Kopan Monks Divided

[Lee Dhi]

This is the first time I am learning in detail about Lama Zopa’s decision for FPMT to stop the practice of Dorje Shugden. So, once again, thanks for sharing your very sound points of views!

After reading the postings, I just thought of the “story” of H.H Gaden Trisur Rinpoche who previously denounced Dorje Shugden and recently defected from Ganden Shartse Monastery to Shar Ganden Monastery, where Dorje Shugden is practiced openly.

In a video on YouTube (Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden Part 1, 2 and 3), one of the harshest suffering Dharma practitioners has to confront was in the choice between Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama. Perhaps, to reduce the pain for their students when making THE choice, both Lama Zopa and H.H Trisur Rinpoche took the lead in making the decision to (TEMPORARILY) stop their practice of Dorje Shugden.

As they are both attained, they may be able to see the bigger picture: when the time is right, they will be able to embrace their Protector again. H.H Trisur Rinpoche’s time came when his term as Gaden Tripa ended. Maybe Lama Zopa’s will come when the Dalai Lama passes away (with due respect). 

Some other possible reasons I thought of to support the “temporary” choice are:

1)   As Dorje Shugden is a Buddha who exists for the benefit of all sentient beings. So, if the long-term decision to stop DS practice could be of greater benefit, DS will accept. Based on result, the ban of DS has caused great awareness and embracement of his practice ?
2)   Dalai Lama is the official representative of Buddhadharma in the international, worldly arena. Therefore, it was necessary that his position be guarded as he makes controversial decision in his strategy to spread of the Dharma for the benefit of all sentient beings. * Reasons for Dalai Lama to ban DS is ingeniously presented in TK’s posting WHY DORJE SHUGDEN HAS TO BE THE BAD GUY.

My thoughts above do not represent that I condone to the split among the Kopan monks. My thoughts above stem from my hope and faith that maybe Lama Zopa together with many other high Lamas are all waiting for the time when Dorje Shugden returns to mainstream Dharma practice and they can, once again, openly worship him with great reverence!

[a friend]

Dear Lee Dhi,

I suggest that you read all the posts where Beggar, TK´s and the Noobs' position maintaining that there is some type of divine higher purpose for the sacrilege of the ban is refuted.
It has been refuted, please read the posts. TK is not going to be offended, he is happy just to read what we have to say. So I'm going to state it again, that view about a higher purpose for the ban is a wrong view.

It´s a wrong view because it attacks, undermines, the Buddha´s basic action. The basic enlightened deed of a Buddha, any Buddha, is to teach what we have to keep and what we have to abandon. To maintain that something so wrong as the ban, so wrong as the way the person who dictated it treated his own Lama has a higher purpose is to maintain that Buddhas can teach what is wrong, that Buddhas can teach what produces suffering, which is a horrendous thing to say about a Buddha.

I understand the need for clinging to such view. One of the reasons for doing that is the Dalai Lama's status as the icon of the Tibetan nation (not the official representative of Buddhadharma in the world, thank heavens he is not that, not at all) and because of his role as their leader Tibetans need to defend his image in their own hearts.

Just ponder what it would entail that Buddhas acted creating such confusion, giving such bad advice and such bad example, there would not be a path for us to get out of samsara, no path at all. Our Buddhas, when they showed themselves as Buddhas, never ever acted like that. Lord Shakyamuni didn´t act like that, Lord Atisha didn´t act like that, Lord Tsongkhapa didn´t act like that. That´s enough for us to know.

[LosangKhyentse]

Dear A Friend,

You are absolutely right, I am very happy to read everyone's thoughts, views, and ideas. It does not matter if they are different than mine. Because everyone has intelligence and they have to eventually figure things out for themselves, but before that happens, we have to rely on the kindness of everyone's input and listen carefully. We must listen to everyone's input with deep respect whether it matches our own views or not. I do not get offended if others say my view is wrong. Because sometimes it could be. And that is fine.

I love the sharing on this forum. It will be sad in one way when Ds's ban is lifted and we don't need this forum anymore. It will be like close dharma ppl parting. But perhaps we can all meet in person that time. Or this forum evolves into more and then when we look at the older threads, it will awaken many emotions and thoughts. I look forward to that.


Tk

[Geronimo]

We can celebrate the Resolution of this Unprecedented Schism by creating a Festival. A festival where all can come together in the Mountains and watch the Performance of the Dance of a Thousand Dieties. It's been a hundred years since this has taken place.
What do you think of that?
I hope TK is right and Rainbows and Water Falls feed the New Spring Of Buddhism.
I for one can more easily see Je T'Songkhapa and His Sons sitting on their dais radiating colorful array of lights that bring a brillance to the Dharma Protector Shri Dorje Shugden and Her Majesty Vajrayoginni at the threshold of my mind's gate.
The Teachings clarify and mystify,keeping it simple and recite the prayers will bring all of us closer.
 Maybe this forum will change before long. Then we can as other suggest focus entirely our energies and love into practicing the dharma and see what this brings. One thing is for certain, this schism has brought the cream to the top with all the Practioners really having their mettle tested through the Rings Of Fire has created a whole new generation of DEDICATED PRACTIONERS. Willing to lie down their lives to Protect the Lineage of Our Masters. Understanding what true freedom is really made, the dharma, the foundation the core to make us rise above our lesser selves and we aspire to magnificence.
No slackers here. No we have a core that has spread around the world and even brought the Protection of Lord Shugden to the Chinese nation.
We are on a roll and soon we will hear from the Courts in New Delhi.
One way or another, we have already won.
We are just getting started.

"It does not matter if they are different than mine. Because everyone has intelligence and they have to eventually figure things out for themselves, but before that happens, we have to rely on the kindness of everyone's input and listen carefully. We must listen to everyone's input with deep respect whether it matches our own views or not. I do not get offended if others say my view is wrong. Because sometimes it could be. And that is fine."
tk is so cool! I always love what tk says in equaniminous ways.

WSS spearheads the way to Stand for All of Our Freedoms.

[Lineageholder]

It looks like www.lamayeshe.com (created by FPMT) has anti-Shugden material.

Their website has changed a lot.  Under 'teachings' --> 'Lineage lamas' there used to be a lot of picture of lineages Gurus including Trijang Rinpoche and Je Pabongkhapa, but now it's a list of articles, the latter ones being gushing fanboy expositions of how wonderful the Dalai Lama is, urgh, it makes me want to vomit!

It's shameful that in the list of 'teachers' the Dalai Lama comes first, then Lama Yeshe.  No wonder Lama Osel, if he is the genuine tulku of Lama Yeshe wants nothing to do with them - they've become a political tradition of Buddhism.  If he's in a pure land somewhere, no doubt he is sadly shaking his head and wondering how all his hard work of bringing Je Tsongkhapa's tradition to Westerners has turned into this travesty of mixing religion and politics.

I believe this question is also asked with a dubious intention:

7. I have been practicing within another school of Buddhism for about a year, but when I first got into Tibetan Buddhism, I spontaneously put up pictures of Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa Rinpoche and put offerings before them. My question is that I don’t want to break any vows by studying with a teacher other than my root guru, which I am seriously contemplating as I FEEL that your lineage is the one.

In other words, 'how can I abandon my root Guru without creating negative karma and go onto your side, guys?'

I wonder why this question is asked and replied to?....hmmmmm    and people criticise the NKT for their missionary zeal!

[wang]

Wouldn't it go too extreme?

As you quoted, it start with 'I have been practicing within another school of Buddhism for about a year,...', how many guys not start with approaching multi-lineage at the very beginning?  In Greater China where you can find all tradition's master, it looks be quite common(rather stick with one master and one lineage since day one is un-usual)...

[Lee Dhi]

Dear A Friend,

Thank you for your respond and suggestion to read other posts. I have actually read some of them together with the respective rebuttals. After taking into consideration the different arguments and points of views, which are all sound and shared with sincerity, I still see the great possibility and have faith in this divine higher purpose.

Although I do agree with you that the act, which caused confusion, is not the path out of samsara. I believe the more important factor to consider is the motivation behind the act. Sometimes, the methods chosen may not completely or immediately cause the intended consequence. As to what H.H's true motivation is, no sentient being can determine with complete certainty. Only the final result can act as some sort of indication. With this, I refer to Lhakpa Gyaltshen's comment that the confusion and controversy has created a "whole new generation of dedicated practitioners" and caused Dorje Shugden worship to flourish in China. Although this consequence is imperfect (as there is still suffering experienced by some), it is pretty beneficial to the purpose of turning the wheel of Dharma.

With this said, I agree and am happy to accept your suggestion to continue reading with an open mind and develop a more rounded view point about Dharma and our Protector -  Dorje Shugden.

I thank you again for giving me another angle of contemplation. This is the greatness of this powerful forum! I do not think that the purpose of this forum will end as there is always value to be created by a medium that brings so much far-reaching benefit to so many people.


 

[a friend]

Dear Lee Dhi,

How about taking into consideration what the Dalai Lama said?
To proclaim a higher purpose is not only a type of terrible disrespect towards the Buddhas,
it´s also a total lack of respect for the Dalai Lama as a person.
Do you understand the difference between interpretive and definitive? This is a very important distinction.
The Dalai Lama stopped short those who wanted to find purposes to his actions about the Protector, and said that what he was doing was definitive, not interpretive.
He himself barred the way for you or anybody else to try to interpret what he did in a different way.
A "definitive meaning" means that the meaning matches exactly what is being said.
So if he himself precludes an interpretive meaning, why insist on disrespecting the Buddhas and disrespecting the Dalai Lama with rosy interpretations?
Sorry, my "why" was just rethorical. I know the various answers to my "why" ... from patriotic hope to feelgood, and so on and so forth ...

 

[thor]

The Dalai Lama is his Root Guru now, what can you do?

What do you mean Dalai Lama is his root Guru now? Isnt Lama Yeshe his root Guru? [sorry for the ignorance btw]

[WisdomBeing]

one of the harshest suffering Dharma practitioners has to confront was in the choice between Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama.

Sorry to have to say this, but for many the choice is not between Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama, it is between Dorje Shugden and their meal ticket (Dalai Lama).  That is the reality.

For the sake of sponsorship, some DS practitioners will do the unthinkable and denounce their own practice given by their Gurus. However, looking at Serpom and Shar Gaden, it doesn't look like there is a lack of sponsorship for those who wish to openly practice Shugden.

Some lamas in the monastery may not abandon their practice but do it privately although it is common knowledge that they are still maintaining their practice. While some criticise them for pretending to abide by the ban for the sake of not losing sponsorship or support, i have heard that some of these lamas are advised by Dorje Shugden NOT to be open with their practice when they would have happily gone to Shar Gaden or Serpom. So i think that it would be wisest for us, who do not know people's motive, to not judge them in case we judge wrongly (which is highly likely!)

[Geronimo]

In Praise Of The Incomparable Tsongkhapa
By Gyalwa Mikyo Dorje, the Eighth Karmapa (1507 – 1554

Once when Gyalwa Mikyo Dorje was travelling through the Charida Pass, thoughts of the incomparable Tsongkhapa welled up within him. Overcome by profound faith, he was moved to compose this poem.



At a time when nearly all in this Northern Land
Were living in utter contradiction to Dharma,
Without illusion, O Tsongkhapa, you polished the teachings.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



When the teachings of the Sakya, Kargu, Kadam
And Nyingma sects in Tibet were declining,
You, O Tsongkhapa, revived Buddha's Doctrine,
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Manjushri, the Bodhisattva of Wisdom, gave to you
Special instructions on the thought of Nagarjuna.
O Tsongkhapa, upholder of the Middle Way,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



"Mind and form are not empty of their own natures
But are empty of truly existent mind and form",
You, O Tsongkhapa, are Tibet's chief exponent of voidness,
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



In merely a few years you filled
The land from China to India
With peerless holders of the saffron robes.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Those who become your followers
And look to you and your teachings
Are never again disappointed or forsaken.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



The trainees who walk in your footsteps
Breath the fresh air of the Great Way.
They would die for the good of the world.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Anyone who disparages your doctrine must face
The terrible wrath of the Dharma protectors.
O Tsongkhapa, who abides in truth's power,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



In person and in dreams you come to those
Who but once recollect your image.
O Tsongkhapa, who watches with compassionate eyes.
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



In order to civilize men and spirits you spread
Your teachings through Kham, Mongolia and Turkestan:
O Tsongkhapa, subduer of savages,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



For men coarse and far from the Way, you dispel
Mental clouds, evils and bad karma.
O Tsongkhapa, who bestows quick progress,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Those who take heartfelt Refuge in you,
Even those with no hope for now or hereafter,
O Tsongkhapa, have their every wish fulfilled.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Having exposed false teachings transgressing
The excellent ways well shown by Buddha,
You firmly established your Bold Doctrine.
Hence I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



Manifesting sublime austerity and discipline,
The form and fragrance of your life was incomparable.
O Tsongkhapa, controlled one pleasing to the Buddhas,
I sing this praise to you of Ganden Mountain.



By the strength of the sons of your lineage
And by my having faithfully offered this praise,
May the enlightened activity of Buddha Shakyamuni
Pervade the earth for ages to come.[/b]

[Big Uncle]

This Kopan Incidence reminds me of the Wheel of Sharp Weapons. I quote the two stanzas here for everybody's perusal that i feel is related to it:-

(21) When our minds are disturbed and we feel great frustration
That things never happen the may that we wish,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now we have caused interfering disturbance
When others were focused on virtuous acts;
Hereafter let's stop causing such interruption.

(22) When nothing we do ever pleases our Gurus,
This is the wheel of sharp weapons returning
Full circle upon us from wrongs we have done.
Till now with our Gurus we have feigned pious manners,
But out of their presence have reverted to sin.
Hereafter let's try to be less hypocritical
And take all the teachings sincerely to heart.

[honeydakini]

one of the harshest suffering Dharma practitioners has to confront was in the choice between Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama.

Sorry to have to say this, but for many the choice is not between Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama, it is between Dorje Shugden and their meal ticket (Dalai Lama).  That is the reality.

For the sake of sponsorship, some DS practitioners will do the unthinkable and denounce their own practice given by their Gurus. However, looking at Serpom and Shar Gaden, it doesn't look like there is a lack of sponsorship for those who wish to openly practice Shugden.

Some lamas in the monastery may not abandon their practice but do it privately although it is common knowledge that they are still maintaining their practice. While some criticise them for pretending to abide by the ban for the sake of not losing sponsorship or support, i have heard that some of these lamas are advised by Dorje Shugden NOT to be open with their practice when they would have happily gone to Shar Gaden or Serpom. So i think that it would be wisest for us, who do not know people's motive, to not judge them in case we judge wrongly (which is highly likely!)

Wow. that's a strong statement re: the meal ticket.

I have to agree with wisdombeing however. I'm sure, more than anything, you would acknowledge that the  struggle arises because there is a deeply ingrained issue of samaya for many practitioners - between themselves and both Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama. I think just because someone stands up for the dalai lama or doesn't speak out against him it doesn't mean it's because he's 1) political motivated 2) bribed 3) relying on Dalai Lama for money / resources/ fame / good reputation etc

There are many out there who are torn because within them, they cannot think of either Dorje Shugden nor the dalai lama as wrong or bad. For many, the whole basis of their faith and belief in goodness rests simultaneously both in Dorje Shugden and in Dalai Lama as their Guru. So how do you pick? It is a difficult option because literally, it is making you choose between what has now been newly defined for you as "good" and "evil" and forcing you to betray one side or the other. It's like trying to choose between which parent you'd rather follow? abandon your mother or your child?

Then there is the third level - where one lama asks you to practice, and another (dalai lama) tells you not to - so now you have to pick: Lama #1 or Lama #2. Either way you're breaking your samaya, made to feel like you're betraying one side and losing something so precious to you all your life.

Far more than a meal ticket.

[DSFriend]

Following on what TK has presented, logically if a students drop their practice for the reasons stated (due to another famous lama or their own lama passing away) there will no longer be any lineage holders to pass on these sacred practices. The more I think about it, the more alarming it becomes in my mind.

[DSFriend]

I love the sharing on this forum. It will be sad in one way when Ds's ban is lifted and we don't need this forum anymore. It will be like close dharma ppl parting. But perhaps we can all meet in person that time. Or this forum evolves into more and then when we look at the older threads, it will awaken many emotions and thoughts. I look forward to that.

Tk

This website and forum have been an oasis to draw strength from, an incredible source of knowledge and a platform to improve analytical and debate skills. Thank you TK, Lhakpa Gyaltshen, Thom, Trinley Kalsang and all the newly joined friends...your open and sincere sharing has made a huge difference in my mind.