Other Lamas Advising Against Dorje Shugden?

[thor]

This was extracted from a talk by Lama Zopa:

"Some people think that the practice of Shugden prevents Lama Tsongkhapa’s teachings from degenerating and promotes their development. But there have been many Gelug lamas who without practicing Shugden, spread Buddhadharma, spread the stainless teaching of Lama Tsongkhapa like the sky. Lamas like Their Holinesses the Thirteenth and the Fourteenth Dalai Lamas, Ling Rinpoche and Kachen Yeshe Gyaltsen—a great, well-known Tibetan lama who wrote many, many teachings and not only didn’t practice Shugden but also advised against the practice.

Purchog Jampa Rinpoche, a very high lama of Sera Je Monastery and an incarnation of Maitreya Buddha, wrote against the practice of Shugden in the Monastery’s constitution. Jangkya Rölpa’i Dorje and Jangkyang Ngawang Chödrön, who wrote many excellent texts, also advised against this practice, as did Tenpa’i Wangchuk, the Eighth Panchen Lama, and Losang Chökyi Gyaltsen, the Fourth Panchen Lama, who composed the Guru Puja and wrote many other teachings, and Ngulchu Dharmabhadra. All these great lamas, and many other highly accomplished scholars and yogis who preserved and spread the stainless teaching of Lama Tsongkhapa, recommended that Shugden not be practiced.

This point is very important, because people think that His Holiness the Dalai Lama is the only one trying to stop the practice of Shugden. Therefore, the people who are practicing it get negative towards His Holiness. But His Holiness is not the only one. There are many other high lamas who, in monastery constitutions, have advised their monasteries not to practice, or, if they are practicing, to stop. There are many, many lamas who have done this."

Perhaps someone on this forum can advise if there is any basis to these statements?

The full article is here (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3196):

[a friend]

Dear friends, Trinley Kelsang has answered these questions in his great website. His humility does not allow him to say it but I can say it because I read through his research.
 
About the Lamas mentioned there, they could´ve been advising against any Protector, it´s the biased reading of the Dalai Lama´s followers that put in their sayings what they didn't say.

But please go to his website and find out:
http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/index.html

.

[Middleway]

  utter rejoicing in the dispelling of silly talk 

[emptymountains]

You may find this blog post interesting:

http://truthaboutshugden.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/the-dalai-lamas-research-concerning-past-masters-and-dorje-shugden/

My comment to this blog (still awaiting approval) is:

It should be noted that when the Dalai Lama summaries his investigation, he says that we must contrast Phabongkhapa’s views next to the views of (a) the Fifth Dalai Lama, (b) Phurchog Ngawang Tampa, a Mahamudra lineage holder, and (c) Trichen Ngawang Chokdhen, a Ganden Tripa.

This blog has done a great service in explaining (c). Did you also know that his reincarnation is one of the featured Lamas on the Dorje Shugden History website? Check out:

http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts-1759.html

For (b), why is it that the Dalai Lama always these Masters quotes word for word, and yet when it comes to their supposed proscriptions against Shugden he has to make parenthetical remarks like, “here it very clearly states that the spirit was Dholgyal” (not!) … “it is not specifically stated that the spirit is Dholgyal, but it is clear from Changkya’s biography that the spirit referred to is Dholgyal” … ” It is clearly stated below that this account refers to Dholgyal.”

Well, if you’re quoting everything else verbatim, why not give us the direct quotes for these, too?

[crazycloud]

Lamas like Their Holinesses the Thirteenth

Ambiguous, possibly... but doesn't seem likely, see Dorje Shugden History RE: Pabonbka Rinpoche entry

Fourteenth Dalai Lama

I heard this Lama DID actually try to ban the practice, but was ultimately unsuccessful...poor fellow.

Ling Rinpoche

NOPE.

Kachen Yeshe Gyaltsen

NOPE.

Purchog Jampa Rinpoche, a very high lama of Sera Je Monastery and an incarnation of Maitreya Buddha, wrote against the practice of Shugden in the Monastery’s constitution.

Have heard this before, but never seen any evidence. Given the intensity with which the TGIE has been promoting this ridiculous idea, if it was there I suspect we would've seen it by now.

Jangkya Rölpa’i Dorje

NOPE.

Jangkyang Ngawang Chödrön,

Never heard of him. Later rebirth of Rolpai Dorje, perhaps?

Or is this supposed to be Trichen Nagawang Chogden? If so, NOPE.

Tenpa’i Wangchuk, the Eighth Panchen Lama,

Never heard he tried to Ban (except from Lama Z). Ninth and tenth ended up practicing, so what does THAT tell you?

Losang Chökyi Gyaltsen, the Fourth Panchen Lama,

Is it worht the time it takes to type it that Lama Losang Chokyi Gyaltsen passed away before the name Dorje Shugden was ever uttered? That there was preciecly NO PRACTICE whatsoever to ban?

Ngulchu Dharmabhadra.

Apparently heard that DS was causing some harm by banging some boulders together. How he felt about being told this is not in the record, nor is it ever mentioned that he ever tried to ban. Silly, if you ask me....

Also, Mahamudra Lineage Guru Khedrub Tenzin Tsondru, direct disciple of Je Dharmabhadra and his Nephew Yangchen Drupai Dorje, ended up being a famous Dorje Sugden practitoner. Go figger, huh?

SO....


Then go have a look at those Lamas that unquestionably DID engage in the practice. Ganden Tripas, Sakya Tris, abbots of the three great monasteries, abbots of the tantric monasteries, Ganden ear whispered lineage holders, Tenshaps to Various DL's, Yongdzins to various DL's, your lineage gurus, your lama, Kybabje Pabonka R, Kybabje Trijang R, Kyabje Zong R...etc etc etc etc etc.....

In conclusion,

Dalai Lama, Stop lying.

[honeydakini]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts - I had read that piece that was posted by Dulzin too and was puzzled by it. Then again, i did think at the time that there wasn't even any evidence as to when these lamas denounced the practice or the context in which they may have commented on it. On the other hand, as you have also mentioned, the overwhelming numbers of masters who HAVE practised DS openly and certainly, far outnumber this little list and their practice was very much celebrated and renown.

I have heard that something like 99% per cent of monks in monasteries like Gaden and Sera practised Dorje Shugden - to make these accusations that a few DS lamas denounced the practice is to say that ALL these monks of the monasteries were also wrong, and all the monks who practised over the past 350 years were wrong. how can that be?! That would mean almost our entire lineage of masters have been engaging in a wrong practices. Oh dear!

What was also quite disturbing to me when I read this article by Lama Zopa is that I had previously thought that at the very least Lama Zopa did not speak against the practice but only in the context of promoting and adhering to Dalai Lama's advice. This shows that he goes a little further in denouncing the "wrongness" of the practice. It is quite disheartening to hear him saying / publishing this view so publically.

[thor]

I particularly liked crazycloud's post esp re 8th, 9th and 10th Panchen Lamas.
- the 8th Panchen Lama tried to ban Dorje Shugden, the 9th and 10th practised.
- similarly, various lives of the Dalai Lama either banned, practised or switched between the two (the 14th!)
I would conclude they do what is necessary for that particular time.

[Big Uncle]

Personally, we can keep on talking about Lamas who practices Dorje Shugden and those that opposes it till the cows come home. As far as i am concerned, only my Lama's words and teachings are paramount because listening to other Lamas can contradict my samaya with my Lama.

I think, we should spread the word that Dorje Shugden is special and extremely beneficial and for people to commit to a Lama and go all the way. We also shouldn't just loose faith in the Lama just because we read that some Lamas don't approve of the practices that our own Lama has given us. On the other hand, we should spread the word that those who are with a Lama who discourage certain practices like Dorje Shugden to go round on a witch hunt because we are severing the samaya people have with their Lamas. This is severe karma because it causes others to break their samaya and hence not able to gain any attainments. And if the Lama is attained, we get even bigger negative karma because we obstruct their Dharma work that can potentially benefit many beings.

That is what I think is more important than debate and research on what certain Lamas said about Dorje Shugden.

[honeydakini]

Personally, we can keep on talking about Lamas who practices Dorje Shugden and those that opposes it till the cows come home. As far as i am concerned, only my Lama's words and teachings are paramount because listening to other Lamas can contradict my samaya with my Lama.

I think, we should spread the word that Dorje Shugden is special and extremely beneficial and for people to commit to a Lama and go all the way. We also shouldn't just loose faith in the Lama just because we read that some Lamas don't approve of the practices that our own Lama has given us. On the other hand, we should spread the word that those who are with a Lama who discourage certain practices like Dorje Shugden to go round on a witch hunt because we are severing the samaya people have with their Lamas. This is severe karma because it causes others to break their samaya and hence not able to gain any attainments. And if the Lama is attained, we get even bigger negative karma because we obstruct their Dharma work that can potentially benefit many beings.

That is what I think is more important than debate and research on what certain Lamas said about Dorje Shugden.

Well said big uncle!

At the end of the day, we must always remember the advice of our lamas and not let the advice of another lama influence our practice and decisions just because that Lama is of a higher status, bigger name, more influential etc. I think this is what is happening increasingly, throughout the world - that people kinda name-drop Lamas' names to get more clout onto their side, and this gets very dangerous. People forgo their own Lama's advice because another higher name with bigger, more numerous centres advises against that practice. Then it never ends - what happens if yet another higher lama comes along and tells you to resume the practice? Then what? We end up only confused by the practices and in the end, even lose faith in what we're practising.

[dsnowlion]

Personally, we can keep on talking about Lamas who practices Dorje Shugden and those that opposes it till the cows come home. As far as i am concerned, only my Lama's words and teachings are paramount because listening to other Lamas can contradict my samaya with my Lama.

I think, we should spread the word that Dorje Shugden is special and extremely beneficial and for people to commit to a Lama and go all the way. We also shouldn't just loose faith in the Lama just because we read that some Lamas don't approve of the practices that our own Lama has given us. On the other hand, we should spread the word that those who are with a Lama who discourage certain practices like Dorje Shugden to go round on a witch hunt because we are severing the samaya people have with their Lamas. This is severe karma because it causes others to break their samaya and hence not able to gain any attainments. And if the Lama is attained, we get even bigger negative karma because we obstruct their Dharma work that can potentially benefit many beings.

That is what I think is more important than debate and research on what certain Lamas said about Dorje Shugden.

I cannot agree with you more. At the end of the day just follow your Lama's advice. One Lama is enough no need so many. Choose one, trust one and go all the way. No confusion there. And besides I don't think any Lama would encourage their students to condemn another sangha/monk. My Lama does not advice so I am going to just follow that. Period!

Besides who are we to say and know what is his/her motivation. Nobody knows except the Buddhas. Perhaps there could be more then 1 method like what honeydakini said in another post.

The Buddha taught us 84,000 different methods for different minds. So I guess why not to a peaceful strategy. I don't like headache and pin pong games so I'll choose the more peaceful middle way approach. Thank you

[crazycloud]

Disagree.

It can be very important for those who have not developed an unshakeable faith in a Lama as yet to KNOW that the great Lamas they are being told rejected the practice DID NOT, and that many many Great Lamas in whom they have faith were indeed practitioners.

It helps to understand, for example, that if you say that Dorje Shugden is a ghost, the Ganden tradition is closed to you as no blessings will flow into your mindstream. Why? Your lack of faith prevents it. What blessings could you recieve from ordinary beings who thought a malicious spirit was an enlightened being?

Therefore, if you hope to benefit others by relying on Ganden tradition, better get right with Dorje Shugden!

 

[vajralight]

In an old Mandala magazine (FPMT magazine) there was a description of Lama Zopa traveling to Mongolia.
At a monastery there he proposed to offer food for all the monks............except those who practiced Dorje Shugden.
He then said that if they renounced Dorje Shugden practice he would pay for their food too. I don't have this issue but it was probably 10 years ago.

So he is really trying to destroy the practice.

Vajra

PS if someone has old Mandala magazines, maybe they could check ? It might have been an issue dating 1999.



 

[Geronimo]

To All The Lamas and Devoted to Shri Dorje Shugden Sing His Praise!

The Great King
Duldzin Dorje Shugden


O Hero Manjushri and Yamantaka in a fearsome disguise,

With the strength of a million Dharma Protectors; to you

we offer praise.

With a captivating, ruby smile of affection and compassion,

You are graceful whether wrathful, affectionate, peaceful, or smiling.

The moment we remember the unseen secrets of your body,

You grant all needs and wishes; to you we offer praise.

You hold a wisdom sword that cuts asunder the foe of samsara,

and a heart of great bliss that overcomes the extreme of peace.

You display skilful means beyond the extremes of samsara and peace,

O Glory of countless living beings, to you we offer praise.

 Kyabje Zong Rinpoche teachings on chanting prayers of Dorje Shugden
www.youtube.com

[Midakpa]

It is important for a practitioner to "commit to a lama and go all the way" (see Big Uncle) and not worry about what other lamas say. But for those who have "developed unshakeable faith in a lama" (see Crazycloud) it is all right to follow the development of the controversy, find out about what other lamas say and understand the situation. It is important to know what is going on but one's faith in one's lama must not waver.

[Lineageholder]

It is equally important to check everything against Buddha's words, the treatises and previous masters to determine the truth of the matter.  Also if one's lama is asking you to do something non-virtuous then it is important not to become like a robot and execute heinous acts.

I completely agree with this.  If it doesn't accord with reason, it should not be accepted.  I had the idea to analyse the Dalai Lama's reasons for banning Dorje Shugden using the analysis of the three modes and so forth to show that, according to Buddhist logic, they are not tenable.

There is no valid cognizer that apprehends Dorje Shugden to a spirit and the ban to be justified.