Dorje Shugden vs Dalai Lama or Dorje Shugden AND Dalai Lama? A new choice

[Lee Dhi]

The ban on Dorje Shugden practice has caused a lot of suffering. There are two core opposing views:

1)   The anti-Shugden camp states that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit who will cause harm to H.H Dalai Lama and the freedom of Tibet. Therefore, they stand for the cause to ban his worship.
2)   The anti-Dalai Lama camp claims that H.H is a Political Leader who is using the spiritual veil to destroy religious freedom. So, they stand for the cause to promote religious freedom with  specific focus on Buddha Dorje Shugden practice.

Since implementing the DS ban, both parties presented many arguments, used many tools of communication, and gotten many individuals involved. Despite these various elements, there is one common outcome: suffering resulting from fear, hatred and anger.

Suffering is experienced by both parties.

1)   Dorje Shugden practitioners are ostracized and denied fair treatment within their own society. Their suffering is evident in videos where DS practitioners are not welcomed at shops, medical centers and even monasteries.
2)   Dalai Lama and his representative continuously face criticism, scrutiny and sometimes risk to their safety.

One can say to the other: They asked for it! They deserve it! The truth is, both are "right" because we are in samsara, we all suffer one way or another.

I do not say this cynically. On the contrary, I say this with acceptance that it is the truth AND belief that there is a remedy: Dharma. It is for this remedy that we are participating in this forum.

In a Dharma teaching that I was very fortunate to hear, the subject on projection struck me in relation to the Dorje Shugden vs Dalai Lama controversy. The suffering and pain described above is the current reality that is projected as a result of decisions and actions taken in the past. If we continue to reinforce this projection by acting with fear and anger NOW, we will create the same suffering in the future. However, if we make the choice to free ourselves from the projection that the Dalai Lama is spiritual/political or that Dorje Shugden is good/evil, we may start the cause for a different outcome.

Instead of being “anti” anything, we should focus on being “PRO” something. Instead of our projection of Dorje Shugden vs Dalai Lama, project Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama. Consider this path not because of Dalai Lama or Dorje Shugden or anyone else. Consider this for your Dharma growth so that you can benefit all sentient beings.

I know it is easier said than done and I never experienced the discrimination, which gives me no right to speak so loosely etc. However, maybe it is this freedom from negative past experience related to the DS ban that will take us from the past and set us for the future. With this, I humbly ask for your contemplation.

[Middleway]

Yup, I've never felt 'anti DL', just 'anti ban'. The DL enforced the ban, so we asked him to stop, when he didn't, we took more forceful action. Any perceived anger, certainly where I'm concerned & I think for most of the people I know personally who take this stance, is coming from your mind. I can't imagine anyone more worthy of compassion than the DL - who in the world is creating karma as bad as that poor man?

[Geronimo]

Fearlessness 


In this region, wealth, face and family lineage have FAR MORE IMPORTANCE than belief in karma, next life and Bodhi mind. Problems arise from basically these 3 factors.

However, when we look at these from the widest scope of ultimate mind view, it pales so insignificantly because our lives are so short. Hence we trap ourselves, again and again. And time passes by quickly...

Isn't it tiresome when people always focus ON WHAT THEY DID? And that they hardly focus on WHAT OTHERS HAVE DONE?

When something goes WRONG, then they REPEAT OVER & OVER & OVER what they did & what difficulties they had in order to COVER. But they never think about HOW THEY DAMAGE OTHERS.

That's the problem, they never start focusing out.

It's good for people like that to write and read WHAT OTHERS HAVE DONE FOR THEM DAILY. To stop repeating and move on.

If you want to get places, you have to have FEARLESSNESS. What's fearlessness? Better to GO ALL THE WAY even if we might FAIL. It's better than DOING NOTHING and JUST FAILING. Because when you do nothing, you have to play so many games to hide your failure.

I hate it when we just do nothing and be comfortable with failure... because you hate yourself in the end for doing NOTHING AND THAT'S WHY YOU FAILED. You carry that your whole life.

Covering failure is the MAIN SOURCE FOR OUR EGO TO STAY STRONG. If we go all the way, the chance to win IS THERE!

Think! Failure from doing nothing or a chance to make it. Ego protection or ego diminishing. Pick...

 Much care,
Tsem Tulku Rinpoche
August 23, 2009

 

[Big Uncle]

I find the subject quite intriguing because most people out there including those within this forum and other websites seemed bent  on Dorje Shugden vs Dalai Lama while very few websites out there talk about Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama. This is one of the reason why I, like so many people out there gravitate to this website because of firstly, its amazing coverage on this controversy and secondly, its stand as Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama stand. I am very happy and glad to discover that there are people out there who believe in this stand. 

[Lee Dhi]

Dear TrinleyKalsang and Middleway, thank you for sharing your thoughts. They are very profound and I begin to understand the skillful means which is being used to defend pure Buddhadharma practice and Dorje Shugden worship.

I hope that more people will get to read comments and posts like your on the intention behind the strategy of opposing the Dalai Lama because many individuals, who do not seem possess the wisdom and karma to see this big picture, misinterpret the opposition as reflected in postings in various forums and YouTubes. The danger and risk I see in this situation is: the individuals who ARE (mistakenly) angry and direct vulgarity towards Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are collecting a lot of negative karma! Unless these vulgar and aggressive postings are a part of the strategy (above), this situation is frightening and frightening.

Perhaps a simpler angle that can only cause a win:win consequence is more suitable when communicating with a big group of individuals who are spread out across the globe...leaving minimum room for misunderstanding and misinterpretation.

Nevertheless, I thank you again for opening my mind to a new learning and sharing the depth of the opposition being implemented. It has certainly brought great awareness towards the ban on Dorje Shugden, which was very necessary in the past years.

[Geronimo]

"The danger and risk I see in this situation is: the individuals who ARE (mistakenly) angry and direct vulgarity towards Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden are collecting a lot of negative karma! Unless these vulgar and aggressive postings are a part of the strategy (above), this situation is frightening and frightening."

Of course, we must remain in character, until the last act. Otherwise, we would spoil the story by racing to the end of this drama on the stage of samsara.

Thank you tk, all for the Incredible Stories of the History.
Truly verwhelming!

[Geronimo]

One reason the TGIE is going nowhere is due to unrealistic projections.

What kind of idiotic suggestion is it that would attempt to make Tibet a Park?

Here in America, we have what are called National Parks to enjoy nature and wildlife.

Or is it that Bob consider the Tibetans as wildlife as the Tibetan Lama considered the People Serf and Chattel.
What would he expect everyone to do to make a living?
Maybe I should get them Smokey the Bear Ranger hats?
Beside this is the same hype I got back in 1977 to preserve the Tibetan Culture from the Chinese in Indiana for the Tibetan Cultural Center. Tibetan Culture is Splendid in the hands of actual Tibetans and Chinese with what, who? Oh the Panchen Lama! I sure he will take care of things just fine DL. Better than you did. At least he stayed in his country and now look, he is head of Mahayanna Buddhism in Tibetan China. Look at the history. All of this has happened before with the Dalia Lama being used as a pair of dice by the powerful,whether they be Tibetans or Chinese. Someone is always pulling the Dalia Lama's strings.

"Tibet as an international environmental park suggested
(TibetanReview.net, Mar19, 2010) “

Tibet should be handed back to its people because they will know how to conserve their land and the environment,” said American scholar on Tibetan studies Prof Robert Thurman Mar 16 evening, speaking in New Delhi. He further said, “'Tibet should be made into something like an international environmental park. Many rivers in Asia originate in the Tibetan plateau and support hundreds of millions of people downstream, but its environment is now becoming very fragile thanks to major deforestation.”

Thurman, a former Tibetan Buddhist monk who has authored, edited and translated several books on Tibetan Buddhism, is the professor of Indo-Tibetan studies at Columbia University, New York. He spoke on the topic “'Why Tibet Matters” at the India Habitat Centre.

He further said: “There is a lot of mismanagement in Tibet – mass scale deforestation and desertification of grasslands – by China. It should be conserved and eco-tourism should be given a boost. The world will then see Tibet as the Switzerland of Asia and give a boost to the economy as well.”

He said Tibet was uniquely suited historically, culturally and environmentally to fulfil his suggestion. The Tibetan people's traditional respect for all forms of life, which prohibits the harming of all sentient beings, would enable them to serve the conservation of natural environment, he added.

He also said Tibet needed to be protected as a unique civilization. Tibet contains the “elixir of Indo-Buddhist philosophical traditions” that dates back thousands of years to Nalanda, the world's oldest university, and its culture needs preservation if the repository of that priceless wisdom is not to be lost forever, he added.

[Lineageholder]

I am not anti-Dalai Lama because he's my mother - I'm anti the great deception he's pulling in terms of presenting as a Buddhist holy being while acting against Buddhism by persecuting those who do not agree with him.

Sooner or later, people will realize that his words and actions do not match.  Living beings will suffer because they may lose faith in Buddhism, believing it to be a hypocritical religion when, of course, this division is nothing to do with religion.

[Middleway]

Dear Lee Dhi, thank you for the opportunity to check my motivation. It is easy to slip into negativity without realising when engaging in strong actions, I pray my Protector will give me a kick if I stray!

[Midakpa]

Those who disparage H.H. the Dalai Lama or our Lord Dorje Shugden probably do not believe in karma or future lives.

Thank you, Lee Dhi, for the clear presentation of the situation. The proposal of a Shugden AND Dalai Lama stand is new but it is positive and in line with the prophecy from our lineage guru Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche who in the late 1970s said that "in the future, it may look like Dalai Lama is at odds with Dorje Shugden, but in actuality they are helping each other to make Buddha Dharma grow in the world." (quote from TK's post re Tsangpa Oracle Prophecies). From my observation, there are also other participants in this forum who subscribe to this view.

You have infused Dharma in your arguments which is the correct thing to do since we are Buddhists. Sometimes we tend to forget the teachings and as a result of our suffering, especially in the case of those of us who have been victims of the ban, we react in anger and act out of a desire for revenge. In fact this is a great opportunity to practise patience and develop equanimity.

I'd like to quote a few salient points from an early post by TK regarding the ban. I hope it will help some of you out there who are still confused about who is right and who is wrong:

(1) Whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance in any of the oracles, he never criticizes the Dalai Lama and in fact tells the audience to always withhold criticism towards Dalai Lama.
(2) Why would Dalai Lama act, talk and promote so many contradictory actions that make himself look   unstable. Unless it was on purpose. I believe that truly. He is not stupid.

I quote from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche:

"... But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

[Geronimo]

Dear Mikadapa,
Please tell how you know that what you say is always true.
I think it is like a Lama might say one thing to you and another to me, due to whatever circumstances are applicable. Maybe, I do not know what the Oracle say all the time?

"(1) Whenever Dorje Shugden takes trance in any of the oracles, he never criticizes the Dalai Lama and in fact tells the audience to always withhold criticism towards Dalai Lama."

[Middleway]

Those who disparage H.H. the Dalai Lama or our Lord Dorje Shugden probably do not believe in karma or future lives

like the negative karma you create by breaking your bodhisattva vows by not engaging in wrathful actions when appropriate?  When thinking about negative karma we principally have to look at our intention. I agree that this is crucial. What specific actions are you talking about when you mention 'disparaging the Dalai Lama'? & what exactly are you imputing on those actions? Also, do you also include the DL when you say 'those who disparage... probably do not believe in karma or future lives?

[Lee Dhi]

Dear Middleway, thank you for receiving my message as an opportunity to check in on your motivation and for your strong commitment to having Dorje Shugden's worship and practice prevail and flourish. With your sincere intentions, I am certain our compassionate protector will always be with you and give you a kick anytime you require

[Lee Dhi]

Dear Midakpa, thank you for your contribution that adds much value to this discussion. I love the quote you took from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche! I saw some videos of Trijang Rinpoche and it simply goes to the heart: immediate experience of his compassion and wisdom.

It is encouraging that there is some level of acceptance to this new stand of Dorje Shugden AND Dalai Lama. As time goes by, situations and conditions change, which is aligned to the principal of impermanence. This calls for different approaches and methods. Previously, the effective strategy was focusing on religious freedom as this approach gave the Dorje Shugden ban a lot of constructive attention and support required at that time. As a result of this strategy, 1) more individuals are able to keep their practice of our great Protector, 2) Dorje Shugden Monasteries such as Shar Ganden and Serpom were established and 3) Dorje Shugden worship flourished in the West and China.

Today, as media coverage grow, more "negative" aspects of the controversy is being captured. As Lineageholder stated, such images and headlines can cause loss of faith in Buddhadharma. So, to seize the situation, it is time for a change in strategy. There is no certainty whether this new stand will achieve the desired result of returning focus to and faith in pure Dharma practice. However, with clear and stable intentions inscribed in our minds, I pray sincerely and have deep belief that Dorje Shugden will continuously guide us and show us the best way of the time.

Thank you Middleway for posing a thought provoking question: "Also, do you also include the DL when you say 'those who disparage... probably do not believe in karma or future lives?" Although the question is not directed to me, I would like to respectfully share this opinion: Belief in karma and rebirth is the foundation of Buddhadharma teachings (as I learn in Dharma talks and reading materials). None of us are free from the law of cause and effect and H.H is also subject to the karma that arises as a result of his actions. Therefore, it is unlikely that the Dalai Lama "does not believe in karma and future lives".

However, I believe that the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being and aware of his decisions and actions as well as their consequential karma. If the intention and final consequence of H.H's decision is in totality beneficial, he may not necessarily collect negative karma some may apparently perceive. In one of Buddha Shykamuni's incarnation, he fed himself to a starving tigress so that she could live and feed her cubs. Superficially, the act of killing oneself will cause very negative karma but in Buddha's case, it did not. There are many other stories like this including that of Milerapa and Marpa that our level of mind may not be able to grasp at this moment. Therefore, it is unlikely that we can determine H.H’s intentions. It may be better that we focus more energy in Dharma practice to develop our minds.

[honeydakini]

Thanks LeeDhi for starting this thread. I think it's a very important and relevant question to ponder: how do we choose between Dorje Shugden AND/OR Dalai Lama... and in fact, DO we have to choose?

I cannot purport to understand even a modicum of how difficult this decision must be for people whose guru is Dalai Lama and at the same time, who have DS as a central practice their whole life. this situation is a huge conundrum and so intricate for each individual.

I will not try to speak on behalf of them and shall not pretend to know the answers for them. What i am about to say is for many of us out there who don't have Dalai Lama as a direct Guru (but who may somehow still be connected to him through the lineage of lamas - our lama's lama etc) but who still respect him and regard him very highly. In may ways, this position makes it easier for us to criticise or jump on a political band wagon, one side or the other, as we may not feel like we have anything to "risk" since we're not really connected to him.

In this situation - where he is not our direct guru but still a lineage guru or a teacher we respect - we can maintain a balance by contemplating on the good teachings that he has given. Whether or not his own actions accord to his teachings does not have to affect whether we make OUR OWN ACTIONS accord with the Dharma teachings. We may not agree with the man, but we can still take the teachings to heart, practise them and gain attainments.

I remember an advice from a teacher I met once, which was to always visualise your gurus as the Buddha in your meditations. Whatever he may seem to be doing on the outside - political, material, etc - we should still maintain in our meditations that he is the Buddha. On our side, we continue to receive the benefit, merit and attainments for learning to regard and respond to our guru in this way. It is a method to focus on the positive aspects and teachings of the teacher which of course brings much complementary benefit to our spiritual practices.

I have found this to be helpful in thinking about the dalai lama's supposedly negative and political actions. I do not agree with the ban nor what is being done, but I do still respect his teachings and have found them to be very insightful and, if I may say so, rather enlightening. If there was no politics or any of this involved, we would still regard the teachings very highly. I think it is helpful to think positively about this aspect during times like this.