Author Topic: Saddening news  (Read 18994 times)

thor

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Re: Saddening news
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2010, 12:42:28 AM »

Quote
Trijang Chocktrul Rinpoche gave a radio interview about Shugden in Dharamsala, India, stating...

    “I could not decide against him [the Dalai Lama] but nor could I stop propitiating Shugden with whom my relationship dates back to previous incarnations. I find myself in an immensely difficult situation. The followers of the Protector would not have listened to me...and no one seems to care about the difficulties I am facing...

    I also don't want the people of Chatreng, who have great expectations of me, to be disheartened. But if I continue to propitiate the Protector publicly, I would be compelled to become a sort of head of his worshippers, and this would be an offence to the Dalai Lama from whom I received my Bhikshu ordination, and has always treated me with extraordinary benevolence.

    I cannot even hope to keep a low profile as they [the Shugdenpas] would not let me.

    I have reason to believe that my return to India may possibly result in internal chaos, attempts on lives and other immoral activities bringing disgrace to His Holiness...

    I cannot sleep and I have had health problems. I am worried about thinking what will happen next. It is quite terrifying to think that I might be a cause of disgrace instead of serving the Tibetan people and His Holiness...

Trijang Rinpoche is not sufficiently established yet that's why he does not go openly rebel against Dalai Lama unlike Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. But his words don't ring false, he sounds like he sincerely doesnt want to disgrace His Holiness. People are pitting Trijang against Dalai Lama but in reality their relationship isnt like that at all.

ZP, I agree mostly with what you said in your earlier post but for those tulkus with a distinguished line of incarnations, they do not need to study or practice. Rather, they do that as a lesson to their students of the correct way of practising.

Take the example of Denma Gonsa Rinpoche, who has given a prophecy that his incarnation will recite the Guyasamaja root tantra from memory as a young child, and that child will be his unmistaken reincarnation. Once enthroned, the young rinpoche will then enter the monastery, study, practice, take initiations, retreats etc including guyasamaja (which he knows all too well) .... the usual path of a tulku. That's proof to me that high tulkus (i know you dislike that word 'high' but for want of a better word...) are merely manifesting human qualities. We consider them as Buddhas, omniscient, all-knowing, so why study unless its an example to the students? Look at how some young Rinpoches study in the monasteries - they just flip idly through the text and they know it all already.

Geronimo

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Re: Saddening news
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2010, 12:50:39 AM »
He disrobed! How much more distance could he hope to put between himself and DL?
He is an extremely warm and loving young man, of course he would not publically berate the Dalia more than he has done by shunning his former student,the Dalia Lama and sending his attendant to the Protests.

I believe he would send the same again to the Demonstrations we all should be wishing to happen again this Spring.Why stop on rumours what we know will prove useless, unless we keep up the heat?
Why would he change his course?
I see no reason to ease or otherwise ignore who these people really are.
Also, keep in mind the number of death threats the kasag was inciting all over the world.
They even poisoned Gonsar Rinpoche's Yak in a pen outside where young Trijang Rinpoche was living.
They stole the cornerstone of his Stupa in Austria.
 I could go on and on with the threats and black magic deeds this Dalia Lama invoked against the young Lamas.
 Oh yes! I could go on and on.
I remember who these CIA inspired people really are and what they threaten to do,
 I know quite well what they are capable of doing.
What a Bully the Dalia was to the young Tulkus, grasping for all the YOUNG Masters like a pedophile or tibetophile.
 Trying to rewrite the Lama Tree and take out his competition, as he nows fears the Chinese will do to him.
Must be quite a nightmare to be in his skin.
Imagining what will happen to himself.
 He knows what he did to others and he sees he has played it as a folly.
He must feel complettely helpless, knowing that no matter what?
His next incarnation will occur in China. His hangerson can play the War of the Roses.
 But in the end he can not compete with a Nation,
 let alone we Westeners and All Of Our Friends.
 The next Dalia Lama might ascend the throne next to this Panchen Lama and Dorje Shugden Will Be the Supreme Protector of the Dharma. Or maybe the Chinese will make it illegal for him to reincarnate as the Bolshiviks did to the Mongolian Bodg Khaan in 1927. I think not! He will help foment peace and unity with his presence for the People,not for him.
  He has no  choice and behaves now like a child and makes a fuss.
No longer will Tibetan Aristocrats embed their greed over the Mahayanna.
   Trijang Rinpoche prepares for reality, not some idea lost in a Medieval Theocracy, he is free from this Dalia Lama Serf Instution that enslaved millions must have been heart rendering to live through.

He is preparing for LAY TEACHERS!
What does this invoke for us?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 09:06:22 PM by Lhakpa Gyaltshen »

a friend

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Re: Saddening news
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2010, 02:00:38 AM »

I don´t think I understand what exactly is being discussed in this thread.
Our beloved Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has been threatened by the DL, as the DL himself states it (see TK´s posting of DL´s declarations), to do the floating balls divination to see if he is going to be allowed or not to practice the Protector.
I remember when Choktrul Rinpoche was barely 16 years old he went alone to face the DL while DL was in Europe and I was fearful that he might yield to the DL´s pressure, due to his youth. He just went and stated that he would never give up the Protector. Again he was threatened with the floating balls divination. But he never gave up, neither then when he was a young monk nor as a young adult lay person. The DL still never performed the divination and I bet that he will never do it because he knows that it´s useless.
I hope nobody here in this world thinks it´s bad that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has very good manners towards everybody, including the DL.
Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche continues with his life as a Teacher, if you want to see his situation just go to his center for the Summer retreats and teachings.
He is a very impressive Master, he is not at all a young inexperienced person. Just go and see for yourselves.
I looked in TBI´s website and there is a Vajrayogini initiation followed by a retreat on July 28th/August 14th, 2010. Some people here were expressing their wish to receive the initiation of our holy Venerable Mother Vajrayogini, I´m announcing this for them. (I´ve got nothing to do with our Trijang Rinpoche´s TBI, except being happy that he himself and the Institute exist).
I suggest that we pray for his long life and rejoice in his wise deeds.

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: Saddening news
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2010, 01:59:22 PM »
As a friend said, it is not very clear what is discussed in this thread. (Ah, the internet.)

I for my part were mainly making the point that if someone is a Tulku, it does not mean that the person is attained or a reliable source of wisdom. I was not speculating on the particulars of any Tulku, Trijang included. I meant to say that the fact that Trijang is a Tulku does not make him great, in any way. The greatness of a Tulku comes from his actions, not his prescribed status. If Trijang is great, it is because he does great, and not because somebody gave him a great title.

Maybe we should have a separate thread where we could discuss the "tulku-theory" in general. This might be useful, since many people do feel that by just merely someone being a Tulku grants the person automatically some high spiritual status. But, and here is the but... for instance the fisticuff-actor Steven Seagal is a Tulku, but would anyone take him as a wise authority on things Buddhist? So clearly there is a need for something more than just "a good seed from the previous plant". Good soil and good conditions do make a difference. This should always be remembered.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2010, 02:03:39 PM by Zhalmed Pawo »

honeydakini

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Re: Saddening news
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2010, 06:24:57 PM »
Hi Honey Dakini - just in case I created some confusion: It is not correct to say that Geshe Kelsang does not recognise Tulkus. In fact in his writings you can see he writes about many different re-incarnation lineages - for example that Geshe Langri Tangpa was a previous incarnation of Trijang Rinpoche, or Dorje Shugden was Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen or as TK wrote, in the recognition of his own mothers re-incarnation etc. However, the important point is that with respect to the NKT, the fact of being a Tulku is irrelevant to the process by which teachers and directors are appointed.

All the best to you

Robert :-)

Robert, thank you for the clarification and explanation. I understand what you are saying.

I also understand and appreciate that "process" of appointing teachers and I think that it is particularly relevant to a time when so many of the practices are getting dispersed or, especially in a western world, people do get quite easily carried away with spiritual fads, trends and a mysticism that can be dangerous (this whole thing being quite a big tendency in the 60s/70s right through until today, to some extent).

I value and respect very much the tibetan system of recognition of tulkus and reincarnated high lamas - they have very advanced systems, divination and highly clairvoyant masters for doing so. It is a much different context "out" in the rest of "our world" though as that whole practice and process is one that was quite alien to us up until only quite recently. I respect teachers like Geshe Kelsang Gyatso for establishing a system that has a great emphasis on study, practice and becoming a teacher by a very organised and graduated process of learning.

It's very much like the gelugpa system itself, isn't it! It would be very helpful for when he passes away, or in the interrim before his incarnation comes back - for the next generation of students, or even laypeople, to keep the organisation going without having to rely on practices/lineages of an old tibet that we may be neither familiar with nor qualified to work with in the same way as these lamas have been doing for hundreds of years.

I like that it is also a very democratic system - anyone from the king to the village idiot has the opportunity and potential to become a teacher by following the same process of study and practice. a wonderful way for making the dharma accessible and relevant to everyone, and giving anyone an opportunity to connect and learn, according to their own levels. It brings the focus away from mysticism or even from the concept of reincarnation which many people may still be grappling with (having come from cultures that don't believe in it or from scientific viewpoints in which feel they "need proof in a testtube"). Instead, it places the focus on what can be achieved NOW, within this lifetime, today, this hour, this minute. It challenges the practitioner to realise that while the system of recognising and even being a tulku may be important, what is more important is what you are doing RIGHT NOW. People may or may not believe in past lives and the tulku system (and there isn't anything bad about them if they DON'T believe in it either), but everyone can believe in what you are doing right now to make a difference.

Perhaps this is how NKT has grown so exponentially in the last few decades - it appeals very much to a modern sensibility, knowledge and thirst for learning. Then, when knowledge is gained, faith in a teacher is sown and merit is accumulated to understand the deeper teachings, other more "mystical" elements such as understanding the tulku system, divinations etc combines with what they have already learnt to make a very powerful practice.

Lee Dhi

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Re: Saddening news
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2010, 11:31:30 AM »
Fist of all, thanks very much for the thoughtful postings to ensure that this news is clear. I learnt a lot from this discussion and will probably have to return as there is so much interesting information and valuable sharing of thoughts.

It is very sad to see high Lamas go through the motion of politics and samsara drama. However, I try to analyze and understand the possible reasons for this situation to exist. Some of the reasons I came up with include: Perhaps this will have to be the "strategy" of doing things until these great Dharma Gurus overcome the problems that is overflowing from the secular world into the spiritual world. The mixing of politics and spirituality was never a good idea, results show from the time of the 5th Dalai Lama until the 14th Dalai Lama. However, the mix has happened and it looks like this mix will only continue as talk begin on Dalai Lama's "replacement" (YouTube video: After the Dalai Lama - India). So, instead of resisting this reality, one must adapt and work with it to achieve the final desired outcome.

Therefore, it is less disheartening to receive such news because it is all a part of a bigger scheme to 1) maintain the principal of harmony (i.e. not to offend the leader of Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism) within the Dharma community while 2) continue the efforts to set momentum for DS to flourish when the time comes. I have complete faith that ALL our highly attained Lamas have the wisdom, compassion and selflessness to act for the benefit of EVERY sentient being.

I pray that: May all the suffering end and may pure Buddhadharma flourish through sincere efforts as put forth by all of you in these forums.

harrynephew

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Re: Saddening news
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2010, 12:43:20 PM »
Thank you everyone for posting your thoughts about this issue.

Initially when I posted this here I intended to seek comments on two points:

1. Does GKG deny the Tulku recognitions system

and the more concerned question is

2. why is the Tibetan govt. still making nasty plots on holy beings such as HH Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche?

Throughout history we've heard and read many cases of Lamas and other Tibetan officials being put down due to the fight of power etc. I still can't believe this is still happening in the 21st century! And for Trijang Rinpoche to have heard it with his own ears would mean so much and intense heart shattering because he has so much faith in HHDL and there we have someone from his cabinet plotting murder of his current changzo!

When will this viciousness ever stop?!!!

or is there never an end to people's ignorrance for Enlightened beings whom have taken an extra effort to reincarnate amongst us in order to benefit us better?

I pray that in all dangers surrounding holy masters like HH Trijang Rinpoche will cease and only auspiciousness blossom around him.

Harry Nephew

Love Shugden, Love all Lamas, Heal the World!

DSFriend

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Re: Saddening news
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2010, 07:27:03 PM »
Thank you everyone for posting your comments and sharing your views. There are so many people in here like TK, Robert Thomas, Lhakpa Gyaltshen (and many others) who has so much experience and knowledge that it really makes this forum a jewel of learning.

I must say my mind is more at rest after reading all your postings.

There has been campaigns for and against Dorje Shugden from around the world. It is interesting to see that Trijang Rinpoche opt to follow the middle way instead, to the point of choosing to disrobe and leave his ladrang. Also, I thought Trijang Rinpoche's concern to not be against Dalai Lama is very similar to the stance this website is about.

WisdomBeing

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Re: Saddening news
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2010, 04:55:34 PM »


I remember when Choktrul Rinpoche was barely 16 years old he went alone to face the DL while DL was in Europe and I was fearful that he might yield to the DL´s pressure, due to his youth. He just went and stated that he would never give up the Protector. Again he was threatened with the floating balls divination. But he never gave up, neither then when he was a young monk nor as a young adult lay person. The DL still never performed the divination and I bet that he will never do it because he knows that it´s useless.
I hope nobody here in this world thinks it´s bad that Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche has very good manners towards everybody, including the DL.
Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche continues with his life as a Teacher, if you want to see his situation just go to his center for the Summer retreats and teachings.
He is a very impressive Master, he is not at all a young inexperienced person. Just go and see for yourselves.

I suggest that we pray for his long life and rejoice in his wise deeds.


I heartily agree with you there. I strongly believe that these 'young' Masters like HH Trijang Rinpoche and HH Zong Rinpoche will join the next wave of Masters. There are also already many great Masters in their 40s and 50s throughout the world who will take over and lead once the old guard (sorry to say) passes away.

Everything is impermanent. The TGIE is in its sunset stage now. A new dawn will come soon and young, radiant and dynamic Lamas will emerge to bring Dharma to the world, heralded by Dorje Shugden. Let's just watch.

Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

honeydakini

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Re: Saddening news
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2010, 11:12:36 PM »
It is interesting to see that Trijang Rinpoche opt to follow the middle way instead, to the point of choosing to disrobe and leave his ladrang. Also, I thought Trijang Rinpoche's concern to not be against Dalai Lama is very similar to the stance this website is about.


I agree with you - I do find this interesting that in the light of all the controversy and difficult and probably being harangued for upholding the DS practice, Trijang Rinpoche maintains a very respectful stance towards the Dalai Lama. He is after all, based in America quite comfortably - his family included - and has his own students, centres etc so would not need to be dependent on the TGIE. But there is still mutual respect.

Interesting isn't it that Trijang Rinpoche (representing the "DS camp") shows himself to be very respectful and engages quietly in his practice without offending others, while the pro-Dalai Lama-ites show themselves to be so much more aggressive and uncompromising in their stance? To me, it shows very clearly the true, kind essence of Dorje Shugden and who he really is, as represented by Trijang Rinpoche's own actions.