karma and dorje shugden

[honeydakini]

was just thinking about the silly arguments against Dorje Shugden and thought of a few more points as to why all the claims that DS is harmful, evil, will send you to hell etc is just TOTALLY RIDICULOUS and doesn't fit in with any of the most basic tenets of Buddhism.

hehe it's quite funny to think about it really because then you realise how much the anti-shugdenpas just kinda shoot themselves in their own foot and end up looking really stoopid.

my thoughts: 

1) If you believe in karma, then believe that if DS was really that bad and doing his practice was really that bad, then DS followers would have to reap their own karma.

It puzzles me that people get so angry and hateful towards DS practitioners but if the practice was really as EVVVVVILLLLL and HARRRMMMMFUL as it is said, then just believe that the practitioners will have to suffer their own karma if they wish to continue the practice. Why does it matter to you if they practice or not? They will suffer their own karma, whatever they do in life and whatever them practice is, so just leave them to it!

2) I wonder why people get so worried about DS harming Dalai Lama's life. in the first place, DOES DALAI LAMA - who is the emanation of AVALOKITESHVARA - HAVE THE KARMA TO BE HARMED?! You believe that he is an emanation of a Buddha but you also believe that he can be harmed by a spirit?!

Does that mean you believe that this spirit has more power than Dalai Lama who is Avalokiteshvara, a Buddha?? Does that mean you believe that Dalai Lama still has the karma to be harmed, just like every other schmuck in samsara?

3) If DS practice is harmful and is very evil and causes great damage to practitioners, then why is it that so many highly esteemed and great practitioners - such as Zong rinpoche, Lama Zopa, Lama Yeshe, Trijang Rinpoche - all reincarnated back? And their unmistaken reincarnations were recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama!!!! If doing the practice is so evil and bad, then wouldn't they have created terrible negative karma and be reborn in one of the 3 lower realms? Why are they back in perfectly good lives to practice dharma again???

Using the argument that DS is harmful to launch criticism and attacks on DS practitioner is so illogical and, actually, quite pointless because at the end of the day, we all face our own karma don't we? So no matter how much you say, a DS practitioner faces his own karma on his deathbed, and so do you.

[Big Uncle]

Dear Hunnydakini,

That is an excellent line of reasoning. There are so many Lamas, students - both attained and not attained have been practicing Dorje Shugden and they have been fine and many have been reincarnating back. Hence, the practice isn't bad. Also the Dalai Lama himself had been practicing Dorje Shugden for many years and even composed a prayer to him called Melody of the Unceasing Vajra which one can download in the prayer section of this website.

[DSFriend]

  Western Buddhism will be known one day as having roots in Tibetan Mahayanna, but will be called something else. Why? Because once the truth is fully understood, we will have no option but to rewrite the mistakes.
We want the Dharma clean and not tainted by antiquidated Tibetan Politics played by a bunch of Mountain Red Necks.

Thank you Lhakpa Gyalshen for sharing. Reading this post from you makes me think how important it is for practitioners to be sincere. All would be lost if I do not hold steadfast the teachings given by my Guru. It is harder to be practicing in a place where there are no mass Buddhist consciousness. May our Gurus live long and for us to have clear minds to realize the path.

best wishes always
DK

[dsnowlion]

was just thinking about the silly arguments against Dorje Shugden and thought of a few more points as to why all the claims that DS is harmful, evil, will send you to hell etc is just TOTALLY RIDICULOUS and doesn't fit in with any of the most basic tenets of Buddhism.

hehe it's quite funny to think about it really because then you realise how much the anti-shugdenpas just kinda shoot themselves in their own foot and end up looking really stoopid.

my thoughts: 

1) If you believe in karma, then believe that if DS was really that bad and doing his practice was really that bad, then DS followers would have to reap their own karma.

It puzzles me that people get so angry and hateful towards DS practitioners but if the practice was really as EVVVVVILLLLL and HARRRMMMMFUL as it is said, then just believe that the practitioners will have to suffer their own karma if they wish to continue the practice. Why does it matter to you if they practice or not? They will suffer their own karma, whatever they do in life and whatever them practice is, so just leave them to it!

2) I wonder why people get so worried about DS harming Dalai Lama's life. in the first place, DOES DALAI LAMA - who is the emanation of AVALOKITESHVARA - HAVE THE KARMA TO BE HARMED?! You believe that he is an emanation of a Buddha but you also believe that he can be harmed by a spirit?!

Does that mean you believe that this spirit has more power than Dalai Lama who is Avalokiteshvara, a Buddha?? Does that mean you believe that Dalai Lama still has the karma to be harmed, just like every other schmuck in samsara?

3) If DS practice is harmful and is very evil and causes great damage to practitioners, then why is it that so many highly esteemed and great practitioners - such as Zong rinpoche, Lama Zopa, Lama Yeshe, Trijang Rinpoche - all reincarnated back? And their unmistaken reincarnations were recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama!!!! If doing the practice is so evil and bad, then wouldn't they have created terrible negative karma and be reborn in one of the 3 lower realms? Why are they back in perfectly good lives to practice dharma again???

Using the argument that DS is harmful to launch criticism and attacks on DS practitioner is so illogical and, actually, quite pointless because at the end of the day, we all face our own karma don't we? So no matter how much you say, a DS practitioner faces his own karma on his deathbed, and so do you.

Honey Dakini you are right. I really like your logical passionate reasoning! Perhaps you can post this up at Phayul cos they don't seem to get it unfortunately.

Buddhism definitely does not just belong to Tibet and Dorje Shugden practice too. Perhaps this whole controversy is being blown out of proportion simply to spread Dorje Shugden practice to the world? Like how Tibet was invaded by China and in a way became a blessing to the world because we then started to hear about Vajrayana Buddhism. Everything has two sides positive and negative it all depends on which perspective we choose to look at things.

Yes this ban is wrong and is suppressing many "Tibetans" from practicing. But on the other hand, it is also being promoted widely to 1.3 billion people and lets not forget around the world as we are students of great masters who have branched outside of Tibet. Thank Buddha for that and we're not going to break our commitment to our Gurus. And with that keeping the lineage alive till one day soon we can openly hear teachings and practice Dorje Shugden in stadiums everywhere.

Gangchen Rinpoche himself have thousands of students around the world and he practice Dorje Shugden... so imagine just him alone spreading this practice to so many? If Gangchen Rinpoche is practicing something bad, I'm sure it would not created the cause for him to continue growing and building new monasteries hu?

ds
   

[WisdomBeing]

H Dakini,

Yes I believe in karma - otherwise i wouldn't be a Buddhist. And since i believe in karma, I believe that there is no point getting upset with anyone. My Guru teaches me that whatever we suffer, we have created the causes for it. Therefore, we have to accept, let go of our disappointments and anger because these deluded emotions do not serve us.

If something is not right, of course we should try every avenue to change it, but with the correct motivation - to benefit others - and not out of anger or any negative emotion.

My Guru told me about an elderly monk who had been physically tortured by the Chinese during the invasion. This monk - while under torture - kept sending loving kindness to his captors - and has never felt any negativity for them. He just accepted it as his karma and prayed that whatever he suffered, may he suffer it for others and may all the sufferings of others come to him. What a holy monk.

Because of our Protector practice, we may have suffered in the past, may be suffering in the present or may suffer in the future. How we react under duress will show how we practise the holy Dharma.

On another note - i don't get why people can get so upset at DS. If people think he is a spirit, then they don't have to propitiate him. And like you say, DS practitioners will collect their karma for following a spirit, right?

So many different schools practise different deities and people don't get upset. If they talk about sectarianism - i don't see it at all. Also if certain DS practitioners act negatively, i don't think they represent ALL DS practitioners. In every faith, in every school, in every culture, you will get the occasional oddball. They will kill or steal. It's a fact. But they do NOT represent the entire religion or culture, right? Hypothetically speaking, a manic Christian/Buddhist/Hindu kills someone, you don't say that ALL christians/buddhists/hindus are murderers right. So people label shugdenpas as murderers because some ALLEGEDLY killed someone. It's not even proven that they did!

Sometimes the world is totally mad. Stop the world, someone, i wanna get off!

[Geronimo]

Don't let your Karma hit my Dharma! 
It's the sticky part of Samsar a! 
There is only the Laws that Protect Others, 
While We Experience the Karma, 
Causes Us to Practice the Dharma! :

[WisdomBeing]

Don't let your Karma hit my Dharma!
It's the sticky part of Samsara!
There is only the Laws that Protect Others,
While We Experience the Karma,
Causes Us to Practice the Dharma!

hahaha! - very cute!!! 


When we practice Dharma,
we try to clean up our karma
so we can get rid of every mara
and get the hell out of samsara!


ok that was a bit cheesy but

[Alexis Ball]

This website is amazing.  Besides having deep, neutral and abundance of information on Dorje Shugden, this website attracts interesting people - poets especially!  I have enjoyed this topic of Karma, Dharma and Dorje Shugden.

I believe in Karma.  It is the only logical answer to the ever-famous question, "Why Is THIS Happening to ME??!!"  For those who do not believe in Karma will answer, "Oh well, Life Ain't Fair." cry, cry... Or the ever-famous answer, "Life's a Bitch."  Then they accept these loser answers and go along their samsaric ways only to ask the same old question.  When one understands Karma one knows one has a choice to do something about it!  To Purify the Balance Sheet of Life - Merits.  Then leads us to adopt Dharma and practise Dharma.

People want to be successful in life.  Some are doctors, lawyers, business tycoons, actors, etc.  Tell me, does the doctor call the business tycoon as practising the wrong path to be successful? In fact, all these different successful people in differing fields makes the world exist with interesting variety.  Plus, they all co-exist and are co-dependent on one another.  This analogy I apply to this controversy on Dorje Shugden. People want to have peace and purify their Karma.  One path is Dorje Shugden practice.  Some can follow other ways as prescribed by other Gurus.  The bottom line is everyone is at peace and happy to make this world truly a better place for the future generation, irregardless of personal differences in practice.

Personally, I think that there is a very deeply encryptic "plot" behind this whole controversy.  Once again I apply something from our daily lives, have you heard that bad publicity sells!  Especially when the "bad publicity" is spear headed by great people.  A movie which is "tainted" with rumors before the launch will attract more audience. An example is Mr. and Mrs. Smith, of course it may not have been a great blockbuster, but I went for more than Brad Pitt.  Anyway you know what I mean, the controversy promotes Dorje Shugden!

[honeydakini]

Well I must agree that no publicity is bad publicity.

I read a nice comment on one of the threads on another forum somewhere: "One thing for sure, Shugden practice has continued, the Dalai Lama has not suffered illness as a consequence, and those organisations performing the practice, like some Gelug monasteries and also the NKT, are thriving. In fact, the practice may even have been given a boost - certainly many practitioners I know are far more determined to protect and preserve it."

Yes, if we step back for a moment, it is heartening to see that in the midst of all this craziness, (or perhaps in spite of it), Gelug monasteries are still flourishing and so are Dharma centres (which means so many more people receiving, learning and practising Dharma). I'm not going to repeat my opinion that this controversy is happening for the sake of something bigger and more beneficial - let's not even consider that discussion that us noobs have been putting forth.... but let's look at the fact that there IS something positive arising out of all this, which is a stronger faith and tenacity than ever. If nothing else, I think it has given us an even greater appreciation of the practice, and called to many practitioners' attention the even larger questions of samaya, guru devotion, and what practice means to them in the first place. It is bringing up many important questions that we should always be asking ourselves with regards to our practice. That is something valuable I choose to take from this - a little silver lining in the clouds

[Geronimo]

Don't let your Karma hit my Dharma! 
It's the sticky part of Samsara! 
There is only the Laws that Protect Others, 
While We Experience the Karma,   
Causes Us to Practice the Dharma

When we practice Dharma,
we try to clean up our karma
so we can get rid of every mara
and get the hell out of samsara! 
 
 

[iloveds]

The arguments about DS are just so absurb, they make me wonder does the anti-dalai lama engine know no boundaries? Some of this stuff should be quite obvious to all the buddhist pracitioners out there... especially the tibetans themselves.

I mean, if the practice is evil how can a high lama reincarnate back? I wonder what they debate about around the camp fire sipping their tibetan tea and debating the finer points of cause and effect.

Perhaps this shows just how non - practicing some tibetans are, and how easy it is to divide a people.

[Ensapa]

I do agree with what honeydakini had said. It makes a very compelling and sound argument against all of the DS detractors out there. Simply because they do not have a reason to go against DS other than taking the word of the Dalai Lama and wanting to be on his good side. There are also certain lamas of other traditions who accuse DS of being sectarian and harmful, again without basis and why are they even talking about something that is not of their tradition in the first place?

if DS was as bad as these people claim to say, why are centers who practice DS like NKT and Jamseng Rinpoche's centers growing exponentially, in addition to gathering more followers than any of the more politically correct ones? What is the use of being politically correct when you dont even  know why and just want to follow the crowd? Didint the Buddha said investigate before accepting any dogmas or ideas? why are these people basing their decisions on hearsay?

On investigating DS throughly, i do not find anything wrong with him and that he is actually a Buddha. So why cant these people just take a little bit of extra effort to investigate?

[pgdharma]

Hi honeydakini, I like what you wrote. It is so logical yet many are blinded that they can't see the logic and have so much hatred for Dorje Shugden and His practitioners.

"It puzzles me that people get so angry and hateful towards DS practitioners but if the practice was really as EVVVVVILLLLL and HARRRMMMMFUL as it is said, then just believe that the practitioners will have to suffer their own karma if they wish to continue the practice. Why does it matter to you if they practice or not? They will suffer their own karma, whatever they do in life and whatever them practice is, so just leave them to it!"

How true!!! Why only have so much anger and hatred towards DS practitioners just because they are anti-DS. If they dont believe in Dorje Shugden too bad, it is not their karma to receive such powerful practice and they will collect even more negative karma by showing so much anger and hatred towards such an Enlightened Being.

Their minds are so clouded with wrong thinking. They should spend time investigating the truth; read and learn up from this website instead of creating more negative karma for themselves.

[Positive Change]

On investigating DS throughly, i do not find anything wrong with him and that he is actually a Buddha. So why cant these people just take a little bit of extra effort to investigate?

This is precisely why this website is such an incredible tool of knowledge. It is clearly the Wisdom Sword to fight ignorance. This forum in particular is a wealth of information and also debatable logic. Debate is good in making us understand a situation inside out. If we are able to absorb the good and the bad, we are then able to view a matter more subjectively... case in point this whole Dorje Shugden issue and the ban!

It is really disheartening to hear the stories and hardships that some monks have to go through... however, there are also many practitioners out there who are "fighting" to lift the ban. Yes... Some more in your face then others and I am in no position to judge but what I find that works within the Buddhist principles is to not fight fire with fire but to fight the fire with a fountain of knowledge! Combat the true enemy which is ignorance... because, evil intentions can only thrive on an ignorant mind!

[triesa]

Honeydakini basically has summed up all the facts and presented them in a very logical manner. They are simply unbeatable! And they are all true!!!!

I would like to think and look at the perspcective from those who are so against DS and his followers.

 It is human nature to be politically right and to be on the safe side, people rarely and hardly take chances because of selfish reasons and they dont want to be left out and feel kind of helpless. So abiding to a political wind, especially the one from the DL, must be safe.

But they FORGET that the very esscense of practising buddhadharma,  that is one must have strong guru devotion and one must not betray their gurus even at the cost of their life. Afterall, isn't the guru who teaches them the dharma and give them oral tranmissions and  initiations?  The mere flippant character of many anti-DS followers simply show how "UNSTABLE' their minds can be, and that they should all look deeper into their minds and contemplate why are they siding the political camp rather following their guru's instructions? For instance, why do FPMT members go along with DL to pressure against DS practitioners when their own founder, lama Yeshe is a well known DS practitioner?

At the end of the day, we practice spirituality for the benefit of others and not to cause any harm to anyone, if you want to play politics and create schism, then go to the real political world! People who play politics in the spiritual world really disgust me!

Knowledge is powerful, for those who ahve doubts in DS, please check out every single article in this website, which is compiled and provided for free! check them out and see what you think of Dorje Shugden! Dont just go along with the political wind as it is usually short-lived, same in the real world!