Author Topic: Choosing a Karmapa...  (Read 10652 times)

Questionable

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Choosing a Karmapa...
« on: October 01, 2018, 11:38:45 PM »
So, why is the oracle not choosing the correct Karmapa already?  Or why can't the oracle himself just do the job of finding the Dalai Lama's next incarnation?  I think the oracle is better at doing it than a Golden Urn that can get messed up, especially by politicians.  What do y'all think?  I think we should all gather together and demand a statement to the oracle to take trance and put an end to all these problems already and if possible, visit the Nechung and Tenma oracles.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2018, 01:13:00 PM »

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2018, 01:15:05 PM »
Here's another reason why to not trust the Dalai Lama's Oracles

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=5993.msg65314#msg65314

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2018, 01:36:29 PM »
Here's what Tsem Rinpoche thinks about the Nechung Oracle and his false statements.

https://www.tsemrinpoche.com/tsem-tulku-rinpoche/dorje-shugden/the-spirit-nyatrul-magic-mischief-and-misery.html

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2018, 01:39:23 PM »
 Questionable stated

"So, why is the oracle not choosing the correct Karmapa already?"

What Oracle are you talking about?

Could you tell us what Oracle chose either of the two Karmapas.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2018, 01:43:57 PM »

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2018, 02:50:05 PM »
Questionable stated this,

"I think the oracle is better at doing it than a Golden Urn that can get messed up, especially by politicians."
 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Golden Urn

Literal meaning
Drawing Lots From a Golden Vase Ceremony

The Golden Urn refers to a method introduced by the Qing Empire in the late-18th century to select rinpoches, lamas and other high offices within Tibetan Buddhism.


Contents [hide]
1 History
2 Controversy
3 See also
4 Notes
5 References

History[edit]

The Golden Urn originated in a decree issued by the Qianlong Emperor in 1792, after the Qing victory in the Second Invasion of the Sino-Nepalese War. Article One of the decree, The 29-Article Imperial Decree for Better Governing in Tibet, was designed to be used in the selection of rinpoches, lamas and other high offices within Tibetan Buddhism, including the Dalai Lamas, Panchen Lamas and Mongolian lamas.[1][2][3] The Urn's real purpose was to allow the Qing Emperors of China to control the selection process.[4]

Two Golden Urns were issued by the Qianlong Emperor: one is enshrined in Jokhang Temple in Lhasa and is to be used for choosing Dalai and Panchen Lama reincarnations; the other is in Yonghe Temple in Beijing for choosing Mongolian Lama, known as Jebtsundamba Khutughtu, reincarnations.[5]

The specific ritual to be followed when using the Golden Urn was written by the 8th Dalai Lama, Jamphel Gyatso.[6] The names and dates of birth of each candidate were to be written in the Manchu, Han, and Tibetan languages on metal or ivory slips and placed in the golden urn.[7] After prayers before the statue of the Jowo in the Jokhang temple in Lhasa, a slip was drawn. The 7th Panchen Lama, Palden Tenpai Nyima, used the Golden Urn for the first time in 1822 to choose the 10th Dalai Lama, Tsultrim Gyatso.

According to the 14th and current Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso, the urn was used in three Dalai Lama selections, those of the 10th, 11th, and 12th, and two Panchen Lama selections, the 8th and 9th. However, also according to the 14th Dalai Lama, only the 11th Dalai Lama was actually selected with this method, as the 10th and 12th Dalai Lamas had already been identified, and use of the Golden Urn in their cases was ceremonial to humor the Qing.[8] The 9th Dalai Lama, though recognized and enthroned after the decree was issued, was not chosen using the Golden Urn.

Controversy[edit]

In November 1995 the Golden Urn was controversially used to name Qoigyijabu (Gyancain Norbu) as the 11th Panchen Lama. This action was approved by the Chinese government, but opposed by the Government of Tibet in Exile. In May of the same year, Tenzin Gyatso had named Gedhun Choekyi Nyima as the 11th Panchen Lama.[9]

In 2007, an order from the State Administration for Religious Affairs,[10] the People's Republic of China's agency charged with keeping religion under state control, titled the State Religious Affairs Bureau Order No. 5 was issued regarding reincarnations in China. This order states that any tulkus (reincarnated teachers), which include the Dalai and Panchen Lamas, who plan to be reborn must complete an application and submit it to several government agencies for approval.[11]




Harold Musetescu

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2018, 03:14:12 PM »
This link is part of a larger story that lists many of the Nechung Oracle's failed prophecies.

I strongly suggest you read the full article Questionable and it will give you greater insights on this matter of the Nechung Oracle.

https://www.tibetworlds.com/2016/01/19/the-unreliability-of-the-nechung-oracle/

Conclusion

It is clear from these anecdotes that Nechung has a track record of making unreliable, inaccurate and plain-out wrong pronouncements and prophecies. These incorrect predictions have created tremendous trouble for the Dalai Lama and for the cause of Tibet. Yet, it is puzzling to note that despite all the problems that arose due to the reliance on the state oracle, the Nechung oracle is still very much revered and consulted to this day.

Generally, many high lamas still have high regard for the Dharma Protector Nechung, and some believe that the being entering the Nechung oracle’s body is not necessarily Nechung himself. In fact, some say that a powerful malignant spirit of someone who had been murdered by the CTA has been entering the state oracle, and intentionally making incorrect pronouncements – karma coming back for the Tibetan leadership. Whatever it is, there is a general belief that the trance of the Nechung oracle is not and has not been pure. In all likelihood, Nechung’s pronouncement against Dorje Shugden is yet another fake prophecy designed to create more harm in Tibetan society. Very plausible considering that all the Dorje Shugden ban has achieved is to create suffering, misery and heartache for all involved.






Questionable

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2018, 05:41:21 PM »
I mean our Oracle, the Shugden Oracle.  Not the Dalai Lama's oracles.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2018, 07:15:51 PM »
I mean our Oracle, the Shugden Oracle.  Not the Dalai Lama's oracles.

You obviously have no idea of how the world of Oracles in Tibetan Buddhism work.
WOW  :o :o :o :o :o

Questionable

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2018, 07:51:51 PM »
Then tell, what is our Oracle to do then? Nothing?

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2018, 08:35:11 PM »
Why not ask your Lama Grigori the Greek Delphi Oracle.

Questionable

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2018, 08:55:29 PM »
Why not ask your Lama Grigori the Greek Delphi Oracle.
Why don't you try answering my question seriously instead of coming up with assumptions or conspiracy theories?  Could be better than being banned.

Harold Musetescu

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2018, 09:15:09 PM »

"Why don't you try answering my question seriously instead of coming up with assumptions or conspiracy theories?  Could be better than being banned."

What a truly enlightened statement Questionable.

ANSWER MY QUESTION OR I'LL TRY AND GET YOU BANNED!!!!!
 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

I wish to thank you for truly revealing you inner self to all the readers at Dorje Shugden.

Bye Bye Questionable, Bye Bye
 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)




thaimonk

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Re: Choosing a Karmapa...
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2018, 10:44:07 PM »
Nechung oracle will not go into trance for you unless you make a sizable donation to him. This is a whispered about fact within the Tibetan communities. Tibetans speak about this in hushed tones. The Nechung oracle is very greedy for money and properties. He is not very liked in Dharamsala. He tricked the CTA into giving him land behind Namgyal monastery saying it will be a meditational retreat place for Nechung Monastery monks but it became his private palace residence.

Tema oracle does not recognize Tulkus and incarnations. She has no history so far of doing so.