DS brochure

[DSFriend]

Vajrayogini's image was kept secret from non-initiates till recently. Now, the totally naked, fearless, triumphant Queen whose time has come to liberate beings who are trapped in the chains of desires are out in the open! Thangkas of her image has been unveiled. Posters and images are widely spread all over the world to plant the seed of enlightenment for ALL. And I'm sure a few of us in here has her little image in the back pocket of our wallets!

Has the time come for Dorje Shugden to be "unveiled" and ushered in as the next main protector after Nechung? Has Dorje Shugden's time come to bless and plant seeds of enlightenment for the many who may not make it in this precious human form until Maitreya comes? I HOPE SO!

Recently, many have written in that they are thankful to have received the brochures and they are HERE in this website. I rejoice so much with every new visitor and the comments they left behind. I hope very much that they will continue to come back and I am sure we have more people who visited but didn't leave any comments. I salute the Admin of this website and the years of content in this forum contributed by the many kind senior practitioners.

I can't help but feel the urgency out of compassion from TK...not only wishing, praying and having contributed so much to this forum, TK walks the talk...while many postings in this thread has been but criticize the design, the content, that it's cheap etc. The brochures DID touched someone's life. There are new people here because of having received the brochures which someone handed out!

Debate is highly encouraged in this forum. If you do not agree with how the brochure is being used, do share how and what could work instead. There are many keen and sincere people who wish to benefit others and I'm sure will welcome more ideas.

with sincerity
DSFriend

[iloveds]

Take example of the Bamiyan Buddha statue in Afghanistan. The people who built it had benefitted a lot of people, the people who saw and worshipped the Bamiyan Buddha had collected a lot of merits, but for the same statue, the people who destroyed it also collected a lot of bad karma.

The same logic also applies to this DS brochure, it may benefit some who found the DS brochure/card useful and eventually do the practice because of the borchure/card, thus collecting merits and gaining attainments, likewise there are also people who would throw it away thus collecting some bad karma.

So only if you think the Bamiyan statue should not be built in the first place, then you can criticize the making and spreading of the DS brochure. Otherwise you are practising double-standard.

I don't think the example is quite the same, the people who destroyed the statue set the motivation to destroy based on their wrong view and then they plotted the plan, acted out the plan, and finally rejoiced in the result of the plan. In this sense I don't think a person would fit under the same banner, yes there is karma, but then there is also the karma to even here or see dharma even if its right under your nose.

So i don't think it will be quite that heavy the karma because not all criteria are there to fit the serious downfalls.

iloveds

[diamond girl]

How kind of the webmaster to make this site so accessible and rich with updated unbiased info for ds fans and newbies. TK’s efforts in spreading DS’s protecting and wishfulling powers to everyone is inspiring.
I believe that if one’s motivation, like TK’s is sincere and for the benefit of others , it does not matter if the methods used may not be ideal. Which method is anyway? Until someone comes up with a better one, it’s the best at the moment.

I agree that the guiding intention, which is to spread the knowledge of DS and subsequently the practice, is key behind this brochure. I feel that everyone has made points worth thinking about. I picked up on this point of "methods" used to spread DS with these brochures. Hey, if it works to reach the main intention, why get all worked up on technicalities. Take the same energy to DO something - change the color, add languages, re-phrase the worldly needs to more profound needs, etc.

Talking about methods, I much prefer receiving a brochure to taking it our on street protests, which by the way gave me an imprint that Buddhists are violent. Of course, my prior imprints that Buddhists are compassionate is stronger. Another method which I find effective (although it may not have the original intent, or was it?) is HH Dalai Lama's ban of Dorje Shugden's practice. The ban itself is keeping the practice more alive than ever. Come on, look at the fever on this website!

All said, I salute the webmaster behind this website and most of all, my deepest respect to TK for distributing the brochures with his wide network of friends around the world. As for cultures, it does not matter where, everyone seeks peace and for many peace comes after they handle their "worldly" needs, so be it that they will be attracted to the brochures for such initial shallow needs. May they just begin exploring and find the deeper meaning of being detached from their unavoidable realities of "worldly" needs and find peace still amidst overcoming life's challenges.

[LosangKhyentse]

Hopefuly, this "brochure" is going to remain a far-eastern thing.

I sincerly hope this is not the kind of Dharma we are trying to sow in the West : the "money-lucky" type!

In Libertation, Pabongkha always puts down this kind of worldly dharma. And compares it to "forcing a King to sweep off the floor" (I don't remember which page). In the present case, this sentence is to be read litteraly!

I sincerly hope westerners will be more philosophically oriented and not stain the gelugpa Dharma with a "luck and wealth" mentality.

All the teachings I've received from high lamas have been clear on this, and I'm sure its the same for you....

Excuse me??? Westerners?? You hope the Westerners will be more philosophically orientated? What the Easterners are not? What are you saying??  Is this some sort of racial thing now?? Or West? Or Westerners??  I sincerely hope not. The lamas, lam rim, Dorje Shugden, Gelug, Pabongka Rinpoche, high lamas ALL COME FROM THE EAST .....IT IS ALL AN EASTERN THING. EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS IS AN EASTERN THING. With the East comes Good and some bad. Like in the West got both. Some will be philosophically inclined and some not, just like anywhere in the world..it is NOT AN EASTERN THING TO WANT MONEY AND LUCK.

20-30 Years ago all of Buddhism was considered an Eastern thing or an Eastern Trip too foreign or inferior for Westerners.

Western countries are not out of Samsara and not free of greed or materialism.

Please be careful of the racial connotations that is appearing here. You hope this 'MONEY LUCK TYPE' of dharma stays in the East?  Westerners need no help to be just as greedy as anyone else in the world. Colonialism all came from greed, materialism and wanting wealth and that is from Westerners. The East does not need to import what the West has been doing 'very well' since the dawn of greed. Westerners are NOT SUPERIOR TO EASTERNERS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM. WESTERNERS MANIFEST THEIR GREED AND MATERIALISM IN MANY OTHER WAYS UNIQUE TO THEM. BE CAREFUL PLEASE.

Again PLEASE let 's not make this a racially biased view to win an argument.

Tk

[Admin]

Dear everyone,

Please STOP all racially discriminatory remarks now in your discussions.

Admin

[thor]

Hopefuly, this "brochure" is going to remain a far-eastern thing.

I sincerly hope this is not the kind of Dharma we are trying to sow in the West : the "money-lucky" type!

In Libertation, Pabongkha always puts down this kind of worldly dharma. And compares it to "forcing a King to sweep off the floor" (I don't remember which page). In the present case, this sentence is to be read litteraly!

I sincerly hope westerners will be more philosophically oriented and not stain the gelugpa Dharma with a "luck and wealth" mentality.

All the teachings I've received from high lamas have been clear on this, and I'm sure its the same for you....

We are all entitled to our opinions but putting a racial slant on things is a cheap shot that is frowned upon, at least where I come from. The colour card is the last thing that should be used in a BUDDHIST forum. Who ever heard of a great divide between western buddhists and eastern buddhists? We're all Buddhist!

Is materialistic greed a bigger failing than a superiority complex? Which is a sign of the bigger ego?

Why not spread Buddhism in the most effective way for the region it is in? If skilful masters can use our desires to hook us in and turn us onto the path, then this "materialistic" brochure design is applying the same principles to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden FOR THOSE WHO ARE ATTRACTED TO MATERIALISM.

The so called "good luck dharma" can be transformed into faith in a wealth god. Propitiating a wealth god, who is in actuality a Buddha, generates merit. Plants seeds. Creates a connection. At a later point, those Dharma seeds will fruition so that real dharma may be implanted. So what if the initial attraction is materialism? The end result is what we are all striving for.

Instead of criticising the initiatives of the webmaster, channel that effort into improving the idea and making it better. A range of flyer designs to suit all races and cultures!

[dsnowlion]

It leaves me feeling uncomfortable.  I mean, 'free card inside' - like a plastic toy in a cereal packet.  Landing on the floor along with the junk mail & immediately filed under 'religious crazies' by 99.9% of people who receive it as an unsolicited item.

I completely agree with Middleway! This is really a sorry initiative.

Dorje Shugden, the highest most secret and inconceavable object of knowledge in Samsara and Nirvana is now reduced to a crakerjack handout! 

It's cheap...

Dear Alexis
I agree with you about the nature of Dorje Shugden. Because of his nature, how can he be reduced to a crakerjack handout as you perceived. The way I view it, even if he is in a "free card" and pops out from a crakerjack box, people will still get blessings. And this is what I rejoice in that people are getting the brochures and yes, enlightened image for "free".

best wishes always
DSFriend

It is amazing and I can't believe what I am reading... that even when something good, given to us literally on the plate at no cost to us -------FREE------ We don't have to think it (the idea), make it (design and produce it), sweat it (stick the card in it), or pay for it (cost of printing) yet we can complain... to top it off we use words that splits and separates people even more.

I sincerly hope westerners will be more philosophically oriented and not stain the gelugpa Dharma with a "luck and wealth" mentality.

And may I ask What exactly are you implying here??? Far East, Middle, Center East... it all sounds pretty discriminating in any way.

Ultimately what is the motivation here??? Is it to promote our beloved unbiased (EAST or WEST, Black or White) Lord Dorje Shugden or to debate about which brochure colour fits the culture/race/background of my country/neighbour heck why don't we just take a consensus and create one that actually makes everyone happy. But I guess by the time we figure that one out, Dorje Shugden would probably be out in the open already.

I am sorry for being so EMO... I happen to be married to an EASTERN "luck and wealth" mentality kinda of guy and guess what he is a Dorje Shugden practitioner too and for your info he is also quite philosophical too. Besides, Chinese philosophy, culture, arts and science I believe is one of the oldest besides Hinduism, which is EASTERN culture also and the oldest in the world but really lets not go there.

But seriously folks like what TK says, and I cannot agree more, what is the motivation ultimately? Look if we can't do it, rejoice and don't slam down others who can. You would be collecting the same no sweat merits too if you rejoice. That's what Buddha says no? And anyways by all means, the more, the better I would say! Bring on the different colours, concept, creativity, ideas brochures, leaflets, books etc about our wonderful protector in many different languages the more, the better

Cos at the end of the day WE WANT TO PROMOTE DORJE SHUGDEN TO THE WORLD - The End.

[LosangKhyentse]

Admin, my post have nothing to do with discrimination, contrary to what TK seem to imply. I am only establishing a clear distinction between different approaches to buddhism.


TK,

If you had paused to take a breath, you would have noticed I said "far-eastern" not eastern.

Moreover, this sort or "lucky-money" type of arguments is mostly used when dharma is introduced to far-eastern "practitionners". You can find it almost everywhere buddhism is present in the far-east. Tsem tulku uses that money argument a lot in his videos. For example, I remember him explaining the yellow of Tsongkhapa's hat to means: « money, money, money... ». The "luck" thing is a chinese traditionnal fixation, not a western one.

This brochure follows in this path of presenting Dorje Shugden as a "lucky-wealth god" is obviously directed, in its basic concept, toward han-malasian-singapourean-etc. audience. It's not aiming at western conceptual representations. Read what's written on the "brochure" and try to sell that as buddhism to a westerner. Buddhism in the west is usually associated with detachment and renunciation, not "lucky-wealth spirits".

I'll end it here for now.

Is that the pervasive thought in Quebec, Canada?

TK

[iloveds]

Its comments like Alexis's that show the measure of a mans practice. Very glad he has the guts to put his ego out in the open for all to see.

Far Eastern? please... how far east do we go before we end up in the west?
Putting down practitioners in the east? Putting western practitioners on a pedestal?

What is this guy on? If i were to redesign the brochure for the west then there would be lots of flesh and hedonism on the brochure and DS would be your ticket to getting more of this, why? because that would be the hook for the western mentality, or lost souls so to speak.

You only need to take a stroll down your countries high streets, or frequent a few night clubs to see the state of a society. It doesn't matter what culture your in, the rich want to stay or become richer, and the poor want what they don't have.

And in all of these environments what is missing is our beloved Protector and the Dharma.

Alexis if you can't help with this goal, then whats your point of posting here?

[LosangKhyentse]

Admin, my post have nothing to do with discrimination, contrary to what TK seem to imply. I am only establishing a clear distinction between different approaches to buddhism.

You are establishing a clear distinction between the different approaches to Buddhism. Well so was I and that is why I am distributing the brochures admin made available for all of us. But be careful, you have mentioned clearly that the West is more philosophically inclined and not into the money luck thing?? Why do rabbit's foot sell so well in the West then?? What Westerner doesn't pray to god for money, good luck, good relationship, good business, and the whole nine yards if they are 'religiously' inclined that is?

And you mentioned if I had paused to take a breath that you said Far East and not East. So if it is Far East, then it is OK FOR YOU TO DEGRADE by putting them down comparing them to the Western 'superior' philosophical approach??  Does that make sense at all.

What does His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche have to do with any of this??? His description of Yellow hat justifies your racially prejudiced superior approach of dharma?? Name me one Western Mahasidda.

I was not implying anything. I read clearly what you have wrote against FAR EASTERNERS.

With all due respect to you, I fully resent what you have said and your racially prejudiced tones. We are talking about a brochure...PLEASE SINCERELY wish me luck and wish me well for what I am doing and stop finding fault or reason to criticize every little thing and drag on and on. If I want to pass out brochures and that is my way to spread Dorje Shugden to the 'inferior' Far Eastern mentality, then so be it. You do not need to drag in the superior Western approach to put me down or the Far East.  You do not need to wish this method STAYS IN THE FAR EAST. Greed is everywhere.


TK

[LosangKhyentse]

I am married to a Tibetan. Don't try to portray me into something I am not.

I"ll say it one last time:  "lucky-money" type of arguments only works in the far-east because the "lucky" thing is a traditional concept for them. However, it leaves most westerners interested in buddhism indifferent, if not bewildered because we have this "funny idea" that buddhism is about renunciation.

I wonder what Pabongkha Dorjechang would have said seeing this brochure. I quite sure of what Kyabje Dagom Dorjechang would have said! He didn't really have patience for this sort of "dharma".

Maybe I"m too "old school" for this website.

Alexis if you can't help with this goal, then whats your point of posting here?

Are you formally requesting someone who doesn't share your entusiam about this brochure to leave this forum?

Being married to a Tibetan doesn't make you an expert on the Far East. Or any expert on the East.

As for formally leaving the forum, that is your choice. No one asked you to leave.

You don't agree with the brochure, then post once and be done with it. You don't have to drag on and on and degrade me, the Far East, Far Eastern Mentality and it's methods. You do not need to insinuate that it would never work in the West because it is more superior due to the philosophical approach. Ever hear of Confucious? You would be surprised.

It doesn't work for you, that is fine. Please remember, it is JUST A BROCHURE. I am not reproducing bullets with Dorje Shugden mantras on them and shooting people to get the message across.

TK

[LosangKhyentse]

Its comments like Alexis's that show the measure of a mans practice. Very glad he has the guts to put his ego out in the open for all to see.

Far Eastern? please... how far east do we go before we end up in the west?
Putting down practitioners in the east? Putting western practitioners on a pedestal?

What is this guy on? If i were to redesign the brochure for the west then there would be lots of flesh and hedonism on the brochure and DS would be your ticket to getting more of this, why? because that would be the hook for the western mentality, or lost souls so to speak.

You only need to take a stroll down your countries high streets, or frequent a few night clubs to see the state of a society. It doesn't matter what culture your in, the rich want to stay or become richer, and the poor want what they don't have.

And in all of these environments what is missing is our beloved Protector and the Dharma.

Alexis if you can't help with this goal, then whats your point of posting here?

I don't want to gang up on anyone here, but the above is very well said. Thank you very much.

TK

[DSFriend]

Admin, my post have nothing to do with discrimination, contrary to what TK seem to imply. I am only establishing a clear distinction between different approaches to buddhism.


TK,

If you had paused to take a breath, you would have noticed I said "far-eastern" not eastern.

Moreover, this sort or "lucky-money" type of arguments is mostly used when dharma is introduced to far-eastern "practitionners". You can find it almost everywhere buddhism is present in the far-east. Tsem tulku uses that money argument a lot in his videos. For example, I remember him explaining the yellow of Tsongkhapa's hat to means: « money, money, money... ». The "luck" thing is a chinese traditionnal fixation, not a western one.

This brochure follows in this path of presenting Dorje Shugden as a "lucky-wealth god" is obviously directed, in its basic concept, toward han-malasian-singapourean-etc. audience. It's not aiming at western conceptual representations. Read what's written on the "brochure" and try to sell that as buddhism to a westerner. Buddhism in the west is usually associated with detachment and renunciation, not "lucky-wealth spirits".

I'll end it here for now.

Alexis
We do have much "freedom" to share our thoughts in this forum and members in here have been mutually respectful of each others' differences in opinions. This brochure was made ready for anyone who wish to use it to benefit others but your opinions have been only criticisms and now with racist slants, and I hope not moving towards Lama bashing. Please STOP as many have also voiced out regarding your racist remarks. This is not acceptable and will not be tolerated.

DSFriend

[Vajraprotector]

Hopefuly, this "brochure" is going to remain a far-eastern thing.

I sincerly hope this is not the kind of Dharma we are trying to sow in the West : the "money-lucky" type!

In Libertation, Pabongkha always puts down this kind of worldly dharma. And compares it to "forcing a King to sweep off the floor" (I don't remember which page). In the present case, this sentence is to be read litteraly!

I sincerly hope westerners will be more philosophically oriented and not stain the gelugpa Dharma with a "luck and wealth" mentality.

All the teachings I've received from high lamas have been clear on this, and I'm sure its the same for you....

Dear Alexis,
If you want to bring up your opinion of "money-lucky Dharma" in the East, it is also possible for people to quote Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche's work and talk about "fake Dharma" of spiritual materialism that is very prevalent in the West, the topic of Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche's talk given while opening the Karma Dzong meditation center in Boulder, Colorado.

Also, I request you to not put down anyone, in this case far-eastern people, although quite a few of them might have that kind of mentality that's more receptive to "money-lucky". Bear in mind that far-eastern culture also gave birth to Taoism, Confucianism, and Sun Tzu's The Art of War.

I agree with TK that Westerners are also greedy. The many Commonwealth countries stand as proof to colonialism that was a culture of greed, materialism and wanting wealth by TAKING FROM OTHERS.

The fact is PEOPLE are greedy, and they can be of any race, cultural background or socioeconomical background, as our "poisons" can manifest in many ways.

I can see your sincere wish that the gelugpa Dharma will not be polluted, but if Dharma practitioners talk in such a way that put other people down, and disagree with other methods that don't suit their imputation of  "proper Dharma" (if there is such a thing), wouldn't that destroy the Dharma more?

Also, if there is "proper Dharma", a good reminder to not grasp onto that is the existence of Mahasiddhas who exist to break our concept of how proper Dharma masters should behave, and how Dharma should be taught. Dharma can be taught & propegated in many ways through different methods to suit the minds of different inclinations. What if "money-lucky Dharma" can bring more sentient beings to connect with Buddhadharma, isn't that better to come in and learn more to correct their "wrong view" than not being connected at all?

[LosangKhyentse]

TK, contrary to what you imply, I never made a racist remark. You are red with anger and you are not thinking clearly. This is what I said:

I sincerly hope westerners will be more philosophically oriented and not stain the gelugpa Dharma with a "luck and wealth" mentality.

I also pointed out that the "luck and wealth" approach to buddhism is mostly found in the far-east, as this "brochure" makes evident, it's clearly not intended for a western audience.

I said this because I have never ever met one westerner who became interested to buddhism for "luck and wealth".  And I was wishing it stayed that way!

I severly condemn (but hey, who I am I?) the lowering of Dorje Shugden to "luck and wealth" god in order to harvest new practitionners, because it affects all of gelug Dharma, not just the new guys. It's a form of Dharma degeneration that affects the whole tradition.

Now please all stop making ad hominem attacks, it only show a lack of intellectual rigour.

I am not red with anger. Perhaps you are.  I am in shock that you can write such things. Total Shock. You have not seen me angry. It is very rare that I do get angry over a brochure.

tk