing on DL (and the actions which some may or may not agree with), let's look at the beautiful Lamas who are DS practitioners and look at what THEY are doing - their amazing acts of kindness, Gangchen Rinpoche's huge contribution to healing for the planet, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's massive contribution to bringing the heart of kadampa teachings to the world through many comprehensive books and teaching programmes, the huge temples and monasteries that these Lamas are building which will give so many more people access and imprints of Dharma and practice.

The eternal optimist arises I very much agree with you on this. If everyone feels the issue has become one big witch hunt, then why not turn the tables and focus on the positive? It might be the airy fairy view but that's how the world works for many who like to see good and hope in everything. Let's create more practitioners to spread the Dharma by highlighting the good that those lamas do.

But forgive me for asking - we accuse the Dalai Lama of not having a lineage and therefore not having anything to teach / spread. Some cynics may turn that argument around, saying that many DS lamas have broken guru samaya by virtue of ignoring the Dalai Lama's ban, and therefore it is not appropriate that we promote them. Of course, we know this is not true and it would not be possible for those lamas to accomplish so much benefit if they lacked the merit to do so, but how do you answer to someone who says those lamas abandoned the established Gelugpa order by practising DS, and therefore are not Gelugpa practitioners and have lost their lineages?

Zhalmed Pawo makes valid points about Dharma and Buddhism but I don't quite agree with the conclusion. I believe that some Buddhism (whether truly Dharmic or not) is better than none at all which is why I very much believe that HHDL does benefit others. Through him, they may not become true converts, tantric practitioners etc but they will become exposed to teachings such as the 8 Verses of Mind Transformation which they otherwise may not have ever heard of. Remembering something as 'simple' as that will constitute as spiritual training, and it will benefit them even if only for this lifetime. I mean, if it helps them to become a little less angry or snappy, or bring a little more awareness into their lives, why not? At least they'll suffer less in the time being and plant the seeds for future lifetimes,

[WisdomBeing]

By the way, another thing I'd like to add to this which always fills my heart with a lot of joy and gives me immeasurable hope in the whole situation (which can sometimes look very bleak):

I think another very beautiful and incredible and effective way of promoting DS is to PROMOTE THE LAMAS WHO ARE DS PRACTITIONERS. Instead of focusing on DL (and the actions which some may or may not agree with), let's look at the beautiful Lamas who are DS practitioners and look at what THEY are doing - their amazing acts of kindness, Gangchen Rinpoche's huge contribution to healing for the planet, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's massive contribution to bringing the heart of kadampa teachings to the world through many comprehensive books and teaching programmes, the huge temples and monasteries that these Lamas are building which will give so many more people access and imprints of Dharma and practice.

I remember I met many DS lamas before i even heard of this controversy. I was a naive little Dharma virgin then and all I thought was "wow these lamas are incredible." I couldn't believe i was meeting being like these. To  me, their kindness and compassion was a miracle and attainment (let's not talk about flying in the sky and all that hocus pocus) because how many people can live, breathe, act, sleep, eat kindness the way they can? (I'm sure you will all relate, if you just think about your own lamas).

When i found out about the DS controversy later on, and then heard (shock horror) that these very same lamas I had "fallen so in love with" were on a wanted hit list because they were DS practitioners, my faith in them and DS never moved at all. I thought to myself then, "If these beings practise DS, then it must be a good thing. Even if it's not a good thing, what these lamas are doing is still beyond what I can ever achieve in terms of compassion and kindness - and that is definitely a good thing".

Dear Honey Dakini

You really are quite sweet. I love your positive energy and like your attitude. I also met HE Gangchen Rinpoche a while back, when I had NO idea about the Dorje Shugden controversy. I had NO idea about Dorje Shugden then too! However, I just fell in love with Gangchen Rinpoche's energy and have been every since.

I've not met Geshe Kelsang Gyatso but I have visited his beautiful centre in Ulverston. If we look at results, Lamas like these two have spread the Dharma through their centres worldwide.

I think that in this forum we have reached an impasse where there are forum participants who disagree on their attitudes to the Dalai Lama. Instead of focusing on our differences, which we should just mutually respect and beg to differ, i wish we could focus on our similarities instead, which is our faith in Dorje Shugden.

Just my wish for this new year.

[honeydakini]

I think that in this forum we have reached an impasse where there are forum participants who disagree on their attitudes to the Dalai Lama. Instead of focusing on our differences, which we should just mutually respect and beg to differ, i wish we could focus on our similarities instead, which is our faith in Dorje Shugden.

Just my wish for this new year.

WHOOT! I like that! Let's have a little loving, it being the valentines' month and all that. I think we should start a new posting which will make us all not look at this ban for awhile and look, instead, at what it is that we love DS, our great faith, believe and love of him and how he has helped us to become better people doing better practices. Just look at all the wonderful prayers that you can get here - contemplate what the prayers always advise us which is true Dharma practice, compassion and wisdom. Onward onward with a truly magnificent and beneficial spiritual future.