Dorje Shugden vs Dalai Lama or Dorje Shugden AND Dalai Lama? A new choice

[Midakpa]

Dear Lee Dhi,

You have explained the situations, past and present, very clearly. I understand the frustration of those who have been affected by the ban and I deeply sympathise with them. Some have taken actions to remedy the situation, calling them "wrathful actions", as if ordinary beings like us are capable of such actions.

Your motivation to promote a more positive attitude and to move from a negative to a positive stance comes from a genuine concern for others and a clarity of mind that can rise above the confusion.

Due to negative exposure of the controversy in the media, the world might lose faith in the Buddhadharma. Very true.

In your reply to Middleway's comments and queries, I think you have answered them for me. Thank you.

However, let me add that I agree with Middleway that "when thinking about negative karma we principally have to look at our intention." Yes, intention is everything. If our motivation is pure (like the action of promoting the buddhadharma, although it gives rise to a lot of controversy) then there is no negative karma. As you have said, enlightened beings know what they are doing. It is our own delusions that prevent us from seeing their actions as pure.

By the words "disparaging the Dalai Lama", I meant that many negative things and hurtful words have been said about the Dalai Lama. I don't think I need to elaborate on this. 

The law of karma applies to all, as long as we are in samsara.

[Geronimo]

I guess you did not hear what Dalia Lama said about us? I gather you have not read the history to yet understand that even the Mormons see themselves in celestial families and one day being a god with your own planet to rule over with slaves and your loving family does not mean it is true.Yet millions subscribe to this belief everyday?
Some think this issue with the Dalia Lama is a Lam Rim Teaching and he is not really as human as you or I?
Disparging remarks do not apply when referring to a man who actively enslaved others as Serfs.People who are alive today, once served forced labor and were subjugated by a dictator. Now, he might be some sort of Buddha and so might you or I? I have a tendency to learn from history and what people have done and still do. He transferred his lording onto others, because his Highness was being subjugated by others,Kick the dog syndrome. Now as far as being a Teacher? Well he has so much material to draw from, why not? No where in Lord Buddha's Teaching does he say, kick others around. This man kicks others around and this betrays who he is inside. Bigger Picture does not include him in that act, He will Be Long Gone!
I find it queer that anyone would hide their beliefs,but then I am a Westener and I also know it will take some time for the trembling memories of their former condition as 95% were Serfs and Slaves and some 5% were Lamas and monks, aristocrats fade from their conditioning a new free Tibetan will emerge after centuries of sufferage while the lamas practiced the dharma is Concentration Camp Conditions make me realize how lucky we are not to be stuck in some medieval hole under the Dalia Lama Serf Institution. What we have today MUST undergo change to purge the impurities of the Sangha Breakers, the TGIE and the Eight Ruling Families of Tibet tainting approaches to the dharma, We must find out. For some of us, this is not a question of breaking a few vows and slandering the Dalia Lama. it is about Defending the Lineage of Our Masters with whatever means we deem available to make an impression on his Holiness. We are not sheep in a pen. We are Warriors of Shambala Defending The Dharma Empowered by the Dharmapala Shri Dorje Shugden.
Making mistakes would be letting him get away with this schism without calling him to task.
We Challenge Him to deal with Us! We are not asking, We demand his attention, and one way  or another we will get his attention to the realization that he alone has inflicted a division within the Global Community and this is on his head. All must obey the law or we suffer the consequences of lawlessness.
H.H. Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang said, have faith in the Dalia Lama, but Trijang Choktrul Ripoche dropped his robes to get away from the authority of the Dalia Lama and presents a new model for Lay Dharma Teachers in his Labrang in the West.

[Midakpa]

I thought the Dalai Lama allowed Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden! I saw a video on YouTube.

[Middleway]

Dear Lee Dhi,

You have explained the situations, past and present, very clearly. I understand the frustration of those who have been affected by the ban and I deeply sympathise with them. Some have taken actions to remedy the situation, calling them "wrathful actions", as if ordinary beings like us are capable of such actions.

Are you so sure it's ordinary beings engaging in these actions? Speaking for myself I'm ordinary, but I can certainly muster the apropriate motivation to forcefully ask someone to stop being abusive when they've failed to engage in other dialogue.  I have to constantly check my mind with it, but it's not really 'beyond'. Certainly not with the blessings & guidance of my Spiritual Guide anyway.  Interestingly I don't feel frustrated either.  Well, not right now.  When I do I take it as a sign to back off & meditate.

Your motivation to promote a more positive attitude and to move from a negative to a positive stance comes from a genuine concern for others and a clarity of mind that can rise above the confusion.

What negative stance are you talking about? Standing up & demanding someone to stop being abusive, or something else?

Due to negative exposure of the controversy in the media, the world might lose faith in the Buddhadharma. Very true.

Not all the media coverage has been negative - not by a long shot.  I'll say again - if someone within the Irish Catholic Church had been prepared to stand up & make a noise about the child abuse scandal when the abuses were first reported the church'd have a lot more integrity now.  It is the lack of action & denial, much more than the actual abuse, that has destroyed people's faith now that the truth is emerging.  The parallel seems striking - one of the reasons the Bishops covered up the abuse was because they felt the need to protect faith by guarding people's view of the church (I'm talking about the church as a structure distinct from the Christian doctrine) as infallible & pure.  How much more healthy would it have been, and how much faith would have been saved if they'd taken the position 'the doctrine is pure, but we as human beings are fallible.'  The latter attitude breeds personal responsibility, the former breeds a culture of silence.  Again, it's a mixing Dharma & politics 'the DL IS Dharma so an attack on him is an attack on Dharma' - wrong.

As you have said, enlightened beings know what they are doing. It is our own delusions that prevent us from seeing their actions as pure.

Are you including the DL in the category of enlightened beings?  If you hold this recognition in accordance with the pure view of Secret Mantra I rejoice.  On any other level we have to say that the DL's action's are not in accordance with those of a Buddha, therefore he is not a safe basis of imputation for 'Buddha'.  I am not prepared to hold that view of him just because there is some convention in certain circles to hold that view - it needs to be earned.  To think otherwise is blind faith.  To suggest people who do not go along with that blind faith are being negative or damaging Dharma (if indeed you are making that suggestion, if not then please take this as a general comment in regard to any such assertion that might be made), is at best ignorant, at worst a bullying tactic. It seeks to undermine their position by projecting negative characteristics on them that can not be supported by observation (like constantly calling someone 'negative', 'frustrated' etc, framing them in a light which suits a certain agenda).

By the words "disparaging the Dalai Lama", I meant that many negative things and hurtful words have been said about the Dalai Lama. I don't think I need to elaborate on this. 

I think you do need to elaborate!  Negative things have been said about the DL - we have pointed out his negative acts.  If anyone is hurt on reading these I can only say 'don't shoot the messenger'.  The truth needs to come out or we're in big trouble - and so is the DL by the way.

[Big Uncle]

Let me remind you of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors.

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. "

I think the message by our lineage Lama is pretty straight-forward but takes a lot from us to follow and adhere because it would require us to really practice the Dharma. But I am pretty sure that many will be able to with enough information and interpretation of these plus the eager propagation of the benefits of our Protector.

[Middleway]

Hi Big Uncle, could you give me a reference for that quote please? Thank you.

[honeydakini]

Let me remind you of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice from Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors.

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future. "

I think the message by our lineage Lama is pretty straight-forward but takes a lot from us to follow and adhere because it would require us to really practice the Dharma. But I am pretty sure that many will be able to with enough information and interpretation of these plus the eager propagation of the benefits of our Protector.

An apt reminder, thank you Big Uncle.

At our level, there is no way we can tell if someone is a Buddha, even if Buddha himself manifested right in front of us and is talking directly to us. So it can be dangerous for us to criticise beings - especially those which are clearly within the 3 jewels, such as deities that we are not well informed about or even Sangha, no matter how much we may disagree with their actions. My own Guru comes down very strongly on any of his students if they speak against other lamas even if they disagree with his methods etc

I understand the need to speak up against what the actions of Dalai Lama as it has such detrimental effects on others, but we must be clear at all times of our motivation and be careful that it doesn't cross over to becoming criticism against DL himself. I know this has been said many times over but, I am saying it again, in light of this apt quote, as Big Uncle has reminded us. Ultimately, the karma of speaking ill against a being that could possibly be enlightened can come back to us in a way we can never foretell.

In any case, it is always helpful to regard every single being we come across as being possibly of an enlightened nature - this trains us to regard everyone in light of their Buddha nature, and in a positive light, rather than to focus on each other's negativities.

[Lee Dhi]

Yes, we must stand up for what we believe is the “right” thing to do for the benefit of as all sentient beings. The Irish Catholic Church is a very good illustration, thank you! Relating this context to our discussion: we need to make a clear distinction between:

i)   Bringing to public attention the unjust ban of Dorje Shugden and the need to remove this ban and
ii)   Focusing on the claims that the Dalai Lama is “evil”, the Dalai Lama is a liar etc. (these accusations are readily available and accessible on the Internet)

In my point of view, it is more beneficial to fight for point i) above compared to point ii).

With regards to the Dalai Lama as a Guru or Buddha: If one does not choose H.H as his/her (Root) Guru or view him as a Buddha, it is all right. We are encouraged and told to “check out” any (Root) Guru carefully to ensure that he or she is genuine before taking refuge. Therefore, the choice of one’s Guru is very personal and must be respected. From the writings it would seem that some of us do NOT choose H.H as our Guru or to see him as a Buddha. That is, as mentioned, perfectly fine. In fact it is good that we are not Guru/center-hoping (i.e. taking refuge with one Guru to the next and taking learning from here and there, which can cause confusion) as this is discouraged unless the student is given blessings by the (Root) Guru to go to another Guru. However, in making the choice that H.H is not one’s Guru does not mean that one should criticize or attack him on a personal level (with accusations directed to him as a being).

I agree with Honeydakini that we should always respect the teachings of H.H because those are the teachings of Lord Buddha Shyakamuni. Disregarding them in any way for any reason is an indirect disregard to the holy Dharma. On a similar note, I was once taught that we must always show respect to persons wearing monk/nun’s robes, not because we respect that person per se but because we respect his/her representation of the 3 Jewels.
* Note, respect does not mean we must agree with him/her.

Lastly, I would like to quote from “Eight Steps to Happiness, The Buddhist Way of Loving Kindness” by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso in relation to the verse: 

Whenever I associate with others,
May I view myself as the lowest of all;
And with the perfect intention,
May I cherish others as supreme.

In relation to this verse, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso wrote (page 66) “…preciousness is not an intrinsic quality of an object but depends upon an individual’s needs and wishes, which in turn depend upon his or her karma. For someone whose main wish is to achieve the spiritual realizations of love, compassion, bodhichitta and great enlightenment, living beings are more precious than a universe filled with diamonds or even wish-granting jewels…because living beings help that person to develop love and compassion and to fulfill their wish for enlightenment.” Geshe Kelsang Gyatso also wrote (page 59): “…we do not regards others as precious because we pay attention to their faults whilst ignoring their good qualities.” 

From this verse of mind transformation taught by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso through this powerful and wonderful book, I understand that it will benefit all Dharma practitioners better to treat all sentient beings, especially those whom we view as “bad” or “wrong” as supreme because they give us the direct opportunity to develop spiritual realizations and ultimate enlightenment. 

[diamond girl]

Dear Lee Dhi and All,

Firstly, thank you Lee Dhi for starting this thread. You have raised an interesting perspective and I for one have been contemplating the possibility of Dalai Lama AND Dorje Shugden. So, I am grateful you started this thread and many others have commented their views.

It is encouraging that there is some level of acceptance to this new stand of Dorje Shugden AND Dalai Lama. As time goes by, situations and conditions change, which is aligned to the principal of impermanence. This calls for different approaches and methods. Previously, the effective strategy was focusing on religious freedom as this approach gave the Dorje Shugden ban a lot of constructive attention and support required at that time. As a result of this strategy, 1) more individuals are able to keep their practice of our great Protector, 2) Dorje Shugden Monasteries such as Shar Ganden and Serpom were established and 3) Dorje Shugden worship flourished in the West and China.

As much as we can be attached to our views and the desire to be "right" and our ego prevails, the dialogue we've been having on this forum is evident that times have changed. More so is that I can see that several people have become more open and less one-sided in their views. And I think that if we continue to bring live to this forum and get more involved, we can create the causes for this ban to be lifted, or diminish.

Let's continue to express our views and have more people join us, irregardless whether they know this topic, are anti-DS, pro-DS, anti-DL or pro-DL. Everyone has a right to knowledge and freedom to make choices and opinions.

THANK YOU ALL for all your views and education.

[a friend]

However, I believe that the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being and aware of his decisions and actions as well as their consequential karma. If the intention and final consequence of H.H's decision is in totality beneficial, he may not necessarily collect negative karma some may apparently perceive. In one of Buddha Shykamuni's incarnation, he fed himself to a starving tigress so that she could live and feed her cubs. Superficially, the act of killing oneself will cause very negative karma but in Buddha's case, it did not. There are many other stories like this including that of Milerapa and Marpa that our level of mind may not be able to grasp at this moment. Therefore, it is unlikely that we can determine H.H’s intentions. It may be better that we focus more energy in Dharma practice to develop our minds.

Enlightened beings that appear in the world as such NEVER had in any known stories the behavior of this Dalai Lama. 
Let´s take your stories one by one. You take the Jataka tale about the tigress, you could´ve taken others, like the ship captain that kills the killer ... you forget that in none of those stories the person is Buddha Shakyamuni, those are stories precisely from the time when he was NOT a Buddha yet. Besides, who told you that to sacrifice yourself is a bad deed? Excuse me, it is not. So the example of the tigress is not valid.
How about Milarepa and Marpa? What was Marpa´s bad deed? You cannot be serious. He was rough with Mila, and so what, that was the custom at the time, to punish disciples in a wrathful way so he was not doing anything improper. And there is nothing hidden there: he was making Mila sweat litterally his bad karma as a killer in that same lifetime. I never understood that anybody can give this story and compare it to what the Dalai Lama did.
Son, again: to maintain that the Dalai Lama had a higher purpose for the ban is an offence against the Buddhas. Buddhas, when they appear as Buddhas, have a first and foremost enlightened deed to accomplish: to show sentient beings what is wrong and what is good, what produces suffering and what happiness, what to abandon and what to practice. So if you maintain that the Dalai Lama is a Buddha then you have to follow not only his advice (which you don´t do, I remind you, since you are a DSh practitioner or at least friend) but main thing is: you have to follow his example. You have to abandon your Lama, you have to proclaim horrid things about him. Don´t forget that the ban about a Deity is nothing per se, it´s the fact that the person who put the ban is destroying the Dharma that his Lama gave him, that he is defaming his Guru, that he forced people to break samaya with their own Gurus ... please do not make me repeat once and again this sad tale.

So again, the best thing we can do for the Dalai Lama is to pray for him. To pray for him, to dedicate for him our merits ... never to praise him for the unfortunate actions that he did.

[Middleway]

Lee Dhi - the DL IS a liar and his actions ARE evil. Not inherently, but by any practical convention.  So being practically conventional people we need to practically & conventionally point this out. Seems fair to me & no one has yet provided a good reason not to.

[Lineageholder]

Let me just say that I find it sad that many practitioners of Dorje Shugden are unable to discriminate clearly between virtuous and harmful actions and are therefore unable to see how much damage the Dalai Lama is doing to Je Tsongkhapa's tradition.

Pure view doesn't mean ignoring the blatantly negative.  It's not about making excuses for someone's negative behaviour either.

If the Dalai Lama is your root Guru, then I pity you, sincerely.  No doubt you are in a difficult situation, but please don't make excuses for all these unbearably evil actions in your attempt to justify the Dalai Lama as a holy being.

[Lee Dhi]

Dear a friend,

Dharma teaches us to practice wisdom. Times passes by the moment and conditions change just as quickly. I do not believe that it is practical or beneficial to refer to a constant example or advise (especially when we consider the teaching on impermanence). However, I do believe that the context from which one lives or operates from can remain applicable for a longer period of time.

The Dalai Lama has done a lot throughout his life of 75 years. Some of the things he did are perceived as “bad” while others “good”. The contextual example I will follow of H.H is the efforts to spread the Dharma and have the Dharma touch as many lives as possible because I have strong belief that this effort will benefit many.

You claim that the Dalai Lama has destroyed “the Dharma his Lama gave him…” (I assume you are referring to the practice of Dorje Shugden). However, based on overall results, it seems like the practice and worship of our Great King – Dorje Shugden have flourished all over the world as a result of the ban.

I apologize if you feel that the comparison of Jataka’s tale and that of Milerapa & Marpa to the Dalai Lama is inappropriate. I read your arguments and thank you for your insight while maintaining my view. I would also like to add that we can all rest assured that nothing can offend the Buddha, whether done unintentionally or intentionally, because Lord Buddha possess limitless compassion and wisdom. I only hope that I have not offended you too much.

Even if the Dalai Lama is my Root Guru (which he is not), there is no need to feel pity for me because, indirectly, I have the Dharma in my life because of H.H. Furthermore, I have complete faith that the Dharma is my path towards attainments and enlightenment.

I am very happy to hear that you will pray for and dedicate your merits to the Dalai Lama; I also respect your focus on the unfortunate actions he took. I too pray with you that the suffering experienced by many Dorje Shugden practitioners will end soon and that Dorje Shugden’s practice will flourish further!

[Lee Dhi]

Dear Middleway, I get what you mean about the practical and conventional view of the situation. It is necessary to communicate the need to eliminate the ban of Dorje Shugden, uphold religious freedom and end the suffering experienced by Dorje Shugden practitioners.

At the same time, it is also necessary, in my belief, that all Dharma practitioners should (choose to) see a clear reason to move away from criticizing the Dalai Lama (because, in my point of view, the time for that is over) and re-focus their efforts to their Dharma practice (especially that of our great Protector) so that we can reinforce the cause for Dorje Shugden practice to further flourish.

To cause the choice above and create a new focus on pure Dharma, I understand that more efforts and supporting arguments are required. I will continue to work on it!

Lastly, I thank you for your posts, which are always kind but challenging ?

[WisdomBeing]

Whether the Dalai Lama has a bigger picture or not, whether he is doing virtuous or harmful actions, i think that not many people here on the forum are able to discern at the moment. The best we can do is state what we believe, our different points of view and reasons behind them, which i think we have done already. It may sound cliched but really - only time will tell how this conundrum unfolds. In the meantime, like Lee Dhi says, let's focus on our Dharma practice to represent our Protector Dorje Shugden well. This will create the causes for the world to take a different view of Dorje Shugden in the near future.