Gyalpo Sum - Three Protectors of Sakya

[Vajraprotector]

Thank you Big Uncle for explanation. But my question is, if we cannot propitiate unenlightened/ oath-bound protector in their own right (I might not get this right), so why is the TGIE propitiating Nechung? There's also a monastery of Nechung.

[Big Uncle]

Dear Vajraprotector,
I think you can propitiate unenlightened but not in the same regard as a Enlightened Protector. Hence, we can make offerings like how we would do to powerful and very important people for favours. Hence, I think Nechung is only requested for advice and assistance. We do not propitiate him like in the same way we propitiate Dorje Shugden. Remember, even just because he is unenlightened, doesn't mean he doesn't have attainments. He has served the Dalai Lama for many generations now. He must have some sort of attainments by now.

[Ensapa]

This thread caught my attention as there are many parties out there, of other traditions, who use this information based on the view on their own tradition to put down Dorje Shugden and Dorje Setrap. How shall we answer this? But then again, why are they, of another lineage, criticizing ours? Why are they comparing our tradition against theirs? But It would be good to provide more definitive facts to stop them from creating more unfortunate conditions to themselves.

Karche Marpo is one of Tsui Marpo's retinue originally, one of the 7 emanations.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

This thread caught my attention as there are many parties out there, of other traditions, who use this information based on the view on their own tradition to put down Dorje Shugden and Dorje Setrap. How shall we answer this? But then again, why are they, of another lineage, criticizing ours? Why are they comparing our tradition against theirs? But It would be good to provide more definitive facts to stop them from creating more unfortunate conditions to themselves.

Karche Marpo is one of Tsui Marpo's retinue originally, one of the 7 emanations.

What are you talking about? I don't get your post at all. Anyone else get it?
Who's putting down Dhogyal? Just the facts are stated which is Dhogyal is a negative being and you have to stop worshipping him.

Kache Marpo or whatever defecting from Tsui Marpo to Shugden's camp doesn't say much for this entourage does it. I mean where is the loyalty?

[Ensapa]

This thread caught my attention as there are many parties out there, of other traditions, who use this information based on the view on their own tradition to put down Dorje Shugden and Dorje Setrap. How shall we answer this? But then again, why are they, of another lineage, criticizing ours? Why are they comparing our tradition against theirs? But It would be good to provide more definitive facts to stop them from creating more unfortunate conditions to themselves.

Karche Marpo is one of Tsui Marpo's retinue originally, one of the 7 emanations.

What are you talking about? I don't get your post at all. Anyone else get it?
Who's putting down Dhogyal? Just the facts are stated which is Dhogyal is a negative being and you have to stop worshipping him.

Kache Marpo or whatever defecting from Tsui Marpo to Shugden's camp doesn't say much for this entourage does it. I mean where is the loyalty?

If you dont get it, then i suggest you read more and do more research.

Please provide proof and quote the source where you found that Dorje Shugden is a negative being. If you cannot find any quotes to support your views, it is best not to post them. Simply saying that he is without proof is tantamount to slander. Please be respectful and remember where are you posting in.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

This thread caught my attention as there are many parties out there, of other traditions, who use this information based on the view on their own tradition to put down Dorje Shugden and Dorje Setrap. How shall we answer this? But then again, why are they, of another lineage, criticizing ours? Why are they comparing our tradition against theirs? But It would be good to provide more definitive facts to stop them from creating more unfortunate conditions to themselves.

Karche Marpo is one of Tsui Marpo's retinue originally, one of the 7 emanations.

What are you talking about? I don't get your post at all. Anyone else get it?
Who's putting down Dhogyal? Just the facts are stated which is Dhogyal is a negative being and you have to stop worshipping him.

Kache Marpo or whatever defecting from Tsui Marpo to Shugden's camp doesn't say much for this entourage does it. I mean where is the loyalty?

If you dont get it, then i suggest you read more and do more research.

Please provide proof and quote the source where you found that Dorje Shugden is a negative being. If you cannot find any quotes to support your views, it is best not to post them. Simply saying that he is without proof is tantamount to slander. Please be respectful and remember where are you posting in.

If I don't believe in Shugden and express it, it is not slander. Don't label it as that. You have your sources that say Shugden is good. Well my source is His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the supreme pontiff of Tibet who is warning us it is bad. That is pretty powerful stuff already.

Now if you want more proof, I suggest you research all the lamas that say Dhogyal is dangerous. You have not researched thoroughly the writings of Trichen Ngawang Chokden. The 13th Dalai Lama banning this protector. Loseling Kensur Pema Gyaltsen speaking out strongly against this protector and explaining to his many students over 25 years back.

There are much proof and you have to research because you persist in the practice. I've done my research and I am on HHDL's side on this one. Before you practice you have to research both sides as you would before confirming a root teacher. You don't just believe and not research the good and bad before adopting the practice. You have to be careful since it is your 'soul' we are talking about.

Make everyone's life simple, just get another protector. It's like a protector buffet to choose from. 

[harrynephew]

Dorje Shugden's main attendant had always been Kharche Marpo while Namkhar Bardzin was a relative new comer as he was bound to Dorje Shugden relatively recently. One big difference between these two attendants is that Kharche Marpo is enlightened and has been recognised to be an emanation of Hayagriva just like Dorje Setrap while Namkhar Bardzin is a oath-bound Protector like Nechung. Hence, Kharche Marpo can actually be propitiated as a Dharma Protector in his own right while we don't do the same with Namkhar Bardzin.

I think with regards to the spread of Dorje Shugden, sometimes it would be wise to seek assistance from Kharche Marpo as that would be his job. No Buddha like Dorje Shugden is really interested in self-promotion so we look to Kharche Marpo. On the other hand, I heard that Namkhar Bardzin is really good to protect property and institutions.

I echo what Big Uncle has to say. I've always been familiar with the relationship of both Kache Marpo and Dorje Shugden working closely together to benefit sentient beings and of course the Dharma. It is without doubt that Namkar Barzin in part of Dorje Shugden's mandala but I think we should work closely with discretion and blessings of our Lama. This would be most appropriate.

It is not surprising to know that Tsiu Marpo, Setrab and Dorje Shugden were protectors of the Sakyas. Dharma is Dharma. Hence, protectors are here to protect. What difference does it make? As it is my stand always. Dorje Shugden protects the teachings of Manjunatha Tsongkhapa which is a synthesis of the entire scope of Dharma from all lineages of Tibet and in entirety, protects the Dharma, lineages and gurus of all lineages.

[WisdomBeing]

If I don't believe in Shugden and express it, it is not slander. Don't label it as that. You have your sources that say Shugden is good. Well my source is His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the supreme pontiff of Tibet who is warning us it is bad. That is pretty powerful stuff already.

Now if you want more proof, I suggest you research all the lamas that say Dhogyal is dangerous. You have not researched thoroughly the writings of Trichen Ngawang Chokden. The 13th Dalai Lama banning this protector. Loseling Kensur Pema Gyaltsen speaking out strongly against this protector and explaining to his many students over 25 years back.

There are much proof and you have to research because you persist in the practice. I've done my research and I am on HHDL's side on this one. Before you practice you have to research both sides as you would before confirming a root teacher. You don't just believe and not research the good and bad before adopting the practice. You have to be careful since it is your 'soul' we are talking about.

Make everyone's life simple, just get another protector. It's like a protector buffet to choose from. 

I've done my research on both sides and have my sources - HH Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, HH Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche, HE Gangchen Rinpoche, HH 101st Gaden Trisur and many more great masters (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=37). Through the kindness of this website (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?page_id=46), I do think HH the Dalai Lama is not really against Dorje Shugden. I have looked at the Protector buffet as you call it and I have chosen Dorje Shugden as my protector, as did HH the Dalai Lama for many years.

HH the Dalai Lama who is Chenrezig and thus clairvoyant wrote a praise to Dorje Shugden. Was he wrong when he did so? HH the Dalai Lama who is the icon of Tibetan Buddhism and who would know the importance of keeping good samaya said his teachers were wrong.

You may decide that Dorje Shugden is not the right protector for you, which is fine. People follow different Protectors, different schools of Buddhism, different religions all round the world. It's not about following different Protectors or religions but about respecting each other's choices. Even HH the Dalai Lama has said that if you want to follow Dorje Shugden, go ahead, but don't come to my teachings. I haven't been to HH the Dalai Lama's teachings nor do i intend to. HH will play his role and i will follow my own. Can we peacefully coexist with acrimony? If you are Buddhist, then please be a good representation of one.

Wishing you all benefit and bliss

[Tenzin Gyatso]

HHDL banned Dhogyal for the welfare of the greater many. After much observation, investigation, consulting various teachers/monks/laity decided it would be less harmful for individual practice and the greater whole of Tibetan Buddhism to stop the practice of this one Dhogyal. He spoke for the greater good. What other motivation can he possibly have? What other benefits is there for him?

If you are truly Gelug, then you may adopt the practice of Kalarupa. If Kalarupa is dead or ineffective, then you may search for other protectors. Otherwise if you have Kalarupa, why is there a need to rely on Dhogyal?  None of the great seats of learning such as in Sakya or Gelug (Ganden, Sera, Depung) have installed Dhogyal as their principal protector, so why start now. This itself says so much.

Since Tsongkapa relied on Kalarupa as his protector and Kalarupa suited Tsongkapa, then we would be wise to follow suit.

Since followers of Tsongkapa follow the same philosophical tenants as he did, same yidams (Guyasamaja, Cakrasambara, Yamentaka and Kakachakra), same vinaya code, then why not also follow Tsongkapa's protector which is Kalarupa. Why do followers of Gelug follow everything as Tsongkapa did to reach his enlightenment and understanding EXCEPT his protector?

If you are a Tsongkapa follower then follow Tsongkapa's practice completely. Be a clean and thorough Gelug.

[wang]

Why do followers of Gelug follow everything as Tsongkapa did to reach his enlightenment and understanding EXCEPT his protector?

If you are a Tsongkapa follower then follow Tsongkapa's practice completely. Be a clean and thorough Gelug.

Come on.  Please read history of DS, it appeared after Tsongkapa...It is quite a pain to read that kind of comment, if one who made such comment received teachings coming from Pabongka Rinpoche and Trijiang Rinpoche...

Anyway I would like to throw one challenge back to you:
As of today, 23+ made self-immolation.  Please tell me why yet HHDL do not make open request to Tibetan not to do that kind of in-vain self-immolation, as 17th Karmapa already did?

I remember once HHDL be asked about these self-immolation while he was in Japan, and he didn't make comment, by reason of he be out of politics already.   Ok, just about religion and human lives, why HHDL not demand them(those teenage, not even read about history) not make further self-immolation....?  Because it is about POLITICS, so we can let them go?

[Ensapa]

HHDL banned Dhogyal for the welfare of the greater many. After much observation, investigation, consulting various teachers/monks/laity decided it would be less harmful for individual practice and the greater whole of Tibetan Buddhism to stop the practice of this one Dhogyal. He spoke for the greater good. What other motivation can he possibly have? What other benefits is there for him?

If you are truly Gelug, then you may adopt the practice of Kalarupa. If Kalarupa is dead or ineffective, then you may search for other protectors. Otherwise if you have Kalarupa, why is there a need to rely on Dhogyal?  None of the great seats of learning such as in Sakya or Gelug (Ganden, Sera, Depung) have installed Dhogyal as their principal protector, so why start now. This itself says so much.

Since Tsongkapa relied on Kalarupa as his protector and Kalarupa suited Tsongkapa, then we would be wise to follow suit.

Since followers of Tsongkapa follow the same philosophical tenants as he did, same yidams (Guyasamaja, Cakrasambara, Yamentaka and Kakachakra), same vinaya code, then why not also follow Tsongkapa's protector which is Kalarupa. Why do followers of Gelug follow everything as Tsongkapa did to reach his enlightenment and understanding EXCEPT his protector?

If you are a Tsongkapa follower then follow Tsongkapa's practice completely. Be a clean and thorough Gelug.

Dorje Shugden existed after Tsongkhapa's time. So your arguments do not make sense. It is not easy for laypeople to make a connection to an enlightened Dharmapala as we have much obscuration. 

the 11th Dalai Lama installed Dorje Shugden as the principal protector of the Gelugs, so I am wondering if you have do through research before you said those things. And there was a huge Dorje Shugden statue in Ganden monastery prior to the ban. This means that Dorje Shugden was well established in Ganden, Sera and Drepung prior to the ban and again, your points do not hold.

Just because the other traditions do not practice or are not fond of Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama banned it, it does not mean that Gelugs who choose to follow their Lamas are wrong.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

HHDL banned Dhogyal for the welfare of the greater many. After much observation, investigation, consulting various teachers/monks/laity decided it would be less harmful for individual practice and the greater whole of Tibetan Buddhism to stop the practice of this one Dhogyal. He spoke for the greater good. What other motivation can he possibly have? What other benefits is there for him?

If you are truly Gelug, then you may adopt the practice of Kalarupa. If Kalarupa is dead or ineffective, then you may search for other protectors. Otherwise if you have Kalarupa, why is there a need to rely on Dhogyal?  None of the great seats of learning such as in Sakya or Gelug (Ganden, Sera, Depung) have installed Dhogyal as their principal protector, so why start now. This itself says so much.

Since Tsongkapa relied on Kalarupa as his protector and Kalarupa suited Tsongkapa, then we would be wise to follow suit.

Since followers of Tsongkapa follow the same philosophical tenants as he did, same yidams (Guyasamaja, Cakrasambara, Yamentaka and Kakachakra), same vinaya code, then why not also follow Tsongkapa's protector which is Kalarupa. Why do followers of Gelug follow everything as Tsongkapa did to reach his enlightenment and understanding EXCEPT his protector?

If you are a Tsongkapa follower then follow Tsongkapa's practice completely. Be a clean and thorough Gelug.

Dorje Shugden existed after Tsongkhapa's time. So your arguments do not make sense. It is not easy for laypeople to make a connection to an enlightened Dharmapala as we have much obscuration. 

the 11th Dalai Lama installed Dorje Shugden as the principal protector of the Gelugs, so I am wondering if you have do through research before you said those things. And there was a huge Dorje Shugden statue in Ganden monastery prior to the ban. This means that Dorje Shugden was well established in Ganden, Sera and Drepung prior to the ban and again, your points do not hold.

Just because the other traditions do not practice or are not fond of Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama banned it, it does not mean that Gelugs who choose to follow their Lamas are wrong.

That is EXACTLY my point. Dhogyal came AFTER TSONGKAPA. Tsongkapa never checked Dhogyal out. Dhoygal does not have Tsongkapa's seal of approval.  But Tsongkapa checked out Kalarupa and appointed him the supreme protector of the Gelug School of Buddhism. Tsongkapa among all the protecotrs picked Kalarupa as the one who can preserve his teachings and lineage. Kalarupa's lineage extends to the masters/monasteries of India. He is authentic. Dhogyal is a dead monk's spirit. Kalarupa is Yamantaka who is Manjugosha. No one else has the authority to override the instructions of Tsongkapa himself. For Gelugs, whatever Tsongkapa instituted should be the final word.

Even here in Dharamsala, when you go to the private Monastery of HHDL (Namgayl Monastery), the protector chapel's main image is a large mask of Kalarupa. Kalarupa pujas are done daily by the Namgyal monks. People of all sects of Tibetan Buddhism makes offerings and ask them to pour tea to Kalarupa daily.

[Zach]

Actually the practice of Dorje Shugden came directly from Tsongkhapa in Tushita. So Tsongkhapa certainly approves.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Actually the practice of Dorje Shugden came directly from Tsongkhapa in Tushita. So Tsongkhapa certainly approves.

If that is the case, great. It might be approved by Tsongkapa that Dhogyal is so and so,  but not as the principal protector of Gelug as Kalarupa is. Please prove that Tsongkapa approved. Show us the texts and sources please. Thank you.

[Lineageholder]

Actually the practice of Dorje Shugden came directly from Tsongkhapa in Tushita. So Tsongkhapa certainly approves.

If that is the case, great. It might be approved by Tsongkapa that Dhogyal is so and so,  but not as the principal protector of Gelug as Kalarupa is. Please prove that Tsongkapa approved. Show us the texts and sources please. Thank you.

Please show us that Je Tsongkhapa disapproves.  Je Pabongkhapa and Trijang Rinpoche are regarded as emanations of Je Tsongkhapa, so I think we can say that Tsongkhapa approves of Dorje Shugden as the principal protector of the Gedan tradition.  Times change and just because Kalarupa was the protector who was most suitable to protect Je Tsongkhapa's tradition at that time doesn't mean that he is now.  The karma of living beings in this age is such that a different protector who is still an emanation of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri is required because the Gedan Tradition is a living, breathing tradition and it is evolving.  Those who do not evolve along with it will not be pure Gelugpas, I'm afraid, especially when they fail to trust the Lineage holders.

Kalarupa and Dorje Shugden have the same nature and function but Dorje Shugden is more able to help now.