Karmapa Thaye Dorje with his son Sharmapa Rinpoche ignores the Dalai Lama

[thaimonk]

Karmapa Thaye Dorje Ignores the Dalai Lama

(1) Decades ago, the Shamarpa asked the Dalai Lama to endorse Thaye Dorje as the Karmapa. Shamarpa proved to the Dalai Lama that Thaye Dorje was the Karmapa. The Dalai Lama still refused as it will make the Dalai Lama look bad for endorsing Ogyen Trinley. ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJJXYAz3Bz0

It is known that Tai Situ Rinpoche recognized Ogyen Trinley by stealth. Tai Situ Rinpoche used the Dalai Lama's fame to promote his Ogyen Trinley candidate in order to secure the Karmapa wealth of many generations.

(2) Even though the Dalai Lama endorsed Ogyen Trinley as Karmapa, Thaye Dorje could not be restrained and continues to grow immensely in popularity all over the world. Even without the Dalai Lama's endorsement, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is growing in importance. Tai Situ Rinpoche thought that without the Dalai Lama's endorsement, the Karmapa Thaye Dorje would fall and become nothing. He was wrong.

(3) Shamarpa Rinpoche had asked the Dalai Lama to at least ordain Thaye Dorje as a monk when he was very young and the Dalai Lama refused. This refusal hurt Shamarpa and the Karmapa Thaye Dorje very much. The Dalai Lama sidelined Shamarpa Rinpoche and Thaye Dorje. It was a grievous insult and detrimental interference. In the Karma Kagyu tradition it is the Shamarpa who is the first and foremost to recognize the Karmapas and only in his absence do other regents recognize the Karmapas. Not only did the Dalai Lama interfere in Karma Kagyu affairs but the Dalai Lama took sides. That caused so much fighting and disharmony within the Karma Kagyu school of Buddhism. Tai Situ Rinpoche was wrong not to consult with Shamarpa Rinpoche in all of this.

(4) The Dalai Lama had no business interfering in Karma Kagyu traditions by recognizing a Karmapa. In the history of the Karma Kagyu school, there has not been one Karmapa recognized by a Dalai Lama nor did they ever need the Dalai Lama's endorsement. This interference by the Dalai Lama has caused the Karma Kagyu school to take two sides and broke them up and created much disharmony. The disharmony, fighting and mud-slinging as to which one is the real Karmapa has continued to this day in 2019.

(5) Shamarpa Rinpoche passed away in 2014 and it is up to the Karmapa to recognize his incarnation without the endorsement or interference of the Dalai Lama.

(6) Now the Karmapa Thaye Dorje recognizes his son born in 2018 as Shamarpa Rinpoche's incarnation and he does not ask the Dalai Lama to endorse this incarnation. He does not need it. The Dalai Lama has done enough damage. This will shift the dynamics of the Karma Kagyu school again in favor of the Shamarpa Rinpoche's side. Unfortunately, it will make Ogyen Trinley look strange and left out in the cold. Within the Kagyu school, the Shamarpa is the next highest incarnation after the Karmapa. The Karmapas always recognized Shamarpas and vice versa. It shows that the Karmapa Thaye Dorje has the full authority to recognize the next highest incarnation within their school on his own. This Shamarpa will be spiritually trained by the Karmapa Thaye Dorje himself without the influence of the aged Dalai Lama and his government-in-exile which most Karma Kagyus consider a regime.

(7) During the Kagyu Monlam prayers in Bodhgaya on January 2019, Thaye Dorje was there leading the Monlam (New Year's prayers) and so was the Dalai Lama in Bodhgaya, giving teachings in another location nearby. The Dalai Lama, while in Bodhgaya, wanted to meet Thaye Dorje but Thaye Dorje refused. Thaye Dorje avoided the Dalai Lama. It was an insult to the Dalai Lama that he had to accept for all the damage he had done in their Karmapa affair and Karma Kagyu school.

The Dalai Lama had sidelined Shamarpa and Thaye Dorje when asked to endorse Thaye Dorje decades ago. Now that the Karmapa Ogyen Trinley has run away to the USA, the Dalai Lama wants to be friendly with Thaye Dorje so that he can get on the Karma Kagyu school's good side. Without the Dalai Lama's permission, the two Karmapas met in France and decided to mend the rift. This will make the Dalai Lama look bad. Even the Dalai Lama did not think in such a big way or a middle way to help mend the rift. Too bad and too late for the Dalai Lama to make friends with the Karma Kagyu school of Buddhism.

So much damage has been done. But the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is on the way to mending all this.

Karma Tsogyal

[thaimonk]

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[SabS]

Thank you for sharing this information and I am not surprised that Karmapa Thaye Dorje would ignore the Dalai Lama. After all, when they had given the Dalai Lama such respect when requesting for recognition of Karmapa Thaye Dorje by the Sharmapa when it is entirely not necessary as the Sharmapa has the absolute authority over Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism in lieu of Karmapa. It is the Sharmapa's right to recognize the reincarnation of the Karmapa. So it is very rude of the Dalai Lama to even refuse the courtesy to ordain the Karmapa as a monk and that is such a slap in the face. Despite all these, Karmapa grew in fame and his enlightened activities spread which proves his attainments to everyone. And now the Sharmapa is back in the folds with the Karmapa as his father. No interferences from out of their school. Really wonderful to know all are falling into place and Karma Kagyu is growing from strength to strength. The Dalai Lama is not needed nor his endorsement necessary. 

[daka]

At the first place, Dalai Lama has no right to interfere with Karma Kagyu internal affair at all. It's because of Dalai Lama's interference, Karma Kagyu has to face the two Karmapa issue. Of course Karmapa Thaye Dorje and Sharmapa Rinpoche knew that very well. I am not surprise at all they ignores the Dalai Lama. In fact, I am happy to see that. It shows to the Tibetan world that they should fight for whatever is right, and don't have to blindly follow the dictatorship of the current Tibeten government. Now is 21st century. Everyone can easily access to internet and whatever information they want. No one is going to believe in old feudalism anymore.

[Pema8]

It is such good news that the Karmapa Thaye Dorje’s son has been recognised as the Sharmapa. Rejoice!

It is understandable that Thaye Dorje did not want to meet with the CTA resp. the Dalai Lama. The CTA's reputation with all the scandals and misconduct is now known for its corruption, incompetence, sex scandals, infighting, interference in the internal affairs of Tibetan Buddhist schools and distortions of key tenets of Buddhism, is so embarrassing.

The bad behaviour of the CTA is known all over the world.

[vajratruth]

Thank you for sharing this information and I am not surprised that Karmapa Thaye Dorje would ignore the Dalai Lama. After all, when they had given the Dalai Lama such respect when requesting for recognition of Karmapa Thaye Dorje by the Sharmapa when it is entirely not necessary as the Sharmapa has the absolute authority over Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism in lieu of Karmapa. It is the Sharmapa's right to recognize the reincarnation of the Karmapa. So it is very rude of the Dalai Lama to even refuse the courtesy to ordain the Karmapa as a monk and that is such a slap in the face. Despite all these, Karmapa grew in fame and his enlightened activities spread which proves his attainments to everyone. And now the Sharmapa is back in the folds with the Karmapa as his father. No interferences from out of their school. Really wonderful to know all are falling into place and Karma Kagyu is growing from strength to strength. The Dalai Lama is not needed nor his endorsement necessary.

More than just a slap in the face, it shows the Dalai Lama to be flippant and having no qualms going back on his word. The Shamarpa showed tremendous grace in this entire Karmapa debacle and had the Dalai Lama proceeded to give Thaye Dorje semi-monk vows it would at least make up for his hand in the disaster.

In a way it is a good outcome because it meant that the Karmapa Thaye Dorje has no spiritual bond with the Dalai Lama and is today free of all such encumbrance. I am sure the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is glad just by looking at the bind Ogyen Trinley is by his association with the Dalai Lama clique.

Incidentally, I have not heard a whimper from Tai Situpa over this ordeal. Is he still around or has he gone to ground because of some other shenanigan?

[Drolma]

If you want to lose your reputation, money and credibility, then go and make friend with the CTA. Whoever is associated with the CTA will only bring bad luck to themselves because everything the CTA does is bad. They have not done any good thing in the past 60 years.

Countries who used to be the CTA's friends like Nepal, Italy, Switzerland have decided to be friendly with China all because China can help them grow the economy in their country. By associating with the CTA, many opportunities are lost. There is no advantage to be associated with the CTA at all!

The Karmapa Thaye Dorje definitely doesn't need an endorsement from the Dalai Lama, they are of different lineages. As the CTA's influence is getting weaker and they have less support from people, the Karmapa doesn't see the need to pay respect to the CTA. To begin with, the CTA was arrogant to him in the first place. Perhaps in future, we will see more and more people going against the useless CTA. It is time they pack their bag and go home!

[SabS]

Thank you for sharing this information and I am not surprised that Karmapa Thaye Dorje would ignore the Dalai Lama. After all, when they had given the Dalai Lama such respect when requesting for recognition of Karmapa Thaye Dorje by the Sharmapa when it is entirely not necessary as the Sharmapa has the absolute authority over Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism in lieu of Karmapa. It is the Sharmapa's right to recognize the reincarnation of the Karmapa. So it is very rude of the Dalai Lama to even refuse the courtesy to ordain the Karmapa as a monk and that is such a slap in the face. Despite all these, Karmapa grew in fame and his enlightened activities spread which proves his attainments to everyone. And now the Sharmapa is back in the folds with the Karmapa as his father. No interferences from out of their school. Really wonderful to know all are falling into place and Karma Kagyu is growing from strength to strength. The Dalai Lama is not needed nor his endorsement necessary.

More than just a slap in the face, it shows the Dalai Lama to be flippant and having no qualms going back on his word. The Shamarpa showed tremendous grace in this entire Karmapa debacle and had the Dalai Lama proceeded to give Thaye Dorje semi-monk vows it would at least make up for his hand in the disaster.

In a way it is a good outcome because it meant that the Karmapa Thaye Dorje has no spiritual bond with the Dalai Lama and is today free of all such encumbrance. I am sure the Karmapa Thaye Dorje is glad just by looking at the bind Ogyen Trinley is by his association with the Dalai Lama clique.

Incidentally, I have not heard a whimper from Tai Situpa over this ordeal. Is he still around or has he gone to ground because of some other shenanigan?

Lols, I would say that Tai Situpa would have gone to ground, if he were smart. I don't think it would be presumptuous to say he may have received a huge endorsement for putting Karmapa Ogyen Trinley into the Tibetan Leaders hands. Probably made lots of enemies in splitting his own sect. with the two Karmapas and now the debacle with Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, the Tibetan Leaders may look to him for answers. After these leaders are famous for blaming others for their mistakes, aren't they? Look how they shoddily treated so many high attained Lamas just for a legitimate and authentic practice of Dorje Shugden. Even the Gurus of the Dalai Lama are not spared and just to cover up failed promises by the Tibetan Leaders to their people. So ungrateful! Especially when it was Dorje Shugden who had saved the Dalai Lama's life. Guess karma really did come full force for disparaging so many attained beings in this ban. Any notable leaders of the society do you see? Even the Anti-Shugden monasteries are in the decline when once they stood proud of being pure lineage holders of Buddha's teachings before the discrimination and segregation brought on by the ban. Maybe Lobsang Sangay runs a professional school of beggars???

[Alex]

Who to blame? Karmapa Thaye Dorje is smart to not get himself to be associated with people like Tibetan leadership because they can only bring troubles and more troubles. Why would the Tibetan leadership want to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje anyways?

They are the one who does not agree for him to be the Karmapa and they installed their own Karmapa instead. By doing that, they are telling the world that they do not agree with him being the Karmapa and he is the fake one. Now suddenly the CTA wants to get close to him and even tried to "bum" into him with media at the Kagyu Monlam that he precedes.

Karmapa Thaye Dorje is known exactly what they want to do and that is why he is missing from the festival that day. He is smart to keep his distance especially now that his son is believed to be the Sharmapa. The events had an interesting turn and now we shall see that is the Tibetan leadership's next move.

[SabS]

Who to blame? Karmapa Thaye Dorje is smart to not get himself to be associated with people like Tibetan leadership because they can only bring troubles and more troubles. Why would the Tibetan leadership want to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje anyways?

They are the one who does not agree for him to be the Karmapa and they installed their own Karmapa instead. By doing that, they are telling the world that they do not agree with him being the Karmapa and he is the fake one. Now suddenly the CTA wants to get close to him and even tried to "bum" into him with media at the Kagyu Monlam that he precedes.

Karmapa Thaye Dorje is known exactly what they want to do and that is why he is missing from the festival that day. He is smart to keep his distance especially now that his son is believed to be the Sharmapa. The events had an interesting turn and now we shall see that is the Tibetan leadership's next move.

Yes, it is interesting isn't it. How the Karmapa Thaye Dorje just was not there when the Dalai Lama wishes to "accidentally bump" into him. Of course the "accidentally" is debatable as the Dalai Lama actually had film crews on standby to film the event. Wonder if the Dalai Lama wanted to speak to Karmapa Thaye Dorje about being his successor? After all, the other ran away and there are no suitable candidates the Anti-Shugden monasteries to carry out his job of controlling CTA and Lobsang Sangay. Oh, of course, the Karmapa is rich I heard. It does help to grease the CTA into good behavior? Lol!

[Alex]

Who to blame? Karmapa Thaye Dorje is smart to not get himself to be associated with people like Tibetan leadership because they can only bring troubles and more troubles. Why would the Tibetan leadership want to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje anyways?

They are the one who does not agree for him to be the Karmapa and they installed their own Karmapa instead. By doing that, they are telling the world that they do not agree with him being the Karmapa and he is the fake one. Now suddenly the CTA wants to get close to him and even tried to "bum" into him with media at the Kagyu Monlam that he precedes.

Karmapa Thaye Dorje is known exactly what they want to do and that is why he is missing from the festival that day. He is smart to keep his distance especially now that his son is believed to be the Sharmapa. The events had an interesting turn and now we shall see that is the Tibetan leadership's next move.

Yes, it is interesting isn't it. How the Karmapa Thaye Dorje just was not there when the Dalai Lama wishes to "accidentally bump" into him. Of course the "accidentally" is debatable as the Dalai Lama actually had film crews on standby to film the event. Wonder if the Dalai Lama wanted to speak to Karmapa Thaye Dorje about being his successor? After all, the other ran away and there are no suitable candidates the Anti-Shugden monasteries to carry out his job of controlling CTA and Lobsang Sangay. Oh, of course, the Karmapa is rich I heard. It does help to grease the CTA into good behavior? Lol!

Now we know that Karmapa Thaye Dorje is clairvoyant and he knows what is the CTA is up to. He is very clever to have avoid the Tibetan leadership because anything that associated with the Tibetan leadership will never be good and always be problematic.
?It is quite obvious that the Tibetan leadership is trying to get Karmapa Thaye Dorje to be His Holiness successor. He is a very powerful high lama which makes him very suitable in replacing His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
s
The Tibetan leadership tried to groom Karmapa Ogyen Trisley to be the successor but they failed miserably and Karmapa Ogyen Trinley fled India and gotten himself a new passport while he is well.

[Alex]

Who to blame? Karmapa Thaye Dorje is smart to not get himself to be associated with people like Tibetan leadership because they can only bring troubles and more troubles. Why would the Tibetan leadership want to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje anyways?

They are the one who does not agree for him to be the Karmapa and they installed their own Karmapa instead. By doing that, they are telling the world that they do not agree with him being the Karmapa and he is the fake one. Now suddenly the CTA wants to get close to him and even tried to "bum" into him with media at the Kagyu Monlam that he precedes.

Karmapa Thaye Dorje is known exactly what they want to do and that is why he is missing from the festival that day. He is smart to keep his distance especially now that his son is believed to be the Sharmapa. The events had an interesting turn and now we shall see that is the Tibetan leadership's next move.

Yes, it is interesting isn't it. How the Karmapa Thaye Dorje just was not there when the Dalai Lama wishes to "accidentally bump" into him. Of course the "accidentally" is debatable as the Dalai Lama actually had film crews on standby to film the event. Wonder if the Dalai Lama wanted to speak to Karmapa Thaye Dorje about being his successor? After all, the other ran away and there are no suitable candidates the Anti-Shugden monasteries to carry out his job of controlling CTA and Lobsang Sangay. Oh, of course, the Karmapa is rich I heard. It does help to grease the CTA into good behavior? Lol!

Who to blame? Karmapa Thaye Dorje is smart to not get himself to be associated with people like Tibetan leadership because they can only bring troubles and more troubles. Why would the Tibetan leadership want to get close to Karmapa Thaye Dorje anyways?

They are the one who does not agree for him to be the Karmapa and they installed their own Karmapa instead. By doing that, they are telling the world that they do not agree with him being the Karmapa and he is the fake one. Now suddenly the CTA wants to get close to him and even tried to "bum" into him with media at the Kagyu Monlam that he precedes.

Karmapa Thaye Dorje is known exactly what they want to do and that is why he is missing from the festival that day. He is smart to keep his distance especially now that his son is believed to be the Sharmapa. The events had an interesting turn and now we shall see that is the Tibetan leadership's next move.

Yes, it is interesting isn't it. How the Karmapa Thaye Dorje just was not there when the Dalai Lama wishes to "accidentally bump" into him. Of course the "accidentally" is debatable as the Dalai Lama actually had film crews on standby to film the event. Wonder if the Dalai Lama wanted to speak to Karmapa Thaye Dorje about being his successor? After all, the other ran away and there are no suitable candidates the Anti-Shugden monasteries to carry out his job of controlling CTA and Lobsang Sangay. Oh, of course, the Karmapa is rich I heard. It does help to grease the CTA into good behavior? Lol!

Now we know that Karmapa Thaye Dorje is clairvoyant and he knows what is the CTA is up to. He is very clever to have avoided the Tibetan leadership because anything that associated with the Tibetan leadership will never be good and always be problematic.
?It is quite obvious that the Tibetan leadership is trying to get Karmapa Thaye Dorje to be His Holiness successor. He is a very powerful high lama which makes him very suitable in replacing His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
s
The Tibetan leadership tried to groom Karmapa Ogyen Trisley to be the successor but they failed miserably and Karmapa Ogyen Trinley fled India and gotten himself a new passport while he is well.

Now we know that Karmapa Thaye Dorje is clairvoyant and he knows what is the CTA is up to. He is very clever to have avoid the Tibetan leadership because anything that associated with the Tibetan leadership will never be good and always be problematic. Look at their Tibetans in exile, are they going a good job in leading them?

?It is quite obvious that the Tibetan leadership is trying to get Karmapa Thaye Dorje to be His Holiness successor. He is a very powerful high lama which makes him very suitable in repalcing His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Not to mention that he already has a high number of followers and many Dharma center under his supervision.

The Tibetan leadership tried to groom Karmapa Ogyen Trisley to be the successor but they failed miserably.  He fled India and gotten himself a new passport while he expressed his depression online for everyone to see. He complained about the Tibetan leadership and how is not conducive for him to do carry out his duties as a Karmapa.

[Drolma]

At the first place, Dalai Lama has no right to interfere with Karma Kagyu internal affair at all. It's because of Dalai Lama's interference, Karma Kagyu has to face the two Karmapa issue. Of course Karmapa Thaye Dorje and Sharmapa Rinpoche knew that very well. I am not surprise at all they ignores the Dalai Lama. In fact, I am happy to see that. It shows to the Tibetan world that they should fight for whatever is right, and don't have to blindly follow the dictatorship of the current Tibeten government. Now is 21st century. Everyone can easily access to internet and whatever information they want. No one is going to believe in old feudalism anymore.

You are right to say that. In the first place, the Dalai Lama does not have the right to interfere with the recognition of reincarnated lama of another lineage. Each tradition has its own system to recognise their reincarnated lama, they don't interfere with each other. Thus, the only reason the Dalai Lama and the CTA wanted to recognise or give the endorsement to the so-called real Karmpa was with political agenda. They wanted to make the Karmapa the successor of the Dalai Lama.

Historically, Tibetans have always been ruled by a spiritual figure who is the Dalai Lama. The person who can command the people are not the officials of the government but the Dalai Lama. Even though the 14th Dalai Lama wants to change the situation by stepping down as a political head, the Tibetans still listen to the Dalai Lama more than the CTA.

The Dalai Lama and the CTA know that they have to somehow find another spiritual leader to pick up the baton and the next best candidate is the Karmapa. Unfortunately, the Karmapa they have chosen has run away. The other Karmapa is not interested in getting involved either. The Karmapa Thaye Dorje has no reason to get into the good book of the CTA or Dalai Lama because he is doing so well without them. Therefore, I am also not surprised the Karmapa Thaye Dorje just totally ignores the Dalai Lama. 

[Alex]

Karmapa Thaye Dorje and his son Sharmapa Rinpoche has every right to ignore His Holiness the Dalai Lama. They are from an entirely different sect and His Holiness the Dalai Lama has no jurisdiction or authority in the Karma Kagyu sect. Contrary to what the public believes, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is not the leader of Tibetan Buddhism and he is not even the leader of Gelug sect which he belongs to.

He commands the respect of all the sects because he is bringing Tibetan Buddhism to the entire world and he is working tirelessly for the spread of Buddhism. On another note, he is the most famous lama in the entire world and being associated with him will bring benefit for oneself and also the monastery or Dharma center. That is why many seek for His Holiness's approval or to be associated with him.

However, Karmapa Thaye Dorje made the right choice for not associated with His Holiness because His Holiness is associated with the Tibetan government which is proven to be bad news. They are better off without the influence of the Tibetan government to maintain the purity of their lineage and not to mentioned that there will be fewer problems.

[Tracy]

The fact that the Dalai Lama is ignored clearly shows that the Tibetans are losing confident and their respect to the Dalai Lama and the CTA. For the past few years, the Dalai Lamas has shown many mistakes especially making offensive comments. Many international people have lost their respect for the Dalai Lama as well.

The Karmapa Thaye Dorje doesn't really need the Dalai Lama's endorsement to confirm his status. He was recognised by his own lineage according to its tradition and this is enough. No lamas of other lineages have any significance in the recognition of Karma Kagyu Tulku.

The CTA and the Dalai Lama should be alarmed by now. The Karma Kagyu lamas are going against them, it is just a matter of time lamas of other lineages will do the same. If they don't change the way they deal with the Tibetans or do something beneficial to the Tibetans, they will go down very fast. Soon, they will lose support from all Tibetans and they will have to dissolve. This will be good news to Dorje Shugden followers as well, it means the ban is no longer valid.