Karmapa Thaye Dorje with his son Sharmapa Rinpoche ignores the Dalai Lama

[dsnowlion]

Now that both Karmapa recognises the son of Karmapa Thaye Dorje to be the new incarnation of Sharmapa Rinpoche, the whole world will know who is the real Karmapa which is the father of the new Sharmapa Rinpoche, Karmapa Thaye Dorje. CTA must be furious for their Karmapa to make such recognition. What will the CTA do now?

Yes it is probably a BIG SLAP on CTA's face But Ngawang if you read Tracy's comments before yours, I think that might get you thinking and give you a different perspective... like maybe there is 2 Karmapas and the one the Dalai Lama recognise is also Karmapa. Therefore, the Dalai Lama is not wrong in recognition but he should not have meddled into some other people's lineage and tradition that does not involve and concerns him. All this just makes things complicated and there is karma for sure.

So now the karma is, China is wanting to meddle with the recognition of the next Dalai Lama... so obviously CTA and everyone don't like that and does not want that... well, that was exactly how the Karmakagyus were feeing then when the Dalai Lama decided to butt in on their recognition of their Lineage master. That is all I can say to this... proves to me karma is above any holy being. Sorry.

[Harold Musetescu]

Now that both Karmapa recognises the son of Karmapa Thaye Dorje to be the new incarnation of Sharmapa Rinpoche, the whole world will know who is the real Karmapa which is the father of the new Sharmapa Rinpoche, Karmapa Thaye Dorje. CTA must be furious for their Karmapa to make such recognition. What will the CTA do now?

Yes it is probably a BIG SLAP on CTA's face But Ngawang if you read Tracy's comments before yours, I think that might get you thinking and give you a different perspective... like maybe there is 2 Karmapas and the one the Dalai Lama recognise is also Karmapa. Therefore, the Dalai Lama is not wrong in recognition but he should not have meddled into some other people's lineage and tradition that does not involve and concerns him. All this just makes things complicated and there is karma for sure.

So now the karma is, China is wanting to meddle with the recognition of the next Dalai Lama... so obviously CTA and everyone don't like that and does not want that... well, that was exactly how the Karmakagyus were feeing then when the Dalai Lama decided to butt in on their recognition of their Lineage master. That is all I can say to this... proves to me karma is above any holy being. Sorry.

What terrifies the Dalai Lama and the CTA is that there are now two 17th Karmapas and two 11th Panchen Lamas.

If there can be two Karmapas and two 11th Panchen Lamas then there can be TWO 15th Dalai Lamas.

That is what terrifies them!!!

[Tenzin K]

Now that both Karmapa recognises the son of Karmapa Thaye Dorje to be the new incarnation of Sharmapa Rinpoche, the whole world will know who is the real Karmapa which is the father of the new Sharmapa Rinpoche, Karmapa Thaye Dorje. CTA must be furious for their Karmapa to make such recognition. What will the CTA do now?

Personally I rejoice to see the 2 Karmapas working together. I feel this is harmony, peace and a great example of the enlightened beings working together to bring spiritual benefits to many people. I just felt that both of them may be the emanations of the Karmapa. If not they must be highly attained to show us what they can do together to benefit people instead of pointing differences and drag down the dharma practice. This is really beautiful.

[Tracy]

Now that both Karmapa recognises the son of Karmapa Thaye Dorje to be the new incarnation of Sharmapa Rinpoche, the whole world will know who is the real Karmapa which is the father of the new Sharmapa Rinpoche, Karmapa Thaye Dorje. CTA must be furious for their Karmapa to make such recognition. What will the CTA do now?

Personally I rejoice to see the 2 Karmapas working together. I feel this is harmony, peace and a great example of the enlightened beings working together to bring spiritual benefits to many people. I just felt that both of them may be the emanations of the Karmapa. If not they must be highly attained to show us what they can do together to benefit people instead of pointing differences and drag down the dharma practice. This is really beautiful.

I see hope in Karma Kagyu lineage, the jointly written long life prayer for the Sharmapa by the two Karmapas shows that both of them want to unit Karma Kaguy lineage. They know if the two Karmapa dispute does not resolve, Karma Kagyu lineage will remain split which is not healthy at all.

When will the lamas of the anti-Shugden and pro-Shugden camp going to reconcile and work together in preserving the Gelug lineage? The two Karmapas are showing a very good example that unity and harmony are very important if we want things to move forward. We have to accept and respect differences. There are 84000 ways to practice in order to gain enlightenment, why must the CTA or Dalai Lama force their way on others?

[dsnowlion]

Personally I rejoice to see the 2 Karmapas working together. I feel this is harmony, peace and a great example of the enlightened beings working together to bring spiritual benefits to many people. I just felt that both of them may be the emanations of the Karmapa. If not they must be highly attained to show us what they can do together to benefit people instead of pointing differences and drag down the dharma practice. This is really beautiful.

I AGREE because if you are a high lama or really practising Buddha's dharma teachings and some big-time incarnation Buddha holiness etc. etc... then all the more you should act like one, without bias, anger, jealousy and definitely act out of great compassion, hence there should never be any dispute what so ever. That's the true spirit of DHARMA and Buddha's teachings. REJOICE to them and an excellent example to their followers!

I see hope in Karma Kagyu lineage, the jointly written long-life prayer for the Sharmapa by the two Karmapas shows that both of them want to unit Karma Kaguy lineage. They know if the two Karmapa dispute does not resolve, Karma Kagyu lineage will remain split which is not healthy at all.

YES people should be united... EVEN if they have a different religion or belief... what more if they are of the same spiritual lineage. Any leaders who tries to SPLIT their people are obviously operating out of jealousy and greed. That means they do not abide by the Buddha's teachings, hence not worthy to follow.   

When will the lamas of the anti-Shugden and pro-Shugden camp going to reconcile and work together in preserving the Gelug lineage? The two Karmapas are showing a very good example that unity and harmony are very important if we want things to move forward. We have to accept and respect differences. There are 84000 ways to practice in order to gain enlightenment, why must the CTA or Dalai Lama force their way on others?

VERY GOOD QUESTIONS - This is what we Shugdenpas are all waiting to see... will there be true Buddhist practitioners to stand up, speak up and say something because this SPLIT has created so much disharmony, pain and suffering to so many. It is unDharmic and unBuddhist to behave in such a manner. May the Dalai Lama please say something to heal the division and to practice what he preaches about religious tolerance, harmony and compassion in seeing every human being as the SAME - 2 eyes, a nose, a mouth, 2 ears and accept and love everyone as they are... Dorje Shugden people are human beings too Your Holiness. Please reunite us again, like how it was when everything was peaceful! We know CTA will do as you say, once Your Holiness decides.

[Drolma]

VERY GOOD QUESTIONS - This is what we Shugdenpas are all waiting to see... will there be true Buddhist practitioners to stand up, speak up and say something because this SPLIT has created so much disharmony, pain and suffering to so many. It is unDharmic and unBuddhist to behave in such a manner. May the Dalai Lama please say something to heal the division and to practice what he preaches about religious tolerance, harmony and compassion in seeing every human being as the SAME - 2 eyes, a nose, a mouth, 2 ears and accept and love everyone as they are... Dorje Shugden people are human beings too Your Holiness. Please reunite us again, like how it was when everything was peaceful! We know CTA will do as you say, once Your Holiness decides.

Not only we are all the same, whatever accusations the CTA or the Dalai Lama made on Dorje Shugden followers are proven to be not true. For example, the Dalai Lama said if we continue to do Dorje Shugden practice, his life will be shortened. But the current Dalai Lama is one of the longest living Dalai Lama. Very clearly, his life is not shortened.

The CTA has to face the truth and really look into their own problems. Their failure is due to their greed for money and power, not because someone sabotages them. If they continue to blame others for the failure, they will never be successful in any of their projects.

[Tenzin K]

Now that both Karmapa recognises the son of Karmapa Thaye Dorje to be the new incarnation of Sharmapa Rinpoche, the whole world will know who is the real Karmapa which is the father of the new Sharmapa Rinpoche, Karmapa Thaye Dorje. CTA must be furious for their Karmapa to make such recognition. What will the CTA do now?

Personally I rejoice to see the 2 Karmapas working together. I feel this is harmony, peace and a great example of the enlightened beings working together to bring spiritual benefits to many people. I just felt that both of them may be the emanations of the Karmapa. If not they must be highly attained to show us what they can do together to benefit people instead of pointing differences and drag down the dharma practice. This is really beautiful.

I see hope in Karma Kagyu lineage, the jointly written long life prayer for the Sharmapa by the two Karmapas shows that both of them want to unit Karma Kaguy lineage. They know if the two Karmapa dispute does not resolve, Karma Kagyu lineage will remain split which is not healthy at all.

When will the lamas of the anti-Shugden and pro-Shugden camp going to reconcile and work together in preserving the Gelug lineage? The two Karmapas are showing a very good example that unity and harmony are very important if we want things to move forward. We have to accept and respect differences. There are 84000 ways to practice in order to gain enlightenment, why must the CTA or Dalai Lama force their way on others?

You are right. If the two Karmapas can do it so to the Gelugs. It's just the matter of whether they want to look into the logic or fold their eyes to blindly follow what had been mentioned by the Tibetan leadership. Shugden people have been suffered from the ban and it weaken their entire Tibetan and as wel as the Gelug. Tibetan leadership does not care of all these as long as they gain personal benefit. The anti-Shugden people should really open their eyes and look into effect from the ban. What actually has been achieved from the ban and who actualy benefited from the ban?

Tibetan cannot keep folding their anymore because if they really want a government to look after them and speak for them than they must voice up. The current leadears may not fit but it doesn't mean the Tibetan cannot do anything. It's really up to them and now we can see how the 2 Karmapas able to work together instead of fighting together.

[Drolma]

Now that both Karmapa recognises the son of Karmapa Thaye Dorje to be the new incarnation of Sharmapa Rinpoche, the whole world will know who is the real Karmapa which is the father of the new Sharmapa Rinpoche, Karmapa Thaye Dorje. CTA must be furious for their Karmapa to make such recognition. What will the CTA do now?

Personally I rejoice to see the 2 Karmapas working together. I feel this is harmony, peace and a great example of the enlightened beings working together to bring spiritual benefits to many people. I just felt that both of them may be the emanations of the Karmapa. If not they must be highly attained to show us what they can do together to benefit people instead of pointing differences and drag down the dharma practice. This is really beautiful.

I see hope in Karma Kagyu lineage, the jointly written long life prayer for the Sharmapa by the two Karmapas shows that both of them want to unit Karma Kaguy lineage. They know if the two Karmapa dispute does not resolve, Karma Kagyu lineage will remain split which is not healthy at all.

When will the lamas of the anti-Shugden and pro-Shugden camp going to reconcile and work together in preserving the Gelug lineage? The two Karmapas are showing a very good example that unity and harmony are very important if we want things to move forward. We have to accept and respect differences. There are 84000 ways to practice in order to gain enlightenment, why must the CTA or Dalai Lama force their way on others?

You are right. If the two Karmapas can do it so to the Gelugs. It's just the matter of whether they want to look into the logic or fold their eyes to blindly follow what had been mentioned by the Tibetan leadership. Shugden people have been suffered from the ban and it weaken their entire Tibetan and as wel as the Gelug. Tibetan leadership does not care of all these as long as they gain personal benefit. The anti-Shugden people should really open their eyes and look into effect from the ban. What actually has been achieved from the ban and who actualy benefited from the ban?

Tibetan cannot keep folding their anymore because if they really want a government to look after them and speak for them than they must voice up. The current leadears may not fit but it doesn't mean the Tibetan cannot do anything. It's really up to them and now we can see how the 2 Karmapas able to work together instead of fighting together.

Seriously, it is time to move on, stop all the blames, grow up and take the responsibility! This is what the CTA should do, resolve the conflicts in the Tibetan community. They are not a big community in India, there are only 80,000 of them or maybe less, it is impossible conflicts cannot be resolved. It is really whether the CTA wants to do it or not. But it seems like they are busy disturbing China than doing something beneficial for the Tibetans. Whether they believe in karma, karma is going to come back on them.

[dsnowlion]

Well here is an interesting outcome and very much welcomed I believe. Well, I rejoice for them. Finally, they can reunite everyone. We are experiencing so much chaos as the world degenerates, it's time for true Dharma practice to flourish and let true leaders be leading examples beyond greed, bias, and the injustice of power-hungry leaders who only cares nothing but themselves. May the victory of the pure lineages prevails as the Buddhas intended.

Two Karmapas to Work Together in Search for Shamar Rinpoche Reincarnation

Ogyen Trinley Dorje and Trinley Thaye Dorjee, the two widely recognized claimants of the title of Karmapa, the most important reincarnation line in the Karma Kagyu lineage of Tibetan Buddhism, have announced plans to jointly identify the reincarnation of the 14th Sharmapa, Mipham Chokyi Lidro, who passed away in Germany on 11 June 2014. The announcement is aimed at helping to solidify the unity between the two leaders, who have been at the heart of a controversy concerning who is the rightful 17th Karmapa.

“It is extremely important that Shamar Rinpoche’s reincarnation be recognized without any mistake or confusion, without any “our side” or “their side.” Having a unanimous recognition is absolutely crucial for Buddhism in general and our lineage in particular, and with this in mind, Gyalwa Thaye Dorje and I intend to cooperate in the search and recognition,” Ogyen Trinley Dorjee said on Sunday at the 37th Kagyu Monlam in Bodh Gaya, India. (Phayul)

He continued: “I see the reincarnation of Shamar Rinpoche as a crucial point for bringing unity to the Kamtsang and am putting effort into it. If the reincarnation of Shamar Rinpoche is disputed, in the future all the Kamtsang high lamas will be disputed and the Kamtsang will be completely split. The attachment and hatred will be the same as in a feud that lasts for generations. If we fall under its power, all the majesty and power of over 900 years of history will be destroyed.” (Phayul)

Kamtsang refers to the lineage of the Karmapas and, by extension, their followers.

The announcement represents a further step to overcome the decades-long division within the Karma Kagyu lineage. The last move was in 2018, when the two Karmapas met for four days in rural France and issued a joint statement declaring a wish to develop a lasting personal connection to heal rifts within the community.*

Shamar Rinpoche, also known as the Shamarpa, is another influential lineage of reincarnated lamas in the Kagyu tradition, dating to Drakpa Senge (1283–1349), who was a student of the third Karmapa. Historically, the two lineages have held close ties and the Karmapas and Sharmapas have often acted as alternating teachers and disciples.

The Karmapa is the head of the Karma Kagyu subsect of the Kagyu lineage, one of the four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism. The other main schools are Gelug, Nyingma, and Sakya. The institution of the Karmapa is the oldest tulku lineage in Tibetan Buddhism, beginning with the first Gyalwa Karmapa, Düsum Khyenpa (1110–93). The lineage predates that of the the Dalai Lamas by more than two centuries. The majority of Tibetan Buddhists recognize Ogyen Trinley Dorje as the 17th Karmapa, while an influential minority recognizes Trinley Thaye Dorje.

Source: https://www.buddhistdoor.net/news/two-karmapas-to-work-together-in-search-for-shamar-rinpoche-reincarnation

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