'Karmapa' Thaye Dorje rejects the Dalai Lama

[mountains]

Very significant

A hair cutting ceremony can be done when someone is going to be a monk. Or when a person is being recognized as a tulku. Besides that, it's rare there are hair cutting ceremonies for others reasons except for certain pujas.

Also the master who does the hair cutting should be someone of 'high standing', greatly respected and if possible a high lama with blessings. Many attendants of young tulkus will seek hair cutting ceremony with the highest or very respected lamas of their lineage. Many like to get this done by HH the Dalai Lama these days. So it is very unusual that Karmapa Thaye Dorje has his son's hair cutting done by Luding Khenchen Rinpoche who is Sakya and not even Karma Kagyu which Karmapa Thaye Dorje belongs to. This signifies a few things:

1. Definitely Karmapa Thaye Dorje's son is not becoming a monk at such a tender age. So the hair cutting signifies it is a incarnate lama or tulku.

2. To have his son's hair cut should be done by Dalai Lama but instead they have this done by Luding Khenchen Rinpoche shows an outright avoidance of Dalai Lama.

3. Also Karmapa Thaye Dorje is telling Dalai Lama and CTA (Tibetan govt in exile) that they don't need them. Karmapa Thaye Dorje does not need Dalai Lama or CTA to make it. They will be fine on their own. It is a very strong message to everyone.


Remember, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje has never taken one single photo with the Dalai Lama. Why is that? Because Karmapa Thaye Dorje and followers reject the Dalai Lama.

[SabS]

Thank you mountains for such clear indications of the significance in Karmapa, Thaye Dorje in having his son's hair cut by Luding Khenchen Rinpoche who is Sakya. I am guessing that the reason the Karmapa does not want his son to be a monk yet, is to be able to better protect his son and to guide him as he grows until the time is right for him to be one. Lol! Why would the Karmapa wish to have his photo taken with the Dalai Lama? After all, the Dalai Lama had never been of any significance to the Karma Kagyu lineage until he interfered with the recognition of the Karmapa. Well, the "recognised" Karmapa Orgyen Trinley Dorje ran away and is now citizen of the Dominican Republic. Hmmm, funny somehow real Masters don't seem to want association with the Dalai Lama and CTA. Guess they value the Dharma in its purity more than politics and popularity. The Tibetan Leaders of the exiled refugees are bringing down the precious lineages and the one valuable "product" they could "sell"...Tibetan Buddhism. Such a shame that instead of preserving this gift of legacy left by so many enlightened Masters, traceable all the way to Buddha Shakyamuni, the Tibetan Leaders destroy it themselves. Luckily for us, these true Masters like the Karmapa, HH Trijang Rinpoche, H.E. Tsem Rinpoche, H.E. Gangchen Rinpoche, H.E. Zasep Rinpoche, etc. stand true to their practice regardless of life threats, abuses and discrimination by the Tibetan Leaders and their followers.

These Leaders must realise that their numbers are dwindling fast and their failures in promises are not earning them any favours. Creating division by using the authentic Dorje Shugden practice is only lessening of their potential whereas unification of their people will bring the strength in the same vision. The choice is simple and in the hands of the Tibetan Leaders. Logical and right step would be to lift the ban on Dorje Shugden and together to work with the Chinese to fulfill the Dalai Lama's wish to go home.

[michaela]

Back in 2016, Lodreu Rabsel Rinpoche, the former general secretary to the 17th Karmapa Trinley Thaye Dorje wrote an open letter to complain about a series of persecutions suffered by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje by the Dalai Lama's followers. The letter was very daring, and he was clearly unafraid of the Dalai Lama.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/features/the-karmapa-oppressed-by-dalai-lama-loyalists/

I think that letter represents what the Karmapa Thinley Thaye Dorje's group think about the Dalai Lama.

I am not surprised to find out now that the Karmapa Thinley Thaye Dorje did not request the Dalai Lama to perform the hair-cutting ceremony of his son.

[Rowntree]

First, the Dalai Lama was at the Kagyu Monlam event in Bodhgaya walked passed an empty Karmapa Thaye Dorje's throne with no one greeting him. The Dalai Lama went with his entourage and a group of media intending to have a picture opportunity with the Karmapa, however, he was greeted by the Karmapa's cold and chilling shoulders. That is big news considering no one dares to go against the Dalai Lama and the CTA.

Second, the Karmapa seeks His Eminence Luding Khenchen Rinpoche, the 75th head of the Ngor tradition of the Sakya school of Tibetan Buddhism, to presides over the hair-cutting ceremony of his son. The Karmapa didn't get anyone on the Kagyu school but the Sakya. Again, slapping the Dalai Lama and CTA on their face, telling them the Karmapa does not need them. In addition, the Sakya school is no longer following the footsteps of the previous Sakya Trizin and his stand with the Dalai Lama and the CTA.

Third, the Karmapa is telling the world that his son is not ordinary and indirectly confirming the rumours that his consort has indeed given birth to the Sharmapa. Only high lama's incarnation will undertake this ceremony because the son is too young to be ordained as a monk.

Looks like the Kagyupas are replaying the history of the 5th Dalai Lama's time to rally against the CTA's ruling.

[Alex]

So it is very possible that the rumour of Karmapa Thaye Dorje's son will be Sharmapa is true. Sharmapa and Karmapa have been exhibiting such close relationship for decades now and it has been several times in the history where Karmapa and Sharmapa and in father and son relationship. This is to ensure the lineage to be clean and pure and their reincarnation will get the help and care that they need from each other.

It is amazing to see how high lamas sort of help each other out to ensure the Dharma to proliferate and stays pure. Now that Karmapa Thaye Dorje has a high tulku son which means he is most probably be the authentic Karmapa if there is only 1 emanation from the previous Karmapa.

Now that the Karmapa opens look for a Sakya High Lama to do the hair cutting ceremony for his son indicates that he is openly rejected, Dalai Lama. If Karmapa Thaye Dorje really wanted his son to be famous, he can just get him to have a few pictures with the Dalai Lama and he will have instant fame and get recognise by His Holiness. Since Karmapa Thaye Dorje did not do it that way, he is telling everyone in the world that Karma Kagyu has nothing to do with His Holiness the Dalai Lama and CTA should stop acting as if they have control over them.

[Rowntree]

There are two posts on the Karmapas on this forum but this one seems to be more popular http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6239.0. The Karmapas are definitely joining force to reunite their broken lineage thanks to the CTA, aka Tibetan Leadership, for endorsing the Tai Situ's choice of Karmapa.

Tai Situ is never the authorised person to recognise the Karmapa. It has always been the Sharmapa and only Sharmapa can do so. Tai Situ never had the authority to do so since the establishment of the Karmapa reincarnation lineage. Unfortunately, Tai Situ was interested in politics and greedy for the benefits. Otherwise, the 2 Karmapas issue will not arise.

Human greed and desire always cause issues for themselves and everyone related to them. In this case, although Tai Situ is a Rinpoche, we shouldn't assume he will act according to the dharma. However, we do not need to criticise him because we believe in karma and if he is not a real Rinpoche, he will have his karma awaits him.

[Drolma]

First, the Dalai Lama was at the Kagyu Monlam event in Bodhgaya walked passed an empty Karmapa Thaye Dorje's throne with no one greeting him. The Dalai Lama went with his entourage and a group of media intending to have a picture opportunity with the Karmapa, however, he was greeted by the Karmapa's cold and chilling shoulders. That is big news considering no one dares to go against the Dalai Lama and the CTA.

Second, the Karmapa seeks His Eminence Luding Khenchen Rinpoche, the 75th head of the Ngor tradition of the Sakya school of Tibetan Buddhism, to presides over the hair-cutting ceremony of his son. The Karmapa didn't get anyone on the Kagyu school but the Sakya. Again, slapping the Dalai Lama and CTA on their face, telling them the Karmapa does not need them. In addition, the Sakya school is no longer following the footsteps of the previous Sakya Trizin and his stand with the Dalai Lama and the CTA.

Third, the Karmapa is telling the world that his son is not ordinary and indirectly confirming the rumours that his consort has indeed given birth to the Sharmapa. Only high lama's incarnation will undertake this ceremony because the son is too young to be ordained as a monk.

Looks like the Kagyupas are replaying the history of the 5th Dalai Lama's time to rally against the CTA's ruling.

More and more people are going against the CTA and the Dalai Lama. In the past, only the politicians were doing that. For example Lukar Jam Atsok, Penpa Tsering and Dhamchoe Nyima. Now the Karmapas are also going against the CTA.

The Karmapa Ogyen Trinley was under the control of the CTA since his arrival in India. Now, he rebels by getting a Dominican passport and says bye bye to the CTA. He is not going back to India anymore. He has kind of cut his contact with the CTA and the Dalai Lama.

His meeting with Karmapa Thaye Dorje was also another big slap to the CTA. The CTA did not recognise the other Karmapa. All these years they only endorsed the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. But now the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley went against the CTA and went on to try to settle the division in Kagyu lineage himself by meeting up with the other Karmapa.

The CTA and the Dalai Lama are losing control now. I believe after the Karmapa incident, there will be more people including spiritual practitioners who will go against the CTA and the Dalai Lama.

[Tracy]

This is so embarrassing, the King of Tibet, the Dalai Lama was rejected by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Well, since the Dalai Lama did not recognise this Karmapa and the Dalai Lama is not someone significant to the Karma Kagyu lineage, why does the Karmapa need to show respect to the Dalai Lama? Their paths have never crossed for the past 30 over years, there is no need to cross the path now.

Without having any relationship with the Dalai Lama, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is completely free from bureaucracy, he has the freedom to travel around and give Dharma teachings. He didn't have to use his precious time on useless wordly activities such as getting involved in politics. It was a very wise choice to not have any connection with the Dalai Lama or the CTA.

The Karmapa Ogyen Trinley could not do much Dharma work as a result of his relationship with the CTA and the Dalai Lama. The CTA wanted to have full control of him and make him their political puppet. Thus, they don't want the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley to be too spiritual. They want the Karmpa Ogyen Trinley to sell Dharma for money and help them to control the Tibetans.

[vajratruth]

This is so embarrassing, the King of Tibet, the Dalai Lama was rejected by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Well, since the Dalai Lama did not recognise this Karmapa and the Dalai Lama is not someone significant to the Karma Kagyu lineage, why does the Karmapa need to show respect to the Dalai Lama? Their paths have never crossed for the past 30 over years, there is no need to cross the path now.

Without having any relationship with the Dalai Lama, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is completely free from bureaucracy, he has the freedom to travel around and give Dharma teachings. He didn't have to use his precious time on useless wordly activities such as getting involved in politics. It was a very wise choice to not have any connection with the Dalai Lama or the CTA.

The Karmapa Ogyen Trinley could not do much Dharma work as a result of his relationship with the CTA and the Dalai Lama. The CTA wanted to have full control of him and make him their political puppet. Thus, they don't want the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley to be too spiritual. They want the Karmpa Ogyen Trinley to sell Dharma for money and help them to control the Tibetans.

This article by Matthew Sinclair sums it up well:

Karmapa Thaye Dorje’s avoidance of the Dalai Lama and CTA should not be seen as an act of rebellion or even as insolence. Rather, it is a consequence of the gross misconduct of the Tibetan leadership that is increasingly marked by allegations of corruption, incompetence, sex scandals, infighting, interference in the internal affairs of Tibetan Buddhist schools and distortions of key tenets of Buddhism to suit their own purposes.

Karmapa Thaye Dorje is not alone in wanting to steer clear of the Tibetan leadership. Even the Dalai Lama-endorsed Karmapa Ogyen Trinley seems to have turned his back on the Tibetan leadership after leaving India in May 2017.

In fact, most lamas of the various traditions never did accept the Dalai Lama as their spiritual King. Political head maybe but even then, Gaden Phodrang only controlled about 1/3 of old Tibet. The rest of Tibetan regarded themselves as independent of the Dalai Lama's rule.

The irony here is that the Tibetan Buddhist school that would have supported the Dalai Lama i.e. the Gelug are now too splintered by the Dalai Lama and CTA's politics. In short, the Dalai Lama and CTA shot themselves in the foot when they illegally and immorally banned the practice of Dorje Shugden.

Read this new DS.com article about the significance of the Karmapa Thaye Dorje's son's hair cutting:

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-articles/is-karmapa-thaye-dorjes-son-the-incarnation-of-sharmapa-rinpoche/

[Drolma]

There are two posts on the Karmapas on this forum but this one seems to be more popular http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=6239.0. The Karmapas are definitely joining force to reunite their broken lineage thanks to the CTA, aka Tibetan Leadership, for endorsing the Tai Situ's choice of Karmapa.

Tai Situ is never the authorised person to recognise the Karmapa. It has always been the Sharmapa and only Sharmapa can do so. Tai Situ never had the authority to do so since the establishment of the Karmapa reincarnation lineage. Unfortunately, Tai Situ was interested in politics and greedy for the benefits. Otherwise, the 2 Karmapas issue will not arise.

Human greed and desire always cause issues for themselves and everyone related to them. In this case, although Tai Situ is a Rinpoche, we shouldn't assume he will act according to the dharma. However, we do not need to criticise him because we believe in karma and if he is not a real Rinpoche, he will have his karma awaits him.

It is interesting to know that the Karmapa Thaye Dorje's son is the reincarnation of Sharmapa Rinpoche. I think this is highly possible. Historically, the Karmapa and Sharmapa Rinpoche are always related. They can be uncle and nephew or even father and son. We shall wait and see when the official announcement is going to the 'real' Tibet.

It has never been the case that the Tai Si Tu Rinpoche recognises the Karma. Perhaps he has also taken a lot of money from the CTA to carry out CTA's plan to groom the Karmapa as the successor of the Dalai Lama. By now people should realise how the CTA operates. They use money and power to get people to be on their side.

The CTA will meddle in other people's affair if their intervention can bring them benefits. For example, in this case, the CTA wants to control the Karmapa because they need a successor for the Dalai Lama. Without a high lama, the CTA will lose their control of the Tibetans and they will not be able to get more money from their sponsors.

[thaimonk]

Karmapa Thaye Dorje Ignores the Dalai Lama

(1) Decades ago, the Shamarpa asked the Dalai Lama to endorse Thaye Dorje as the Karmapa. Shamarpa proved to the Dalai Lama that Thaye Dorje was the Karmapa. The Dalai Lama still refused as it will make the Dalai Lama look bad for endorsing Ogyen Trinley. ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJJXYAz3Bz0

It is known that Tai Situ Rinpoche recognized Ogyen Trinley by stealth. Tai Situ Rinpoche used the Dalai Lama's fame to promote his Ogyen Trinley candidate in order to secure the Karmapa wealth of many generations.

(2) Even though the Dalai Lama endorsed Ogyen Trinley as Karmapa, Thaye Dorje could not be restrained and continues to grow immensely in popularity all over the world. Even without the Dalai Lama's endorsement, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is growing in importance. Tai Situ Rinpoche thought that without the Dalai Lama's endorsement, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje would fall and become nothing. He was wrong.

(3) Shamarpa Rinpoche had asked the Dalai Lama to at least ordain Thaye Dorje as a monk when he was very young and the Dalai Lama refused. This refusal hurt Shamarpa and the Karmapa Thaye Dorje very much. The Dalai Lama sidelined Shamarpa Rinpoche and Thaye Dorje. It was a grievous insult and detrimental interference. In the Karma Kagyu tradition it is the Shamarpa who is the first and foremost to recognize the Karmapas and only in his absence do other regents recognize the Karmapas. Not only did the Dalai Lama interfere in Karma Kagyu affairs but the Dalai Lama took sides. That caused so much fighting and disharmony within the Karma Kagyu school of Buddhism. Tai Situ Rinpoche was wrong not to consult with Shamarpa Rinpoche in all of this.

(4) The Dalai Lama had no business interfering in Karma Kagyu traditions by recognizing a Karmapa. In the history of the Karma Kagyu school, there has not been one Karmapa recognized by a Dalai Lama nor did they ever need the Dalai Lama's endorsement. This interference by the Dalai Lama has caused the Karma Kagyu school to take two sides and broke them up and created much disharmony. The disharmony, fighting and mud-slinging as to which one is the real Karmapa has continued to this day in 2019.

(5) Shamarpa Rinpoche passed away in 2014 and it is up to the Karmapa to recognize his incarnation without the endorsement or interference of the Dalai Lama.

(6) Now the Karmapa Thaye Dorje recognizes his son born in 2018 as Shamarpa Rinpoche's incarnation and he does not ask the Dalai Lama to endorse this incarnation. He does not need it. The Dalai Lama has done enough damage. This will shift the dynamics of the Karma Kagyu school again in favor of the Shamarpa Rinpoche's side. Unfortunately, it will make Ogyen Trinley look strange and left out in the cold. Within the Kagyu school, the Shamarpa is the next highest incarnation after the Karmapa. The Karmapas always recognized Shamarpas and vice versa. It shows that the Karmapa Thaye Dorje has the full authority to recognize the next highest incarnation within their school on his own. This Shamarpa will be spiritually trained by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje himself without the influence of the aged Dalai Lama and his government-in-exile which most Karma Kagyus consider a regime.

(7) During the Kagyu Monlam prayers in Bodhgaya on January 2019, Thaye Dorje was there leading the Monlam (New Year's prayers) and so was the Dalai Lama in Bodhgaya, giving teachings in another location nearby. The Dalai Lama, while in Bodhgaya, wanted to meet Thaye Dorje but Thaye Dorje refused. Thaye Dorje avoided the Dalai Lama. It was an insult to the Dalai Lama that he had to accept for all the damage he had done in their Karmapa affair and Karma Kagyu school.

The Dalai Lama had sidelined Shamarpa and Thaye Dorje when asked to endorse Thaye Dorje decades ago. Now that the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has run away to the USA, the Dalai Lama wants to be friendly with Thaye Dorje so that he can get on the Karma Kagyu school's good side. Without the Dalai Lama's permission, the two Karmapas met in France and decided to mend the rift. This will make the Dalai Lama look bad. Even the Dalai Lama did not think in such a big way or a middle way to help mend the rift. Too bad and too late for the Dalai Lama to make friends with the Karma Kagyu school of Buddhism.

So much damage has been done. But the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is on the way to mending all this.

Karma Tsogyal

[SabS]

It is so wonderful to know that the Sharmapa is back in the folds of his lineage. It seems that the events are unfolding to right the wrongs that had been done by the Tibetan Leaders in interfering with the religious rights of others. Being in the position of presiding over all schools of Tibetan Buddhism should mean the expansion and wellbeing of all the individual sects, not break them apart and degenerate the followers in confused discrimination. It is no wonder that Tibet no longer exists as a country nor officially be recognized as Tibetans. The shoddy rule has contributed to all Tibetans now becoming Chinese. Such a sad state of affairs and the once proud nation where everyone pays respect has now the government degenerated to being professional beggars. An extreme example of Buddha's teachings of impermanence. May the Karma Kagyu lineage flourish under the rightful head of school.

[Drolma]

It is so wonderful to know that the Sharmapa is back in the folds of his lineage. It seems that the events are unfolding to right the wrongs that had been done by the Tibetan Leaders in interfering with the religious rights of others. Being in the position of presiding over all schools of Tibetan Buddhism should mean the expansion and wellbeing of all the individual sects, not break them apart and degenerate the followers in confused discrimination. It is no wonder that Tibet no longer exists as a country nor officially be recognized as Tibetans. The shoddy rule has contributed to all Tibetans now becoming Chinese. Such a sad state of affairs and the once proud nation where everyone pays respect has now the government degenerated to being professional beggars. An extreme example of Buddha's teachings of impermanence. May the Karma Kagyu lineage flourish under the rightful head of school.

You know, Buddhas have their ways of doing things to benefit all sentient beings. How they benefit us depends on our karma and the situation. As we are not realised and we don't have the clairvoyance, we will never know what the plan is. But we must have trust in the 3 Jewels and our teacher.

Some people say both Karmapas are real. The previous Karmapa knew there would be obstacles in the future. In order to preserve their precious lineage, he emanated into 2 (or perhaps 3) human forms. While one is 'sacrificed' to the CTA's political game, the other Karmapa could focus on his learning. And the most amazing thing is, one of the Karmapas took a consort and Sharma Rinpoche took rebirth as his son!

Similarly, for the Dorje Shugden ban, Trijang Rinpoche said the Dalai Lama did this for a higher purpose. Trijang Rinpoche advised us not to lose faith in both the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden. If the Dalai Lama did not make Dorje Shugden a controversy, I think not many people will know Dorje Shugden.

[Alex]

Why did he try to even want to try to get close to His Holiness the Dalai Lama? Look at what the Tibetan leadership did to Karmapa Ogyen Trinley. Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is depressed and feels like he is unworthy of being the Karmapa. He fled India and decided not to return to and even took up a Dominican passport. This is a loud testimony of how Tibetan leadership treated their own people.

On the other hand, Tibetan leadership is the one who rejected Karma Thaye Dorje first and even refuses to ordain him. Now, Karmapa Thaye Dorje is doing well while Karmapa Ogyen Trinley is not doing so well and got himself involved in a relationship scandal. I guess Tibetan leadership is trying to get themselves a backup Karmapa in case the one they have now did not work out in the end?

They tried to ambush Karmapa Thaye Dorje with the media at the Kagyu Monlam that he preceded but he was not there that day. I guess he must have heard and deliberately went missing to avoid them. The Tibetan leadership is such a bad company to have around because whatever they do is to get benefits for themselves.

[daka]

To CTA, religion is just a political tool and religious leaders are their political puppet. The sad thing is that even the Dalai Lama allowed this to happen. He knew Karmapa Thaye Dorje is the real Karmapa yet all these years he never said anything to clarify. I guess it's because he knew Sharmapa Rinpoche will never listen to him for political reason. Therefore, he let Karmapa Thaye Dorje to survive on his own, he never even took one photo with this Karmapa, on the contrary he showed full support to Karmapa Ogyen Trinley which makes Karmapa Thaye Dorje's life even harder as Tibetan might think he is the fake one. Fortunately Karmapa Thaye Dorje not only survive well but he even manage to gather a huge group of followers.

Now the Dalai Lama endorsed Karmapa has gone, then suddenly after so many years, the Dalai Lama suddenly wants to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Will anyone with a conscious mind believe what he is doing now is for the benefit of Karmapa Thaye Dorje? At least I don't think so.