Why does Lama Zopa and FPMT still keep statues of Lama Yeshe on their shrines?

[kris]

Unfortunately, not many will ask logical questions that are posted by Thaimonk. Many when asked about such logical questions, and when they can't answer, they will just reply that "Dalai Lama said so", and just quickly change the conversation to another topic.

This is from their website: https://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/dorje-shugden

Kopan Monastery had been performing the Dorje Shugden practice from the beginning, as this was Lama Yeshe’s main protector, on whom he relied whenever he needed help for anything. But since His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the one who holds, preserves, and spreads the entire Buddhist Dharma—both the lesser vehicle and the Mahayana, Paramitayana, and Secret Mantra Vajrayana—without the existence of His Holiness, not only Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism but Buddhism in general would suffer in the world. It would be similar to when children are left behind when their parents die. It would be like that.

So, it clearly said that, Kopan Monastery chose Dalai Lama's instruction over their founder Lama Yeshe's practice. It is really sad that Lama Zopa has denounced the practice even though the practice was given to him by his guru. May be he chose Dalai Lama for political reason? Or is it some other reasons?

Another things which anti-Shugden people always claimed was, if you practice Shugden, you will go to 3 lower realms. But then again and again, high lamas such as Zong Rinpoche etc all reincarnate back and they are recognized by HH Dalai Lama. What an irony. HHDL said practice Shugden will make you go to 3 lower realms, but the reincarnation that came back was recognized by HHDL himself.

See this interesting video about Kopan monks requesting Dorje Shugden Puja for Lama Zopa"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3a13Lsv_AE

[thor]

Thaimonk raised some excellent questions. I would be amazed if anyone from the FPMT attempts to answer them. Because by all principles of Tibetan Buddhism and Guru Devotion, what Lama Zopa and the FPMT are doing are wrong and bereft of logic.

Here are more questions for Lama Zopa and the FPMT:

1. Kopan Monastery was built with the blessings of Dorje Shugden and with sponsorship of Dorje Shugden practitioners. If FPMT are so obsessed with being clean, why don't they return the unclean sponsorship?




2. Why does FPMT advise its students to recite Lama Osel's long life prayer? Since Lama Yeshe was a Shugden practitioner, he would have reincarnated in the lower realms. So why make long life prayers to a person who isn't the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe?




3. Why doesn't Lama Zopa denounce his own teacher? Why doesn't Lama Zopa publicly announce that Lama Yeshe made a mistake when it came to Dorje Shugden? Even the Dalai Lama has publicly said on multiple occasions that Trijang Rinpoche made a mistake. If Lama Zopa wants to pursue the politically correct path, why doesn't he dare do the same to his own teacher? By extension, why don't senior FPMT students condemn Lama Yeshe for making a mistake?




4. Why did Lama Zopa barter away his root teacher for political correctness?
Why give up this precious connection....










...for this???





Is it worth giving up your root teacher, your principles, your honor, your integrity, all for the sake of association with the Dalai Lama, political correctness and money? Is that what the Buddha taught? Was it all worth it?

[DharmaSpace]

I don't think anyone still at FPMT would want to answer these questions.

FPMT was founded by the charisma and practice of Lama Yeshe who remained a Dorje Shugden person till the end of his life. FPMT only like to police others, but they will not want to return all the properties and statues, stained by a demon or spirit. 

FPMT, has broken their samaya to Dorje Shugden it is a real shame, the very force of nature that brought FPMT to the pinnacle of its success and development, they have cut ties to Dorje Shugden. Their actions is quite similar to how the Sakyas have abandoned this practice.

The succession planning for FPMT is on everyone's mind, who will take over this Buddhist organisation?


 

[DharmaSpace]

This I think was the same Dorje Shugden found at Kopan Monastery. 

[Aurore]

I believe the answer is quite obvious. FMPT WILL HAVE NO LINEAGE and CREDIBILITY.

Aside from being selective on what fits their purpose and to be in the good books with the Dalai Lama, it's quite obvious FMPT feel the need to keep Lama Yeshe’s image, teachings, maintain his website, books, etc although he was a DS practitioner because they will have no lineage, and no founder.

Hence, it is so dangerous and ignorant to claim Dorje Shugden is a spirit because it’s destroys the blessings of the Gelug lineage, the transmission of pure teachings and practices from the lineage masters is broken. This is not a danger to Gelug lineage only, but a danger to Buddhism as a whole.

The truth is FPMT as an organisation is NOT valid even by not denouncing Lama Yeshe. This is why Lama Osel renounced FPMT for this reason alone. FMPT only has broken samaya.

[christine V]

Very True on these points. It make a lot of logic thinking!

If Dorje Shugden is a demon or hell being why did the FPMT believed in Lama Yeshe  who is the practitioner of Dorje Shugden himself!  I thought in Tibetan Buddhism, those who need to achieve higher practice the first thing they need to learn is Guru Devotion. Why did FPMT do not followed their founder and guru all the way? Why did they change because of Dalai Lama. Is Dalai Lama their guru? Or maybe to take care of their face, to look good is more important than Guru Devotion?

And now, why did they still keep the statues of Lama Yeshe in their prayer shrine. On the other hand, they are telling the whole world that their guru is wrong about Dorje Shugden, on the hand, they worshiped their guru and put him on Shrine. What dharma their trying to teach to the students now?

[Jushri]

FPMT has to keep Lama Yeshe's statues on their shrine because they do not have a choice as Lama Yeshe is their founding father and removing all his image would make FPMT look ungrateful ie bad PR (Bad PR will mean less sponsorships). More importantly, for spiritual reasons, removing their Guru's image would mean that there is a break in their lineage blessings and they will lose their credibility.

Given that they STILL have Lama Yeshe's images on their altars, FPMT should not be so vocal in their anti-Dorje Shugden sentiments because everyone knows that Lama Yeshe was a well-known Shugden practitioner all his life and Lama Zopa himself used to practice Dorje Shugden. This shows what huge hypocrites they are - They venerate a Shugden Lama on their altar and yet they huge anti-Shugdenpas.

What is sad is how Lama Osel is unable to come back to fulfill his role in this lifetime since students of Lama Yeshe has broken their samaya as FPMT has stopped Dorje Shugden practice. It is sad that political and economic benefits have taken precedence over spiritual commitments.

[Tenzin K]

Lama Yeshe was the root guru of Lama Zopa and has taught him for what Lama Zopa has become now. How can Lama Yeshe be wrong just because he practices Dorje Shugden and Lama Zopa is right where he has learned so much from Lama Yeshe and just because Lama Zopa stop practicing Dorje Shudgen. It doesn’t make sense. In this case how can people choose over Lama Zopa who breaking his samaya with his Guru? If one can say his Guru is wrong the isn’t that also mean that the entire lineage is wrong because we receive the lineage teaching from our Guru? So what lineage does FPMT follow now? Where is the blessing coming from?

Looking at Lama Osel returning back and being recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama is really a great slap to the ban of Dorje Shugden. It does prove that practicing Dorje Shugden doesn’t not make one to take rebirth in hell. But a very obvious scenario we can see here is that Lama Yeshe with his pure devotion and faith in his practice he took rebirth in human realms with his attainment but due to the broken samaya of his students with him, it doesn’t help Lama Osel to continue his work in this life effectively.

Being in the good book of Dalai Lama by choosing to break the samaya with their own Guru will not make any good for FPMT. FPMT huge negative stance against Dorje Shugden directly send the message to the people that their founder is at wrong and how would the organization be right where the founder is the one teaches the students? 

FPMT need to clear this contradiction to the world for their stance. Their founder Lama Yeshe is a Dorje Shugden practitioners but FPMT going against Dorje Shugden practice and practitioners but why still worship and continue the practice that been passing down by Lama Yeshe? If practicing Dorje Shugden is evil that would mean that all Lama Yeshe’s practices is evil and wrong then why FPMT still continue with Dorje Shugden lama’s teaching?

[Gabby Potter]

The contradiction on this is very obvious, if practising Dorje Shugden brings one to the three lower realms, why did they even bother to recognise Lama Osel as the incarnation of Lama Yeshe? Why do FPMT and Lama Zopa still promote Lama Yeshe's teachings? Why are they still promoting a person who has 'broken' his vows?

The Dalai Lama says that by practising Dorje Shugden, it causes one to take rebirth in the three lower realms; On the contrary, he himself is seen endorsing Lama Osel and recognising him as the incarnation of Lama Yeshe. Hello??? Doesn't this sound or look weird to anyone? So what is it now? Does practising Dorje Shugden actually break one's vows and send them to the three lower realms? Cause certainly it didn't send Lama Yeshe to the three lower realms.

Due to the broken samaya between FPMT and Lama Yeshe, they didn't have the merits to sustain their own lama and thus we see Lama Osel as the person he is today. Some people may think that he's not the real deal and some may believe that it's some sort of manifestation, but the bottomline is that FMPT made a huge and terrible mistake by abandoning and going against their own Guru's practice. 

[fruven]

It is very dishonest to lie to people who wish to involve their spirituality in FPMT centers by not letting others know what they are getting into.

Lama Yeshe never gave up Dorje Shugden practice. However Lama Yeshe is still one of the Dorje Shugden lineage gurus in FPMT. FPMT claimed they are clean from anything to do with Dorje Shugden. Why continue to pray and ask for blessings from Dorje Shugden lamas? It doesn't make sense to me.

Clearly they are taking advantage of kindness of Dorje Shugden lineage masters while condemning the Dorje Shugden practice at the same time. What happened to all those years of receiving teachings and practices from Lama Yeshe? This seems contradictory but it is happening now where the FPMT is getting away with hiding this information.

I guess they're in for the reputation. If FPMT did truly follow Lama Yeshe they wouldn't have condemn Dorje Shugden. They don't need to condemn Dorje Shugden if their goal is spirituality.

[pemachen]

Personally, at the ultimate level, I do not see Lama Zopa or FPMT people as having broken samaya or having any contradictions in their practices. Having lots of Lama Yeshe statues and perhaps not openly practicing Dorje Shugden can go hand in hand in fulfilling the requirements of guru devotion and the view that Lama Yeshe, Lama Zopa and the Dalai Lama are indeed all Buddhas.

When Lama Osel takes over as spiritual advisor, he could perhaps manifest a different aspect with regards to this current issue.

My favorite quote:

"Even though we have many high lamas, not everyone is able to manifest this particular aspect, even though from my side the virtuous friends are of the same essence."

You have a point there Ringo. After all, Tenzin Ösel Hita is only 33 this year, I believe he has a long way to go. There is a chance for them to stop criticizing and banning Dorje Shugden practitioners/teachers from teaching at their centres in the future, although I'm not sure if FPMT will practice Dorje Shugden again. His Holiness the Dalai Lama seems to have stop the hostility against Dorje Shugden, manifesting a bit more 'tolerance' with Dorje Shugden practice and practitioners nowadays.

Tenzin Ösel Hita gave talks about eleven European FPMT centers and one Brazilian center last year alone, so definitely he is not abandoning FPMT or leaving the scene anytime soon despite FPMT's broken samaya.


Tenzin Ösel Hita giving a talk at Centro Shiwa Lha, Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, September 2017

[mindyful]

Lama Zopa believe and mentioned before that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Dechen Nyingpo are Buddha. Both of them have strong faith and practice Dorje Shugden in previous life. Now, they have returned in perfect human body form and continue to spread dharma for the benefit of others. Same as Lama Yeshe, he was also practiced Dorje Shugden and now return as Lama Osel and has been recognized by HH Dalai Lama. This clearly stated that great masters are definitely won’t reborn in the Three Lower Realms due to their Shugden practice.

Since Lama Yeshe worshipped Dorje Shugden, that means all teachings, lineages, oral transmissions, initiations passed from Lama Yeshe to Lama Zopa and many disciples are corrupted. So since all that is from Lama Yeshe is corrupted, why keep a statue of him on the shrine? Why worship corruption?

Totally agree with thaimonk, WHY FPMT worship corruption and keep maintain the website www.lamayeshe.com? Is their purpose is mainly for reputation and wealth? This is really hypocritical.

[Joo Won]

Thaimonk has brought up some important questions. To say Dorje Shugden is a spirit and all lamas who practice Dorje Shugden are going to Three Lower Realms is very dangerous and hypocritical at the same time.

This is not only apply to FPMT, but all the dharma centres and even individuals who claim that those who are practising Dorje Shugden will be going to hell. For Lama Zopa Rinpoche to abandon Dorje Shugden practice passed down by his guru and the founder of FPMT Lama Yeshe, he is actually abandon his guru, throw his samaya, all the other teachings, practices or initiations from his Lama Yeshe to the drain. There's no such rules that student can choose to practice 99 practices passed down by the guru and gives up 1 practice (whether Dorje Shugden or any other practices) by your guru; and you are still consider holding your samaya well and intact.

Furthermore, all the teachings, initiations and practices passed down by Lama Yeshe will be not valid, and there will be no blessings for those who receive it, since you have denounce your guru, your lineage - the very source of all the blessings come from. Since the source has been polluted, then the down stream (all the teachings, initiations or practices being passed down), will be polluted and not pure as well. How come total 100 practices passed down by a demon worshiper, would be the other 99 teachings will be PURE and VALID, but only the one - Dorje Shugden is POLLUTED? Illogical. How can you separate the CLEAN water then the POLLUTED water from the whole stream of water from the ocean of your guru's teachings, and pick the CLEAN ones to pass down, abandon the POLLUTED one?

Not only that, after breaking the samaya, abandoning one's guru, FMPT centres around the world go out to attack centres which practice Dorje Shugden and create troubles for those centres. It's wrong to attack other dharma centres even they're not from the same lineage, and it's even worse when you attack with political motivation in heart - to woo members from these centres, to attract more funds and support from HHDL...

I do believe Lama Zopa Rinpoche is a real practitioner, he must have some reasons he does not want to tell to denounce Dorje Shugden practice passed down by his guru Lama Yeshe. FMPT and Lama Zopa's students should see through this and stop immediately to attack any dharma centre which practice Dorje Shugden; and explain the logic behind abandoning Dorje Shugden practice is abandoning Lama Yeshe, reviving the practice is repairing the samaya with Lama Yeshe the founder, and getting life to the empty and invalid FPMT. It's still not too late to do so. May be Lama Osel will be coming back to FPMT and teaches intensively, and fulfilling his deeds as his previous incarnation did.

[Alex]

It is very dishonest to lie to people who wish to involve their spirituality in FPMT centers by not letting others know what they are getting into.

Lama Yeshe never gave up Dorje Shugden practice. However, Lama Yeshe is still one of the Dorje Shugden lineage gurus in FPMT. FPMT claimed they are clean from anything to do with Dorje Shugden. Why continue to pray and ask for blessings from Dorje Shugden lamas? It doesn't make sense to me.

Clearly, they are taking advantage of the kindness of Dorje Shugden lineage masters while condemning the Dorje Shugden practice at the same time. What happened to all those years of receiving teachings and practices from Lama Yeshe? This seems contradictory but it is happening now where the FPMT is getting away with hiding this information.

I guess they're in for the reputation. If FPMT did truly follow Lama Yeshe they wouldn't have condemned Dorje Shugden. They don't need to condemn Dorje Shugden if their goal is spirituality.

It is also dishonest for them to get more followers because since they had rejected a part of their Guru's practice, they had broken their samaya with their Guru. The blessing of the lineage is not there. Their spiritual activity in FPMT will not bear fruit because of the broken samaya. This is stated in the 50 stanzas of Guru devotion. No attainment will arise if your samaya with your Guru is broken. Hence, FPMT members can practice whatever they want, but they will not get any results.

There is no point for them to make a Lama Yeshe statue and put him on the altar. It is hypocrisy because they do not accept their Guru as he is. They choose to be politically correct by siding His Holiness the Dalai Lama to gain more benefit and invalidate the teachings that Lama Yeshe had given. There will be no blessing or whatsoever no matter what they offer the statue.

They have to keep Lama Yeshe's statue, teachings, and books because it is their lineage. If there is no Lama Yeshe, there will be no FPMT. However, they turned a blind eye on Lama Yeshe's identity as a Dorje Shugden practitioners and took what they need which is his image, teachings, and name. This is how they USE their lama even after their lama had passed away.

[dsnowlion]

Thaimonk raised some excellent questions. I would be amazed if anyone from the FPMT attempts to answer them. Because by all principles of Tibetan Buddhism and Guru Devotion, what Lama Zopa and the FPMT are doing are wrong and bereft of logic.

Here are more questions for Lama Zopa and the FPMT:

1. Kopan Monastery was built with the blessings of Dorje Shugden and with sponsorship of Dorje Shugden practitioners. If FPMT are so obsessed with being clean, why don't they return the unclean sponsorship?




2. Why does FPMT advise its students to recite Lama Osel's long life prayer? Since Lama Yeshe was a Shugden practitioner, he would have reincarnated in the lower realms. So why make long life prayers to a person who isn't the reincarnation of Lama Yeshe?




3. Why doesn't Lama Zopa denounce his own teacher? Why doesn't Lama Zopa publicly announce that Lama Yeshe made a mistake when it came to Dorje Shugden? Even the Dalai Lama has publicly said on multiple occasions that Trijang Rinpoche made a mistake. If Lama Zopa wants to pursue the politically correct path, why doesn't he dare do the same to his own teacher? By extension, why don't senior FPMT students condemn Lama Yeshe for making a mistake?




4. Why did Lama Zopa barter away his root teacher for political correctness?
Why give up this precious connection....










...for this???





Is it worth giving up your root teacher, your principles, your honor, your integrity, all for the sake of association with the Dalai Lama, political correctness and money? Is that what the Buddha taught? Was it all worth it?

These are also VERY GOOD QUESTIONS raised by Thor. Thank you Thor.

Yes I would also really like to know from FPMT members seriously WHY did they trade over their own Guru, the founder of FPMT over for the sake of looking politically correct, good and clean? Is really sponsorship and fame more important?

Look at Osel Hita now? He is now a Lama, not teaching, and nowhere. How did the legendary great Lama Yeshe become just another samsaric layman who is heading nowhere? And if FPMT was really honest and truthful, they would not even acknowledge this incarnation of Lama Yeshe, because by right Lama Yeshe should be in hell because he NEVER GAVE UP DORJE SHUGDEN!

Will senior fpmt members care to shed some light? I wonder...