karma and dorje shugden

[beggar]

And heck! Don't forget the karma of people who are putting down Dorje Shugden practitioners and causing them harm!

Honeydakini makes some valid points and I would also like to add.

If Dorje Shugden practitioners really were so evil, then as Buddhists, shouldn't we have even more compassion for them? Shouldn't we be even kinder? By acting negatively towards them, shunning them from our centers and cutting off all contact with them, then we are letting supposedly "bad" and "wrong" people continue doing "bad" and "wrong" things. As Buddhists, is this a responsible thing to do? We practice and work so hard to help people not create more sufferings for themselves, to relieve their pain and bring them happiness. If this is the case, then are Dorje Shugden practitioners not granted this same help from us? Everyone deserves help, happiness and teachings except Dorje Shugden practitioners? This does not sound at all in accordance with the Dharma to me.

So for the people who put down DS practitioners, harm them, ostracise them, deny them welfare, burn their homes and destroy their statues - is this a case of playing eye for an eye? If which case, the people acting in this way are not better than the very people they are demonising. There's karma in action already.

[Ensapa]

And heck! Don't forget the karma of people who are putting down Dorje Shugden practitioners and causing them harm!

Honeydakini makes some valid points and I would also like to add.

If Dorje Shugden practitioners really were so evil, then as Buddhists, shouldn't we have even more compassion for them? Shouldn't we be even kinder? By acting negatively towards them, shunning them from our centers and cutting off all contact with them, then we are letting supposedly "bad" and "wrong" people continue doing "bad" and "wrong" things. As Buddhists, is this a responsible thing to do? We practice and work so hard to help people not create more sufferings for themselves, to relieve their pain and bring them happiness. If this is the case, then are Dorje Shugden practitioners not granted this same help from us? Everyone deserves help, happiness and teachings except Dorje Shugden practitioners? This does not sound at all in accordance with the Dharma to me.

So for the people who put down DS practitioners, harm them, ostracise them, deny them welfare, burn their homes and destroy their statues - is this a case of playing eye for an eye? If which case, the people acting in this way are not better than the very people they are demonising. There's karma in action already.

Also why are people who are supposedly Buddhist acting in such a barbaric way as if they have never met the Dharma before? Maybe they have been that away all the while but they were using Buddhism to cover all of their lack of transformation of the Dharma and now that there is a legal excuse to do what they wanted to do "legally" they do it in the name of religion and even in the name of their Guru!! how absurd to go against your own teacher's principles and perform violent acts as well as creating schism in your teacher's name!!

I wouldnt want to say much, but all of these are actually contributing to the further deterioration of CTA. The world is no longer blind and people can go to Dharamsala to see what is happening, in addition of the actual footage and interviews which are proof of their actions that are being presented to the world. If CTA keeps denying what is obvious to the world, they will degenerate further as nobody respects any government who hides information from their people and also the world. When China did that, it was criticized. When Japan's prime minister hid the actual numbers of casualties and radiation levels from the public and it was found out, HE WAS FORCED TO RESIGN. Nobody appreciates a government that lies to their people. CTA better do the right thing. Their lies are not even acceptable in the secular sense, lets not talk about it from a Dharma point of view.

[shugdenprotect]

There are many other practices but they are not given so much attention. So, there must be more to this limelight that HH is giving to DS time and again after so many years. This adds to the statement that this ban has a bigger cause.

Perhaps the dsnowlion is right: Quite often, before something great can happen, something horrible has to happen…a form of purification. Before the manifestation of Dorje Shugden, Tibet went through big collective purification where livestock died, vegetation was lost and the land was struck by various natural disasters. Similarly (as dsnowlion mentioned) before Buddhadharma entered the world arena as a mainstream spiritual practice, Tibet was invaded and lost. Now, before Dorje Shugden can arise the THE Protector of the 21st century and bless the people, the ban has to be implemented purifying our collective karma so that eventually we will have the good fortune to receive Doje Shugden.

Ensapa’s first comment also struck a note. With all the distractions in the form of politics, we got ourselves entangled in the samsaric confusion, righteousness and separationalism of this controversy. Giving in to distractions, which is the main ingredient of our degenerate age, and forgetting the very fundamental of Lord Buddha’s teachings on karma and rebirth as well as Guru devotion.

I also agree with Beggar. If we claim to be Dharma practitioners, we should act kindly at all times. If anti-DS practitioners’ motivation is to uphold the Dharma and HH, then the best method to achieve this is to practice sincerely, beginning with the 8 verse of mind transformation by Geshe Langri Tangpa. I find this verse especially applicable:

When others out of jealousy mistreat me with abuse, slander and so on, I will practice accepting defeat and offering the victory to them…because as stated by Honeydakini, their karma with come get them anyways.

If we wish to view this matter on a secular level, there is no need to impose a ban upon people. Forceful implementation of any rule or law is not sustainable because respect is not developed and understanding is not nurtured. Consequently, rules that do not make sense normally breakdown and disintegrates. If the practice of Dorje Shugden is really bad and the CTA can come up with tangible and logical data to support this statement, I am certain that the practice of Dorje Shugden will eventually die out. However, not only did this practice not die out, it flourished. Why? Because the strong and valid arguments on the BENEFIT of Dorje Shugden that are supported by tangible result (through powerful platforms like this forum and visible and harmonious growth DS practicing centers and Masters) visibly outweigh the emotional outcries and tantrums of the anti-Shugden extremists.

Thus, let us continue our harmonious debate and constructive effort to bring DS and information related to Him to the world in effort to collect the merits for the ban to be lifted. Let’s leave the CTA and their cronies to their karma of schism and wrong view.

[dondrup]

I agree with the points that Honeydakini and Beggar had presented.  It is so logical and prove all the Dorje Shugden (DS) Detractors wrong!

But they FORGET that the very esscense of practising buddhadharma,  that is one must have strong guru devotion and one must not betray their gurus even at the cost of their life. Afterall, isn't the guru who teaches them the dharma and give them oral tranmissions and  initiations?  The mere flippant character of many anti-DS followers simply show how "UNSTABLE' their minds can be, and that they should all look deeper into their minds and contemplate why are they siding the political camp rather following their guru's instructions? For instance, why do FPMT members go along with DL to pressure against DS practitioners when their own founder, lama Yeshe is a well known DS practitioner?

Also Triesa had brought up the essence of the practice of guru devotion. How can the students go against their gurus who had given them the lineage transmission of Dorje Shugden practice?  If you have no faith in Dorje Shugden, that means you have no faith in your guru and the lineage masters. And it goes all the way back to Buddha Manjushri.

DS Detractors, are you against Buddha Manjushri?  If you are against Dorje Shugden that means you are against Buddha Manjushri!

DS Detractors, Stop going against Dorje Shugden before your negative karma becomes worst.  Have compassion for yourselves before it is too late! 

[jeremyg]

I have a question that has been bugging me for a while.

If Anti-Shugden practitioners commit malevolent or evil acts toward Dorje Shugden do they collect negative Karma. I ask this because even if the instruction came from the Dalai Lama himself to not practice Dorje Shugden, will the Dalai Lama's followers collect negative Karma. For example during the beginning of the ban where Shugden practitioners were forced to swear in; does it mean that the people who carried out the Dalai Lama's instructions to ask people to swear in our out, collected negative karma, or because the instruction was from HHDL himself they do not?

Can someone please help me out here?

[Ensapa]

I have a question that has been bugging me for a while.

If Anti-Shugden practitioners commit malevolent or evil acts toward Dorje Shugden do they collect negative Karma. I ask this because even if the instruction came from the Dalai Lama himself to not practice Dorje Shugden, will the Dalai Lama's followers collect negative Karma. For example during the beginning of the ban where Shugden practitioners were forced to swear in; does it mean that the people who carried out the Dalai Lama's instructions to ask people to swear in our out, collected negative karma, or because the instruction was from HHDL himself they do not?

Can someone please help me out here?

If they were following HHDL's instructions without adding their own interpretations to it, then there will be no negative karma, but if they were doing all of those nasty things towards DS practitioners...(HHDL didn't say to isolate them...its just them trying to desperately please HHDL the wrong way) obviously bad karma will follow because the instructions are misinterpreted to their own negative inclinations.

HHDL himself had declared that he will bear all of the bad karma that will be the result of that, but that does not mean they can simply do as they please and start burning people's homes and behaving as if they had never met the Dharma. Using the teacher's teachings as an excuse to commit violence is simply wrong. No teacher would ever give their lay disciples permission to commit acts of violence for any reason. And I have not found HHDLs talk authoring violence against people who are practicing DS. All the violence etc is just their own interpretation, so bad karma comes from there.

[pgdharma]

Yes, if following HHDL's instruction correctly there will be no negative karma. Even if there are negative karma, HHDL said he will bear all of that. However, if they ostracized, abused, threatened to kill, throw stones at Lamas and DS practitioners (which is not what HHDL asked them to do), they will definitely collect negative karma as those are negative actions especially causing so much sufferings to the Lamas and monks of the highest calibre.

[Ensapa]

Yes, if following HHDL's instruction correctly there will be no negative karma. Even if there are negative karma, HHDL said he will bear all of that. However, if they ostracized, abused, threatened to kill, throw stones at Lamas and DS practitioners (which is not what HHDL asked them to do), they will definitely collect negative karma as those are negative actions especially causing so much sufferings to the Lamas and monks of the highest calibre.

It's not really that the monks actually suffer because they are already attained, but the amount of bad karma that they accumulate from indulging in their own negative tendencies would also contribute to the CTA being downgraded further after this, and also having the international community losing even more respect for them as they cannot deny or keep these incidents secret for long.

They should really, really wake up and reconsider their actions, if HHDL told them to do such things, they should also provide the source of when HHDL said so instead of making things up.

[beggar]

I have a question that has been bugging me for a while.

If Anti-Shugden practitioners commit malevolent or evil acts toward Dorje Shugden do they collect negative Karma. I ask this because even if the instruction came from the Dalai Lama himself to not practice Dorje Shugden, will the Dalai Lama's followers collect negative Karma. For example during the beginning of the ban where Shugden practitioners were forced to swear in; does it mean that the people who carried out the Dalai Lama's instructions to ask people to swear in our out, collected negative karma, or because the instruction was from HHDL himself they do not?

Can someone please help me out here?

I don't think it is as simple as saying that someone does or doesn't create bad karma. It is not as black & white as this. there are other factors to consider, such as whether the person carrying out this instruction from the Dalai Lama also has other Gurus who have given him the practice of DS. In this case, carrying out the instruction from the Dalai Lama NECESSARILY also means that they break samaya with the other Gurus, by forsaking or going against a practice that have been given to them. This was the greatest dilemma faced by many, many, many of the monks and Tibetan lay practitioners. They loved the Dalai Lama and regarded him as their teacher, or had even received teachings and initiations from him; but they also have their own teachers, root Gurus etc who have given them a lifelong practice of DS, which they have held since their childhood, perhaps. Who do they choose to "side" with? Following one lama's instruction automatically means you negate and sever your bond with another.

Another scenario:
Of course, there is the case that you do NOT have another Lama who gave you DS practice. You have ONLY the Dalai Lama as your teacher and so you choose to follow his instruction not to practice DS. You may not have the practice of DS yourself, but by following Dalai Lama's instruction to try to stop DS practitioners in any way from their practice, then you are a direct cause for making them give up a lifelong practice and break their samaya with their teachers. I.e. it is because of you that they break their samaya. That creates karma too. It creates the causes for you to be separated from your teachers also and not to be able to practice or hold your samaya, no matter how much you want to.

There are many factors to consider in this... which is why it is always so important not to become entangled, comment on or affect any one else's practice negatively, in any way. We inevitably end up damaging ourselves because we create the causes for our own practice to be shaken and for us not to be able to hold our own words of honor. If we cannot even begin to respect the practices of others, how on earth can we create causes for our own practices to be successful?

[lotus1]

I really feel sad for those that has created so much bad karma in ostracized, abused, threatened to kill, throw stones at Lamas and DS practitioners. This is not the Buddhist way of being compassion.
Sincerely hope they can read the articles in DS websites and the forum to learn more about the truth and do something different. I learn a lot from the forum.
May the ban be lifted soon!

[Ensapa]

As it is said in the Lamrim and in various sutras regarding Karma, the soldiers in the war who are just following orders from the general get the same amount of negative karma. So from that, irregardless of whether or not they are following the Dalai Lama's orders, they will still reap a lot of suffering for themselves unless of course if those sutras have exceptions regarding this rule.

On the other hand, sometimes the Buddha emanates in various forms, and sometimes even as 2 different people who appear to be at odds but in reality it is like 2 actors in a show: it is just a show. Case in question would be Sangye Gyatso and Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen. Both their incarnations came back, proving that it was nothing but an illusory play. This did not mean that Sangye Gyatso was free from his karma -- he was caught, beheaded and his body impaled at the city gates.

Even when bodhisattvas ignore the law of karma, they still have to go to the hells. This has been explained as well. Nobody is exempted from the law of karma, ever. They can only purify it themselves and it does not matter who asked them to do what..they still have to face the consequences of their actions. No pardon or exemptions can be made when it comes to the law of karma.

Bottom line: there is no way out of this one, no matter how much they wish to believe that the Dalai Lama is right, they will still have to face the music, unless of course karma is wrong.

[VS]

There are several questions playing back and forth in my mind :

1. As HHDL has imposed the ban on DS practice, if His students follow His instructions and 'outcast' others that does not follow this, wouldn't they collect negative karma by 'inflicting suffering' on others? How does HHDL fair in this situation as DS has help HH to escape Tibet to safety during the Chinese invasion?

2. For those students that defied this ban, aren't they breaking their Guru Samaya for not following their Guru's instruction?

3. CTA has imposed rulings against DS practitioners and caused suffering for them, doesn't this result in them collecting tonnes of negative karma as these are highly attained Lamas and sangha members?

No matter how i look at the situation, everyone is collecting lots of negative karma either way. How can this be purified with the current situation?

[Big Uncle]

I have a question that has been bugging me for a while.

If Anti-Shugden practitioners commit malevolent or evil acts toward Dorje Shugden do they collect negative Karma. I ask this because even if the instruction came from the Dalai Lama himself to not practice Dorje Shugden, will the Dalai Lama's followers collect negative Karma. For example during the beginning of the ban where Shugden practitioners were forced to swear in; does it mean that the people who carried out the Dalai Lama's instructions to ask people to swear in our out, collected negative karma, or because the instruction was from HHDL himself they do not?

Can someone please help me out here?

Yes, I believed they have committed negative karma. If one sticks to a lineage and practice will gain attainments and so abandoning the lineage and practice would gain the opposite karma. Any monk should know the implications of abandoning the lineage will know this. How can a high and lofty figure like the Dalai Lama have the authority to tell any monk to renounce their own lineage and erase the negative karma, just because it was an instruction. It doesn't make sense. Not even the Guru's direction instructions can erase karma. No divine instruction can erase karma but certain karma can be worth enduring so that it brings about a bigger result.

[Barzin]

Yes Honey Dakini, you hit on all the right spots!  These very points are enough to reason regarding the ban, no matter how people bring out what His Holiness said, as time goes by, it seems like the practice is going strong, THIS WEBSITE is going strong, and His Holiness in fact has rarely talk bout the ban these days?  Yes, with no offense, nothing seemed to be happening to myself even i do my practice and proud to proclaim as Shugden practitioner!  As i have 100% faith in my guru, isn't guru devotion part of the preliminary of our practice?

Talking about karma, talking ill about Buddha is bad karma as far as I know.  I am very worried about those who abandoned the practice, it is directly going against your guru, lineage and vows if you have any.  I am also thinking someday when the ban is lifted, these people already had created so much negative karma.  I do not know if they even have the merits to pick up the practice again to purify it.  I was commenting on Lama Zopa's thread earlier, so I am just going to use Lama Zopa's disciple as an example; they created a cause for Lama Zopa's to be ill and even a Kopan will go seek Shugden puja done in Phelgyeling Monastery for Lama Zopa.  To me, it seems like the disciples do not even have the merits to think of solutions anymore for their lama because they will perceive the good as bad because they have created the karma for so.  So i'm wondering even if the ban is lifted, will they still have the karma to see the truth? 

[vajra power]

It puzzles me that people get so angry and hateful towards DS practitioners but if the practice was really as EVVVVVILLLLL and HARRRMMMMFUL as it is said, then just believe that the practitioners will have to suffer their own karma if they wish to continue the practice. Why does it matter to you if they practice or not? They will suffer their own karma, whatever they do in life and whatever them practice is, so just leave them to it!

THIS IS WHAT I WAS THINKING TOO. IF THE DS PRACTICE IS EVIL , AS A BUDDHIST ( OR AS HUMAN ) THEY SHOULD HAVE COMPASSION TOWARDS THE DS PRACTITIONER AND SHOULD TRY TO HELP THEM GET OUT OF THE
VICE WITH COMPASSIONED HEART - BUT THIS IS NOT THE CASE.