The Fake Karmapa is destroying the precious Karma Kagyu Lineage! Can't CTA help?

[PrajNa]

The result of having 2 Karmapa candidates is the splitting of Karma Kagyu sect with disharmony and conflicts. The only party that will be benefitted from this is the Tibetan government as they will be able to rule over them easily.

This really is a disaster. Although the 2 Karmapas had a monumental meeting,  the conundrum is still not resolved. The debate over who will hold the unofficial seat-in-exile at Rumtek Monastery, in Sikkim, India, persists. Thanks to the Tibetan leadership in Dharamsala, people are more confused now because it seems that after Karmapa Ogyen Trinley ran away, the Tibetan leadership tries to court Karmapa Thaye Dorje now. Who really is the real Karmapa? Why did Dharamsala switch side? 

[Tenzin K]

Obviously, we can’t have the fake Karmapa to lead the people in the wrong way. Since the Tibetan leadership is able to recognize another Karmapa they should also announce the fake one to prevent any confusion. The Tibetan leadership has recognized their own leaders in different sect so should be able to identify the fake Karmapa.

[Tenzin K]

It’s strange how CTA can come into the picture of recognizing another Karmapa. Never in their tradition that the Karmapa recognize in such and under what authority that CTA recognizes one is correct? Can CTA be held responsible if the one they recognize is not the real one? And by saying so how could CTA able to recognize? Can a secular body recognize the spiritual side? Even if it's recognized by the Dalai Lama it also violates the tradition of recognition by the lineage sect themselves.

[Rowntree]

Perhaps this is the post you are referring to http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/the-controversy/cta-and-the-kagyus/ I find this paragraph below particularly interesting. Among the four main traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, Kagyu is the only one that had ruled part of Tibet within the Tibetan history. I believe they will be happy to resume to rule in no time since the 15th Sharma Rinpoche and 17th Karmapa Thaye Dorje are under one roof now!

In retaliation, the Kagyus are rumoured to have procured the Fifth Dalai Lama’s hair and placed it under the steps at the front entrance of Tsurphu Monastery. This was done deliberately so that all who entered the monastery would have to symbolically step over the Dalai Lama, which was considered a grave insult. This incident is one of many that tells of the historic enmity between the Karma Kagyus and the Fifth Dalai Lama and his government. It is rumoured that the Fifth Dalai Lama’s hair is still under the Tsurphu Monastery steps. Even Geshe Sopa had heard of it and he states in his book that he never set foot in that monastery because he was afraid that the rumour might turn out to be true.

Thanks for posting this story. I remember someone posted this a few years ago, I couldn't find the post. Gaden Phodrang has never really had a good relationship with the Karma Kagyu. To ban the reincarnation of the 2nd highest lama of Karma Kagyu for almost 2 centuries definitely is not a friendly gesture Gaden Phodrang has shown show to Karma Kagyu.

If the relationship between Gaden Phodrang and the Karma Kagyu has been quite tense for so many years, how could we believe whatever action or decision that Gaden Phodrang (now CTA) made in relation to Karma Kagyu is with good intention?

Shamarpa and Karmapa are supposed to recognize each other's reincarnation. Putting the Shamarpa in exile and banning his reincarnation is like to amputate one of Karma Kagyu's legs. If someone amputated your left leg with no obvious valid reason before, are you going to trust him with your right leg? Letting the CTA recognized the Karmapa is just like that. Not even to mention the Gaden Phodrang has no right to be involved with the recognition of the Karmapa, even if it does, the process of the recognition of the 17th Karmapa is so rush, so unprofessional and without going thorough examination and proper procedure. Make it looks more like a power fight. I am surprised not many really fight hard to clarify this.

[Rowntree]

You are right. Money is money at the end of the day. "Don't make enemy with money" ~ the CTA's slogan for years! This is precisely why they did not announce who is the wrong Karmapa. Better sit on the fence and observe who can bring them more money! The CTA needs money and support as the Dalai Lama is getting older and this is their grand plan to secure their own interest! Welcome to Shangrila!

Wow! Thank you, Rowntree, for sharing the history of Ganden Podrang and the 10th Sharmapa. It is interesting how money could enter into the upper echelon of Buddhist Leaders. Guess, greed can still be a very strong pulling factor no matter what position you may be. It would seem that if the Dalai Lama should pass, then the next highest would be the Karmapa since the Panchen Lama is located in China. So the Karmapa is a very crucial piece of chess or pawn to the interested party, especially CTA. No wonder CTA dare not announce who the real Karmapa is. Don't want to cut their lifeline in case one or the other Karmapa does not work out. 

[PrajNa]

Obviously, we can’t have the fake Karmapa to lead the people in the wrong way. Since the Tibetan leadership is able to recognize another Karmapa they should also announce the fake one to prevent any confusion. The Tibetan leadership has recognized their own leaders in different sect so should be able to identify the fake Karmapa.

Agree with you Tenzin K. They really should announce which Karmapa is fake, and which is real. Tibetans are confused after the 2 Karmapas met.

[PrajNa]

You are right. Money is money at the end of the day. "Don't make enemy with money" ~ the CTA's slogan for years! This is precisely why they did not announce who is the wrong Karmapa. Better sit on the fence and observe who can bring them more money! The CTA needs money and support as the Dalai Lama is getting older and this is their grand plan to secure their own interest! Welcome to Shangrila!


I wonder when the Central Tibetan Administration will stop making things hard for Tibetans and creating more problems for Tibetans in exile.

As it is, many Tibetans will not be able to improve their conditions, and heartless Lobsang Sangay doesn't seem to care at all. What kind Sikyong is that?

[pemachen]

Agree with you Tenzin K. They really should announce which Karmapa is fake, and which is real. Tibetans are confused after the 2 Karmapas met.

I find it weird that the Central Tibetan Administration has been quiet about the 2 Karmapas meeting. How can they be quiet about such an important event and has no stand whatsoever?

Until now, they have not spoken about which Karmapa is fake after the meet up. I wonder if they are going to because if they say Thaye Dorje is fake, they will not get any support from Thaye Dorje's group and followers in the future.

[Tenzin K]

The recognition of Karmapa has never involved the Dalai Lama. Since the Dalai Lama has put his feet in then pls also advice which is the fake Karmapa. Don’t do things halfway and pls give a total solution. Since the Dalai Lama is the emanation of Chenrezig he should be able to provide us the answer as we don’t want to follow the wrong one and end up going to lower realms.

Dalai Lama pls give us your guidance and don't abandon us. NO one we can seek for help as all the time there is only one tradition of recognizing the Karmapa and Sharmapa but with your intervention, we need your kind advice.

[Drolma]

The recognition of Karmapa has never involved the Dalai Lama. Since the Dalai Lama has put his feet in then pls also advice which is the fake Karmapa. Don’t do things halfway and pls give a total solution. Since the Dalai Lama is the emanation of Chenrezig he should be able to provide us the answer as we don’t want to follow the wrong one and end up going to lower realms.

Dalai Lama pls give us your guidance and don't abandon us. NO one we can seek for help as all the time there is only one tradition of recognizing the Karmapa and Sharmapa but with your intervention, we need your kind advice.

Not only the Dalai Lama has the capability to recognise a real reincarnation, the CTA has the capability too! Look at how they condemn the 'fake' Panchen Lama recognised by the Chinese government, the CTA is very sure which is the real one and which is the fake one. If they are so capable, why are they keeping quiet now?

But hang on, can the Dalai Lama be wrong? He was so sure who was the real Panchen Lama. But recently, he said the Chinese recognised Panchen Lama is real too! So can we still believe what the Dalai Lama said? Perhaps the Karmapa recognised by the Dalai Lama is a fake? People are demanding the CTA and the Dalai Lama to give an answer because they are not sure anymore.

It is very unfair of the CTA for not further clarifying who the real Karmapa is. If the practitioners follow the fake Karmapa, they will be following the fake teaching, if they follow the fake teaching, they will go to hell. This is no joke. But it seems like the CTA does not care about the spirituality of the practitioners, they only care about their face and what benefit they can get from doing something. 

[Rowntree]

Wonder no more... because the Tibetans ain't gonna wait any longer! They are becoming Indian or Chinese citizens in no time! I am glad that they are finally awake from years of deceptions. Staying with the CTA and Lobsang Sangay is the same as jumping off the cliff. It is a dead end.

I wonder when the Central Tibetan Administration will stop making things hard for Tibetans and creating more problems for Tibetans in exile.

As it is, many Tibetans will not be able to improve their conditions, and heartless Lobsang Sangay doesn't seem to care at all. What kind Sikyong is that?

[Alex]

You are right. Money is money at the end of the day. "Don't make enemy with money" ~ the CTA's slogan for years! This is precisely why they did not announce who is the wrong Karmapa. Better sit on the fence and observe who can bring them more money! The CTA needs money and support as the Dalai Lama is getting older and this is their grand plan to secure their own interest! Welcome to Shangrila!


I wonder when the Central Tibetan Administration will stop making things hard for Tibetans and creating more problems for Tibetans in exile.

As it is, many Tibetans will not be able to improve their conditions, and heartless Lobsang Sangay doesn't seem to care at all. What kind Sikyong is that?

There is no way the Central Tibetan Administration will ever make things easy for Tibetans because they are not there to serve the Tibetans in exile anyway. They are there to serve themselves and their pockets. All they do during their term as one of the Tibetan leadership is to get as much money as they can so they can go overseas to enjoy the rest of their lives while ordinary Tibetans stuck in Tibetan settlements for the rest of their lives with no hope.

That is why most of the Tibetan leadership owns a foreign country passport. If Tibetan settlements are so great, why did they bother to get another passport? It is evident that they are planning their grand escape already. Just like Dhardon Sharling who resigned and enjoying her life in the west now; after all the damage she had done to the Tibetan community.

That is the main reason why after 60 years in India, the Tibetan government are still unable to make any substantial progress on the Tibetan cause. They are not focused on the aim and wasted precious time on petty fights instead of their common goal. Tibetan cause is a lost cause and Tibet will never be independent again. Tibetans will have to accept the fact now and move on.

[Tenzin K]

Having Tibetan leadership recognize their own Karmapa creating a split and a break of tradition of Karmapa. Is this acceptable? Why should Tibetan leadership have their own Karmapa and look at what happen to the Karmapa recognize by the Dalai Lama? The Tibetan leadership should quickly come in and resolve the issue. Make it once and for all to clear all doubts and be responsible to what they have done. The future of the Karmapa sect is in their hand!

[Tenzin K]

It seems that after the Tibetan leadership intervene the recognition of the Karmapa, they just leave it like that. Why not do it all the way and clear all the doubt. Many people are looking for the answer and how can it be 2 Karmapa and who has the ultimate power to make decision? Who will be the one take over the throne? and what will happen to the fake one?

Many things the Tibetan leadership should take full responsibility when they want to intervene the recognition. This is not just to install a reincarnate lama but its more than that. It's about the lineage, the followers, the future of the sect.

[Tenzin K]

I wonder if Tibetan leadership will announce which is the fake Karmapa? Even if both are the emanation Tibetan leadership should say something and don't keep quite. Both Karmapa has their own followers and any announcement could give an impact to either one. Tibetan leadership has to be very careful and caution on this. They have intervened into the recognition of the Karmapa which is not according to the tradition and anything goes wrong Tibetan leadership has to take full responsibility.