The Dalai Lama Strikes Back! (sort of)

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Well, while the book might be crap, and therefore it would seem sensible to wipe out the crap before it hits the public fan, I think there is a rather problematic tendency at work here: Avoidance of crap.

All Buddhist traditions and organizations operating in the West seem to do this. They seek to isolate themselves from all crap. They cannot handle any crap. They avoid the crap. This is utterly harmful tendency, and will lead into Buddhist Institutions isolating and fossilizing themselves. This tendency seems to come from Asian Buddhism, it must be added. The outcome of this is that Organized Buddhism will become fossilized, irrelevant and meaningless, as can be observed from Asian countries. Dead formalism is the future of all the existing Traditions, if this tendency is not countered in time.

Just look at the various issues raging in the Buddhist World. Sex scandals of many Tibetan High Lamas, Karmapa-issue, Diamonway-issues, FWBO-antics, Zen-lineality-issues, Soka Gakkai Pure Land issue, and whatever. There seems to be a general unease with handling these things, as they seem to be just crap and crappy issues. If there is a troubling issue, when have you seen the disputing parties share a space and admit that they do not agree? To even agree on the disagreement, and accepting the opposing points of view, without the other becoming "the other"? When have two practitioners continued to treat each other as practitioners while simply agreeing that there are some deep issues and rifts between, and then nevertheless continued to practice together? Whenever crap comes, people avoid it all, by distancing themselves from the other party, or throwing the other party away. There is no dialogue there, only two monologues shouted with megaphones over the fence, for a fence there is, never a shared space - sometimes even literally, as we know. Then "our party" is clean, and over the fence there is just dirt, crap, faults, and confusion. No need to talk after that, is there. This is the current situation of Buddhism. We all isolate ourselves into our own little compartments.

Because we Buddhists cannot live with crap, we are crap ourselves.

[Middleway]

Don't agree with that. There's no reasonable dispute to be had here, we've tried, are trying - crap abounds! Slander laws exist for a reason, yes they can be mis-used, but there's a time & place. I think we've found it here.

[emptymountains]

I may not know much about UK slander/libel laws, but if you're writing a book and you've got the facts to back it up, why back out now? Surely Mr. Beesley thought long and hard about the NKT's possible legal response, or had it not crossed his mind before he sought out a publisher and started advertising the book's release on cult-watch websites? If there were slander/libel issues, wouldn't Arena Books as the publisher have been the first one to turn it down?

[Dharmapal]

Oxford University Press turned the book down as it had no sources etc. Other publishers may also have turned it down, I don't know how many Gary Beesley approached. Arena are so-called "self publishers", which means that Gary Beesley was paying them to publish the book, not the other way around. Self publishers are not stringent when it comes to checking the manuscripts, they'll publish anything on the whole. There were very scant sources given in the manuscript and the basic premise, that the NKT are in bed with the Chinese, was deeply flawed.

[godi]

Has anybody seen more from the book than the Table of content ?

[godi]

This forum is degenerating 

[Lineageholder]

This forum is degenerating 

How so?

[godi]

Hi Lhakpa Gyaltshen,
you deleted the message which was the reason for me saying that this forum is degenerating.
Thank you

I think, the way you write in this forum is not apropriate for Dorje Shugden followers.

I feel sad, that this forum is degenerating. I am sure that it is one of the main source for people investigating on the Dorje Shugden issue.

[Midakpa]

Can we see Godi's deleted message please? If there is no freedom of speech here, people will leave. I noticed many have already.

[Midakpa]

I read Lhakpa Gyaltshen's post a moment ago. Now it's gone. What is happening? Anyway, I didn't understand a word of it. One needs to be very patient on this forum. Very good training for practising Buddhists.

[a friend]

There´s no Godi´s message deleted. It´s Thom´s, self deleted.
Nothing new. Our friend does that, this has nothing to do with freedom of speech being threatened. There are times when he prefers to erase what he wrote.
Please, let's not make a big thing from something that is just an established routine.

It´s true that many people are falling silent. Maybe some are just getting tired of talking about such an unfortunate issue as the one created by the Dalai Lama.

[a friend]

Trinley Kelsang, my friend, any Tibetan military resistance was condemned by the population numbers. Not to forget the lack of preparation, except for the guerrillas trained by the CIA. A handful of people. Do you remember the numbers of the Chinese population? Had it not been for the USA ending that guerrilla program, the Tibetans might´ve been erased from the map of Tibet.

The sad thing is rather what you point out: that marxism wiped out religion, and not only Buddhism, from the Iron Curtain in Europe to the confines of Asia. But it still is somehow fashionable to proclaim oneself to be a Marxist. It does not dammage anybody´s reputation. Religion? I don´t think religion has been very important in this issue. Rather, it seems to have been sacrificed. Probably, as you say, to the institution of the DL.

The other sad thing is the meaningful role that the Tibetan freedom fighters played in the Dalai Lama´s escape. Of course he knows that they were Protector´s devotees, for the most part. His lack of gratitude towards those who sacrificed their lives for him has been among the most unfortunate part of his actions.

Unfortunate, yes, but probably politically motivated. Don´t forget that his second great wave of attacks against the Dorje Shugden practitioners came right after his brother Norbu, a practitioner himself, had started his March for Independence, toward the end of 1995, in complete opposition to the Dalai Lama who had already forsaken Tibetan independence.
We tend here to talk much from a religious point of view. But it´s important to look into the political events behind the ban if we really wish to understand it.

[Midakpa]

All right, I understand the necessity to self-delete. I do that sometimes.

I think it is sad that Gary Beasley had to withdraw his book. The NKT should not have felt threatened by it. At least let it be published and see what the author says. How do you know it's crap before you read it? Because the other person does not belong to your camp?

And why is there now an "Asian Buddhism" and a "western Buddhism"? Buddhism is Buddhism! Who is being sectarian now?

[Middleway]

That's easy to say, but what about all the people who lose faith because of such writings? I'm on record here saying the Catholics shot themselves in the foot covering up the child abuse scandal, but that had a valid basis of i'mputation. The NKT kept quiet for ten years about all the crap that was thrown at it. Enough's enough - people's spiritual paths are being needlessly damaged through the strong encouragement of doubts tending away from the truth & plain old deluded doubt. Having something in print lends it some credibility so this book would have had extra power to hurt people. Protecting your reputation is not necessarily a worldly concern (Geshe Kelsang has been pretty fearless in putting his reputation on the line repeatedly to protect the lineage), it can be done without attachment in order to benefit others. How do we know the book was tripe? The guy's got form, lots of it. & the Amazon write up was kind of revealing in that regard. I believe the production of that book would have brought no benefit & much harm. There will be critical books printed in the future about the NKT, but out right insanely biased lies have no value, especially now. Is that a value judgement? Yup. One the NKT is confident the courts would agree with. Should anyone be allowed to print absolutely anything they want in the name of free speech? English libel law doesn't think so & neither do I.

Anyway, that's all I'm going to say on the matter. I hope this post sounds reasonable, I might not agree with all the views here but at least we can have a reasonable discussion. No need to call the lawyers

[godi]

Hi,
has anybody seen more from the book than the Table of content or does anybody know someone else who has seen more than the TOC ?

The reason for my question is that I can not really believe that someone is writing a book for weeks and weeks and after hundreds of hours of work then just stopps publisihing the book.