The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?

[mountains]

Dear Tibetan government-in-exile (Dharamsala),

Sharmapa Rinpoche is the highest authority in the Karma Kagyu after Karmapa. By age old tradition, Sharmapa is the one that confirms the real incarnation of Karmapa. He recognized Thaye Dorje as the genuine Karmapa. But Dalai Lama endorsed Orgyen Trinley as the real Karmapa. Dalai Lama is a great lama but there has never been a tradition of him recognizing a Karmapa.

Both 'Karmapas' have big followings in and out of Tibet. So which one should we follow? We have to follow the genuine Karmapa. If we follow the fake one, we will get fake teachings, fake lineage and no results. We can even take rebirth in the lower realms.

Only the Tibetan leaders can tell us which is the real Karmapa. You have told us which one is the real Panchen Lama. We follow the Panchen of your choosing. Since then we have condemned China and condemned the fake Panchen Lama. Now it is the same situation with Karmapa. We have denounce the fake Karmapa and ask him to step down. He is destroying the Karma Kagyu Lineage.

This issue has torn the Karma Kagyu sect in half. There are many who are so confused and some gave up Tibetan Buddhism altogether because of this. We must solve the confusion. This does not look good for the Tibetan government in exile because the confusion was started by Tibetan government. I support Dalai Lama and Tibetan government. But so many of us need to know the real Karmapa already. Don't remain silent. Which one is the real Karmapa.



Tibetan government in exile, you have created two Gelugs (Pro-Dorje Shugden and against), you have created two Panchen Rinpoches, two Karmapas, two Dromo Geshe Rinpoches, two Kundeling Rinpoches and so on. When are you going to solve all the confusion. You are destroying Tibetan Buddhism.


VERY INTERESTING ARTICLE ON THIS SITUATION HERE- https://bit.ly/2SMNQe1

[I found these memes and message floating around on the internet and thought to share here]

[mountains]

Karmapa Thaye Dorje recognized by Sharmar Rinpoche is heading the Kagyu Monlam 2018. Is he the real Karmapa. Or is Ogyen Trinley the real one? Which one is it?

Pictures of Karmapa Thaye Dorje heading the Kagyu Monlam festival in Bodhgaya, India 2108 - https://www.karmapa.org/kagyu-monlam-2018-the-story-so-far-photos/

[Ringo Starr]

Thank you so much for asking these questions which have been on my mind for quite a while.

The CTA or Tibetan government-in-exile which is an NGO really (No-Good Organization) who went about supporting and appointing all kinds of Tulkus including the "missing" Panchen Lama has not said a single thing about the not missing Panchen Lama although the Dalai Lama has confirmed, a couple of times and clearly, that there could be multiple incarnations of the same mindstream which is not limited.

With that also comes the question which the above have asked - which is the real Karmapa CTA?

Which?

Please answer for all to know ye almighty CTA.

Need to know. Really urgent.

I don't want to pray to the wrong, fake Karmapa - just as you have advised and enforced not to pray to the devil evil conniving dangerous bad terrible shorten the Dalai Lama's life DORJE SHUGDEN.

[Lawrence L]

The Tibetan leaders are very sneaky. When it comes to the 2 Panchen Lamas controversy, they quickly condemn one of the two so strongly, riding on the anti China sentiment to fulfil their selfish agenda at the cost of sacrificing Tibetan Buddhism.

They are doing the same to the Karma Kagyu sect. They created the situation of having 2, no, in fact 3 Karmapas and they keep quiet for 2 decades, ignoring all the conflicts, confusion and chaos resulting from the controversy. Yet they happily play the role of policing religion affairs, telling the whole world, which deity is good and which is bad, for example the Dorje Shugden controversy. They said Dorje Shugden is evil and stop people from practicing it, and condemn and segregate the people who practice it.

Since they condemn one of the two Panchen Lamas, since they held the power to judge which deity is good or bad and are above all god, all Buddhas, all deities, they should also condemn the fake Karmapa (sorry to say), and it is time to tell which Karmapa is real and which is not! I thought this is what they should do? Since they ban Dorje Shugden, they can also ban the fake Karmapa. Tibetan leaders in Dharamsala, please don't be selective, don't hide.

[Lawrence L]

Thank you so much for asking these questions which have been on my mind for quite a while.

The CTA or Tibetan government-in-exile which is an NGO really (No-Good Organization) who went about supporting and appointing all kinds of Tulkus including the "missing" Panchen Lama has not said a single thing about the not missing Panchen Lama although the Dalai Lama has confirmed, a couple of times and clearly, that there could be multiple incarnations of the same mindstream which is not limited.

With that also comes the question which the above have asked - which is the real Karmapa CTA?

Which?

Please answer for all to know ye almighty CTA.

Need to know. Really urgent.

I don't want to pray to the wrong, fake Karmapa - just as you have advised and enforced not to pray to the devil evil conniving dangerous bad terrible shorten the Dalai Lama's life DORJE SHUGDEN.

All these fake Panchen, fake Karmapa problems are so unnecessary and pointless. It brings no good but harm. Perhaps we should call the Tibetan leaders in Dharamsala as fake government because they did and doing such a lousy job. Close down Dharamsala office and I guess all these problems will be solved.  

[Lawrence L]

Karmapa Thaye Dorje recognized by Sharmar Rinpoche is heading the Kagyu Monlam 2018. Is he the real Karmapa. Or is Ogyen Trinley the real one? Which one is it?

Pictures of Karmapa Thaye Dorje heading the Kagyu Monlam festival in Bodhgaya, India 2108 - https://www.karmapa.org/kagyu-monlam-2018-the-story-so-far-photos/

The Dharamsala office has no gut to tell which Karmapa is the real one because they dare not to offend the followers of whichever Karmapa, yet they bully the Dorje Shugden practitioners because they conveniently labeled them as Chinese spies and ride on the anti China sentiment. So much hypocrisy and it is tiring to see the stunts pulled by the Dharamsala office.    

[phyag na rlangs pa]

When it suits them, one is fake and one is real.

Like the Panchen Lama controversy, in the beginning the Chinese Panchen Rinpoche was declared fake but now that he is doing well and become popular along with the fact that China is stronger and Tibetans are doing well and happy in the Tibetan Autonomous Region, and because the CTA has lost and there is now way for them into Tibet except through China, Dalai Lama is saying that Chinese Panchen Rinpoche is real because there can be more than one incarnation.

When it suits them, one is fake and one is real.

Before, when Dalai Lama recognised Orgyen Trinley, he was a young man who through Tai Situpa, could be controlled and the CTA thought they can control the Kagyupas BUT NOW that Karmapa Orgyen Trinley has decided that enough is enough and refusing to be another CTA puppet, cutting away the CTA's strings on him by becoming a citizen of Dominica, SUDDENLY the Dalai Lama goes to Bodhgaya Kagyu Monlam to "meet Karmapa Thaye Dorje".

So, is Thaye Dorje the real Karmapa or not?

The CTA and Dalai Lama must declare who the REAL KARMAPA is and stop playing the Kagyu sect and their followers.

[Jushri]

Of course, CTA can help. It's a matter of if they want to or how much money they will get from this.

If CTA doesn't do anything to fix this Karmapa issue, it will just show again that CTA does not care about their own people. CTA have poked their noses onto spiritual affairs which should NOT have been the case at all as CTA people like Lobsang Sangay know nuts about spirituality and couldn't be bothered about his people if it doesn't help his bank account grow even more.

[DharmaSpace]

As mountains said it, all these divide and conquer business is very damaging for Tibetan Buddhism.

Tibetan Buddhism is being destroyed from within.

CTA can do something really decent for once and recognize the true Karmapa. 

Else, their support from the Tibetans will erode away even more, CTA has lost many allies around the world, now they risk losing the very support that put them into power the Tibetans.

Bye bye CTA, if you don't manage to resolve the Karmapa issue once and for all. 

[michaela]

The Central Tibetan Administration (CTA) has been playing devide et impera politics for many years. What I see is when an influential lama passed away, They created two of everything (e.g., two Karmapas, two Panchen Lamas, two Serkong Rinpoche, two Domo Geshe Rinpoche, two Kundeling Rinpoche). Just like the invaders of the past, the CTA is doing this to weaken the influence of powerful lamas.

This is another proof that the CTA is not acting in the best interest of Tibetans and Tibetan Buddhism. This is not a smart move on their part because Tibetan Buddhism is their biggest assets and the only thing that is still growing within the Tibetan culture. This is what the Tibetans are known for. Many of their sponsors came forward because of their faith to the Dalai Lama or other high lamas, not so much because of the CTA's achievements and reputation. They may not realize it now, but the CTA is committing suicide by playing self-interest politics.

[pemachen]

When it suits them, one is fake and one is real.

Before, when Dalai Lama recognised Orgyen Trinley, he was a young man who through Tai Situpa, could be controlled and the CTA thought they can control the Kagyupas BUT NOW that Karmapa Orgyen Trinley has decided that enough is enough and refusing to be another CTA puppet, cutting away the CTA's strings on him by becoming a citizen of Dominica, SUDDENLY the Dalai Lama goes to Bodhgaya Kagyu Monlam to "meet Karmapa Thaye Dorje".

So, is Thaye Dorje the real Karmapa or not?

The CTA and Dalai Lama must declare who the REAL KARMAPA is and stop playing the Kagyu sect and their followers.

You have a good point there, phyag na rlangs pa. Why is it after not contacting, and over 20 years of not recognising this Karmapa Thaye Dorje, suddenly there is a need to connect and want to 'meet'? The Central Tibetan Administration must think that Karmapa Thaye Dorje is stupid to not see what's the plot and intention behind this sudden urge to be friendly.

The good news is that Thaye Dorje, especially after suffering from being despised by the Central Tibetan Administration for over two decades, the Karmapa sees no need to being chummy with the Tibetan leadership in Dharamsala. This is perhaps why the two Karmapas took the bold step of meeting each other outside of the knowledge of the Central Tibetan Administration, publicly announcing their monumental meeting. I applaud them. Unity of a divided lineage is far more important than appeasing the rotten Tibetan leadership in Dharamsala. Now both Karmapas are free from encumbrances, especially Karmapa Ogyen Trinley who has stayed abroad for almost a year now, and has recently acquired a Dominican Republic passport.   

[Tracy]

This is so confusing, there are 2 Panchen Lamas and 2 Karmapas. Which one is real? Since all Tibetan Buddhists have to listen to the Dalai Lama we have to just follow the one that is recognised by the Dalai Lama and the CTA. They have the responsibility to ensure the purity of a lineage just like how they are trying to preserve the purity of Gelug lineage by imposing a ban on Dorje Shugden practice.

All these years the Dalai Lama only endorses the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. He always takes photos with the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley and wants him to become his successor. The Dalai Lama has not taken any photo with the Karmapa Thaye Dorje before, it is a clear indication he does not recognise the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. However, the thing has changed. Recently, the Dalai Lama graced the Kagyu Monlam Festival presided by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje.

How come there is a sudden change from the Dalai Lama? It is similar to how the Dalai Lama suddenly changed his tone on the Chinese recognised Panchen Lama. The Dalai Lama said the Chinese Panchen Lama could be real. Is the Dalai Lama trying to tell us the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is also real? Or is he trying to take revenge on the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley for running away from him and the CTA? Whatever it is, the Dalai Lama and the CTA have to let us know which is the real Karmapa so there is no more confusion.

[Harold Musetescu]

The real and only question should be,

 re: The Fake 14th Dalai Lama is destroying the precious Gelugpa lineage! Can't CTA help?

 

[Harold Musetescu]

The 17th Karmapa Orgyen Trinley publicly turned his back on the 14th Dalai and his CTA in 2018.

At the 2018 Kagyu Monlan he publicly condemned the 5th Dalai Lama and his murderous ways against the Karma Kagyu.

This was a direct shot against the Dalai Lama lineage and his governments.

The rest of this article is from a article I posted here on this matter.

Quote
Harold Musetescu
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17th Karmapa publicly condemns murderous 5th Dalai Lama
« on: March 09, 2018, 04:33:05 PM »
Quote
The following is a quote from part of  the 17th Karmapa's speech at the 2018 Monlam.

He publicly states that the 5th Dalai Lama and his murderous Mongolian Army friends lead by Gushen Khan destroyed Karma Kagyu monasteries and lineages.

Quote
Likewise, if you think about the history of the Kagyu lineage, and in particular the Karma Kamtsang, there have been many losses. For example, when the Mongol Gushen invaded, their armies razed many Karma Kamtsang monasteries and many lineages of practices and explanations were lost.
Unquote

You can find all this at Tsem Rinpoche's website under the title "Karmapa Ogyen Trinley Dorje Explosive Special Message" dated March 09, 2018.

Finally we now see that even the 17th Karmapa stated that the Dalai Lama's lineage has engaged in the destruction of Monasteries and the Lineages.

He puts the blame squarely at the feet of the 5th Dalai Lama.

The same 5th Dalai Lama who attempted to murder Dorje Shugden with Fire Pujas.

The same 5th Dalai Lama who's Government was behind the MURDER of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen.

We know what with 5th Dalai Lama did to the Sakya, Karma Kagyu, Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen and Dorje Shugden.

We know what the 13th Dalai Lama did to Tengyeling Monastery, His Holiness Demo Tulku, His Eminence Nyari Tulku, Methar, Kache (Tsiu) Marpo's Protector Chapel and the Tengyeling Oracle and Lineage.

We know what the 14th Dalai Lama has done to Dorje Shugden and his followers.

We know what the 14th Dalai Lama has done by creating fake anti Dorje Tulkus like the fake Dome Geshe Rinpoche and Serkong Dorje Chang.

Now we have the voice of the 17th Karmapa tell all the world what he thinks.

Praise to the 17th Karmapa Ogyen Trinley.
Unquote

Orgyen Trinley has now become a citizen of Dominica and has turned his back on the Dalai Lama and his CTA.

They in return are now courting Thaye Dorje to be their puppet with the carrot of recognizing him as the true Karmapa.

Their present to him for doing their bidding with be the keys to Rumtek Monastery.

[Lawrence L]

Sad to say the truth loud out - The Dharamsala office (Dalai Lama's office) is just using these high lamas to gain money, fame and support. Like for example, one of the two Karmapas must be the fake one. IF the fake one is going to be Ugyen Thrinley, obviously he was Dharamsala's puppet and I am glad he is out from India and Dharamsala office's control now.

Dharamsala office couldn't care less about what is happening with the Karma Kagyu's lineage. I guess they are now scratching head thinking how to deal with the incarnation of Sharmapa. Maybe the Dharamsala office is going to recognise their own Sharmapa?

Oh dear, please, not again! 3 Karmapas, 2 Sharmapas, 2 Panchens, 2 Dromo Geshes, 2 Kundelings...

Dharamsala office is annoying