Author Topic: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo  (Read 10480 times)

crazycloud

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The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« on: February 20, 2010, 08:08:53 PM »
Often when reading about the Dorje Shugden Controversy online, one encounters quotations that are supposedly drawn from the works of Je Pabonka rinpoche. For many Tibeatna Busshosts, the name of this precious lama haver come to be equated with sectarian hatred and persecution.

Knowing the Je Pabongka was a pure monk and a pure Buddhist, we know that his deeds were pure.

I am interested to see if

a) We can establish if these quotes are actually the words of Je Pabongka
b) They are translated well

According to internet debate standard, most of the offensive material is to be found in Pabongka Rinpoche's collected works, volume cha.

Can anyone verify that these words are truly to be found there? We need to understand clearly so we are not continually blindsided by these quotations in debates. Are they real? Are they well translated? If so, to whom was JE P speaking and what was the purpose of using such strong speech which seems to despise other practices when we know from the man's life and works he did not feel this way.

For an example, see below.

Pabhongkha in his letter to the novice Nyu’u Tshalmo Trang:

“Apart from the doctrine of Manjughosha Tsongkhapa alone, these days the views of all Sakyas, Kagyus, Nyingmas and so on are erroneous. They are not even Svatantra or Cittamatra, let alone the view of Prasanga Madhyamaka– meditating only the nihilist view like tirthikas and Hashang. If one upholds the nihilist view, the result is nothing other than going to Avichi hell. Since they can’t recognize subtle lethargy, even their meditation is defective. Apart from the thunderous noise of their pretentious boasting about profound secret mantra, they don’t even know the direction of bliss and emptiness, luminosity, union and so on. Since for them liberation and path of omniscience does not exist, realization will not arise even if they practice for a thousand years, as pointless as wishing for butter by churning water.”

emptymountains

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2010, 12:28:59 PM »
You may find these two links helpful. The first is the "case study" put out by the office of the DL:

http://www.dharmaprotector.org/phabongkhapa.doc (6 pages)

The second is a blog post I wrote trying to explain the quotes therein, like the one you cited above:

http://dharmaprotector.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/liberation-in-the-palm-of-your-hand-je-phabongkhapa-and-sectarianism/

a friend

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2010, 06:27:44 PM »
To begin with, I don´t remember that Je Pabongka used the word "all" in the sense of "every individual" in those sects ... if he ever used the word "all" at all. This is ridiculous. Je Pabongkapa received important transmissions from Sakya Masters, so this alone precludes the affirmation of "all" individuals of the 4 sects holding wrong views.

Now. If he found that many of those individuals did have wrong views, and he made a comment about it in a letter, or even in a teaching, WHAT´S WRONG WITH THAT? Kyabje Pabongka devoted his life to spread the pure view of our system, out of his oceanic great compassion. What´s wrong with trying to correct other people´s wrong view when you are a Lama? Atisha went to Tibet EXACTLY WITH THE SAME PURPOSE.
Lord Mañjushri arose in human form as Je Tsongkhapa EXACTLY WITH THE SAME PURPOSE. To show in detail the nature of things to us, ignorant, wrong view holders human beings.

Don´t worry much about what others say against Je Pabongkapa. Let´s try and study, contemplate and meditate, and teach others what we have understood. Then we can retire to a mountain cave and reach enlightenment. Not a bad prospect I would say ...  :D

Let´s pray and make dedications for those who don´t understand our Lineage Guru´s life and teachings, that they will one day, truly MEET WITH THE TEACHINGS OF JE TSONGKHAPA..

vinayaholder

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2010, 07:08:42 PM »
Quote
Don´t worry much about what others say against Je Pabongkapa. Let´s try and study, contemplate and meditate, and teach others what we have understood. Then we can retire to a mountain cave and reach enlightenment. Not a bad prospect I would say ...

Nice. Je Pabongkapa was actually considered a poor student and didnt even qualify with a Geshe Lharampa degree while studying at the monastery. But later in life, his practice of receiving teachings from Dagpo Rinpoche followed by intense contemplation in the caves above the monastery led him to become one of the foremost teachers of his time.

He is certainly one who showed what it meant to be a Gelugpa lama

WisdomBeing

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2010, 07:27:38 PM »
for a simple practitioner like me, i still haven't grasped fully "Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand: A Concise Discourse on the Path to Enlightment by Pabongka". Every time i read it, i get more and more out of it. He is truly one of the most erudite Masters.

There is not anything schismatic in this book so while i am a bit curious if he really said those negative things, whether he did or not will not change my impression of him.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

thor

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2010, 04:26:17 PM »
I have seen many unpleasant posts on Phayul about Pabongka and the sectarian things he supposedly said or did. Can someone on this forum please quote the source of these remarks?

a friend

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2010, 06:50:44 PM »
Dear Dulzin,

Please, let´s not import to this website the bad things about Je Pabongka. Let´s leave them where they are.
There is almost no way to tell anything about them, because they originate in the particular wrong and bad view about our main Lineage Lama, originated in ... Dharamsala, let´s say. He, or they in Dharamsala, are the ones feeding the Academia and the public with distorted information, plain lies, information out of context, and so on and so forth.

I would like to copy and paste a paragraph of the Introduction in Trinley Kelsang´s website:


Although this is not organized as a refutation, this presentation will draw out and explain various relevant points to show how they refute many of the fallacious ideas written in existing essays on this subject, especially The Shuk-den Affair. The mere scope and historical timeframe of this essay is suited to refute some of the central tenets of The Shuk-den Affair, as Georges Dreyfus puts the onus of the development and spread of Dorje Shugden on Pabongkha Rinpoche’s personal ideas and subsequent activities in the 20th century. Not only is this clearly shown to be false, Dreyfus also imputes a derogatory sectarian agenda as the motivation behind Pabongkha Rinpoche’s alleged promotion of the practice, with very little sources or evidence noted.

It would be very interesting for anybody to go and peruse and read Trinley Kelsang´s website:
http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts.html

Pabongka Dechen Ñingpo, the Master Essence of Bliss, is our root. Let´s respect his glory and his work by concentrating on his teaching and forgetting about those who try to impose the DL´s view on our holy peerless Lineage Guru.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 07:37:40 PM by a friend »

thor

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2010, 07:36:31 PM »
Hello friend,

That's fair enough. But it makes it difficult to refute these accusations. What you are saying is that they are all lies and have no basis but to those who are propagating such slander, these words hold little weight.

a friend

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2010, 07:43:55 PM »
Dear Dulzin,

I just added some information to my message.
I would advice to leave them alone. The people who are repeating and propagating the DL's vision are his fans, even if we had some cosmic footage to show them with the whole life of Lord Pabongka, the holy Master, they wouldn´t pay attention.

If nevertheless you would like to say something just in case somebody might be able to listen, ok, send them to Trinley Kelsang´s website, that I included above.

I hope it will be useful.


DSFriend

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2010, 07:44:22 PM »
Dear A Friend
I will take a look at the link you sent. Thank you very much.

dechen

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2011, 02:24:24 PM »
Djé Pabhongka dans sa lettre au novice Nyu'u Tshalmo Trang :

« En dehors de la doctrine de Manjughosha Tsongkhapa pratiquée à elle seule, de nos jours les vues de tous les Shakya, Kagyus, Nyingmapas, etc. sont erronées. Ils ne tentent même pas de produire des manifestations du Svatantra ou de Cittamatra, encore moins de maintenir des vues Prasanga Madhyamakas, se contentant de méditer la vue nihiliste comme tirthakas et Hashang.

Si on défend le point de vue nihiliste, le résultat n'est autre que de renaître dans l'enfer Avichi.

Tant qu'ils sont incapables de reconnaître une subtile léthargie, leurs méditations elles-mêmes sont défectives.

Outre le bruit tonitruant de prétentieuses vantardises au sujet de quelconque profond mantra secret, ils ne connaissent même pas la direction de la félicité et du vide, de la luminosité, de l'union, etc.

Tant que la libération et la voie de l'omniscience n'existe pas auprès d'eux, la réalisation spirituelle ne les atteindra pas même s'ils pratiquent pendant mille ans, de manière aussi vide et absente d'existence inhérente que de souhaiter du beurre en barattant de l'eau ! »

Helena

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2011, 03:37:47 AM »
Hi Dechen, welcome to the Forum. I see this is your first post?

Btw, some members in here may not read French but is this what you are trying to say -

Je Pabhongka in his letter to the inexperienced nyu'u Tshalmo Trang: 

"Outside of the doctrine of Manjughosha Tsongkhapa practiced to her only, these days the views of all the Shakya, Kagyus, Nyingmapas, etc. are erroneous.  They do not attempt even to produce demonstrations of the Svatantra or of Cittamatra, again less than to maintain views Prasanga Madhyamakas, being satisfied to meditate the view nihilist as tirthakas and Hashang. 

If one defends the point of view nihilist, the result is other only to reemerge in the hell Avichi. 

As long as they are incapable to recognize a subtle lethargy, their meditations themselves are defective. 

Besides the thundering noise of pretentious big-headedness on the subject of any deep secret mantra, they do not know even the direction of bliss and emptiness, luminosity, union, etc. 

As long as the liberation and the way of omniscience does not exist with them, they will not attain any witty realization even if they practice for thousand years, of manner also empties and leaves inherent existence as to wish butter while churning water!" 
Helena

DharmaSpace

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2011, 07:11:17 AM »
Welcome @Dechen to our forum, may you grow and share many of your learning and insights with all of us.   

dechen

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2011, 06:52:51 PM »
Yes Helena, I was trying to translate in french the meanings of dechen when he tried to explain the acute problem of having or not a spiritual guide...

dsiluvu

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Re: The Words of Dechen Nyingpo
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2011, 06:54:01 AM »
Even someone as great like Pabongkha can be criticised and slandered all in the name of the 3 poisons. SO what more can we say with oursleves. Reading all this and about Pabongkha's bio makes me humble and realise that when someone wrong us, it is definitely no big deal compared to this, what Pabongkha and enlightened being, a mahasiddha, and Vajrayogini himself goes through yet He remains immovable!  Miraculous!!!

Not long everyone, especially TGIE, which does not really exist anymore,  will shut up because I hear Pabongkha the current, low key for now, is teaching and spreading Dharma in China and perhaps even Tibet? And like his previous incarnations, they have good relations with the Chinese and it is from there I believe this path continues. From the way things are working out, it seems like China will be the future of where Dharma will flow from again.

If anyone has some more interesting news about Pabongkha, do share so we can rejoice, while we patiently wait for the day HH Je Pabongkha like Dorje Shugden can come out in the open :)