DS brochure

[LosangKhyentse]

TK, contrary to what you imply, I never made a racist remark (or put down anyone). You are red with anger and you are not thinking clearly. This is what I said:

I sincerly hope westerners will be more philosophically oriented and not stain the gelugpa Dharma with a "luck and wealth" mentality.

I also pointed out that the "luck and wealth" approach to sell buddhism is mostly found in the far-east, as this "brochure" and many far-eastern buddhist websites makes evident, it's clearly not intended for a western audience.

I said this because I have never ever met one westerner who became interested to buddhism for "luck and wealth".  And I was wishing it stayed that way!

I severly condemn (but hey, who I am I?) the lowering of Dorje Shugden to "luck and wealth" god in order to harvest new practitionners, because it affects all of gelug Dharma, not just the new guys. It's a form of Dharma degeneration that affects the whole tradition.

Now please all stop making ad hominem attacks, it only show a lack of intellectual rigour.

I don't agree with you at all. I have met many westerners who are interested in dharma for many reasons including better business, better financial gains, better company returns, better stock dividends and pray for better financial resources to pay for alimony, buy a house, invest in something,etc etc. It is only many years later, they consider what Dharma is really for. They would openly ask would Tara, or Vaishravana help in this??? They have many times even approached Dorje Shugden in trance asking for methods to improve financial situations. I have seen many Europeans who sponsor pujas in Nepal for their business to get better and ask divination from various teachers as to what pujas to do to improve their businesses.

I am not lowering Dorje Shugden to anything. It is one of the 'services' he provides to practitioners if you read the kangsol text.

I am severely against you mentioning or even slightly insinuating the superiority of the Western approach to Buddhism as opposed to the Far Eastern. That is wrong. Completely wrong. My apologies to you.

Tk

[LosangKhyentse]

TK,

One final thing. I never sais westerners are superior, never! I was wishing they avoid the money mentality...it's not the same.

Your posts deformed my remarks.

However, it's true that I am implying that the "money-lucky" mentality is being used by some lamas working in the far-east to spread buddhism.

Of this, there are proofs all over the net (including in this website!)...and it's sad!

Next time you see this "money-lucky" argument being put foward by some lama, you think of me man, OK?

It is not sad at all. If some lamas are using the methods you mentioned and they have genuine motivation, then it is not sad at all.

It is sad that your old school one sided thinking and the direction it takes you now even surpass the lamas who work so hard for the dharma and I salute all of them who are in the Far East and everywhere in their skilfull compassionate manner that suits the mentality of their regions.

TK

[LosangKhyentse]

Alexis,

So even this website has become sad??? Please please please get a hold of your anger. Om Mani Peme Hung.

TK

[honeydakini]

I think that it would be worse to not have any connection to DS at all, than to connect to him via a superficial and "cheapened" way of money, relationships, business etc. I appreciate that this website are trying to find another method to reach out to people, instead of JUST talking and debating about whether it would be beneficial or not... I think you never know until you try.

I like what TK said about learning to accept the negative karma if the images are disrespected or destroyed but ALSO accepting the merit of all those people that you can benefit. In the long run, if we could have affected say 1000 people by these brochures, and we don't because we're spending more time debating on here, we also accept that negative karma of all those people. It's a "risk" but we don't NOT do this because we're just worried about the negative karma we might accrue for ourselves. We do it because of the potential lives it could help and people we could connect to the Three Jewels through this gateway. Isn't that a "risk" we should all be willing to take for the sake of benefiting even one person?

[DSFriend]

I am married to a Tibetan. Don't try to portray me into something I am not.

What has being married to a Tibetan got to do with what's being discussed. Nobody is portraying you into anything except your own thoughts and speech.

I"ll say it one last time:  "lucky-money" type of arguments only works in the far-east because the "lucky" thing is a traditional concept for them. However, it leaves most westerners interested in buddhism indifferent, if not bewildered because we have this "funny idea" that buddhism is about renunciation.

I wonder what Pabongkha Dorjechang would have said seeing this brochure. I quite sure of what Kyabje Dagom Dorjechang would have said! He didn't really have patience for this sort of "dharma".

Maybe I"m too "old school" for this website.

TK brought up about WSS's demonstrations. We all know that it was championed from the west and in many occasions the ordained persons acted in "un-monkly" ways. It was justified in the name that these people were speaking out for those who don't have a voice. There were pros and cons which came about from that initiative. How is it that you can feel too "old school" because of the brochure as compared to the unconventional ways which are prevalent in the West regarding spreading Buddhism?

We are talking about spreading Buddhism to people who not only NOT have a voice but do not have the 3 Jewels.

[godi]

TK asked to be productive and bring some positive ideas. OK, I try to put my 2 cents.

Another way to spread the Dharma as taught by Je Tsongkhapa and protected by Dorje shugden is to:
* run a Dharma Center
* organise meditation classes
* invite teachers for talks in your town
* make pubicity for these teachings (using holy pictures of JE Tsongkhapa, etc.)
* write to the newspaper for advertising these teachings
* go to the teachings and show a good example
* spend money for a Dharma Center
* help new people to enjoy the first meeting with the Dharma
* study dharma and put it into practice to become a qualified teacher oneself
* etc

There are hundreds of possibilities to spread pictures of Dorje Shugden as you can see.

TK I really enjoy your enthusiasm and your energy. I hope that some day I can get same inspiration for working for Dharma as you have.

I do not feel that Alexis' comments are negative. I understand that he just wants to explain why he is thinking that the broschure is not working in his country. (by the way I also think that it will not work in Germany as mentioned above). I am sorry this discussion is turning negative.

Dear Admin, could we maybe delete this thread and start it again. Now, all of us know the sensible points where we should pay attentioin to. OK?

Many thanks for all your hard work for spreading Dharma!!!

I am so happy that we got these great teachings here in the west from the great eastern (and far-eastern) masters ;-)

[LosangKhyentse]

TK asked to be productive and bring some positive ideas. OK, I try to put my 2 cents.

Another way to spread the Dharma as taught by Je Tsongkhapa and protected by Dorje shugden is to:
* run a Dharma Center
* organise meditation classes
* invite teachers for talks in your town
* make pubicity for these teachings (using holy pictures of JE Tsongkhapa, etc.)
* write to the newspaper for advertising these teachings
* go to the teachings and show a good example
* spend money for a Dharma Center
* help new people to enjoy the first meeting with the Dharma
* study dharma and put it into practice to become a qualified teacher oneself
* etc

There are hundreds of possibilities to spread pictures of Dorje Shugden as you can see.

Dear Godi,

Just for your information, I am already doing what you mentioned with Shar Gaden. I have already spent US $400,000 (Four Hundred Thousand) in the last two years for them directly. And have allocated a budget for them every month. I have sponsored and am sponsoring various Rinpoches of the Dorje Shugden lineage now directly for them to do their sacred works. I am sorry to sound so rude and a show off. I do not meant to sound that way at all. But you see, I use my resources mostly for the dharma and have been for years.

So I am spreading dharma in all the wonderful ways you have mentioned AND bringing the  brochures to many NOW. So I am very enthusiastic to spend my time, finances, life and ideas to spread Dorje Shugden's lineage as I have promised Dorje Shugden directly to him via a monk in trance. And I will do so for the rest of my life, and if I can inspire you, that would be great, until then rejoice for me and my brochure distribution please. Sorry it wouldn't work in Germany, but maybe a adaptation of it would. Maybe you can design, write and come up with a brochure that would work in Germany and submit a adaptation of this brochure to the Webmaster to post. Then many can download and use??  Then you'll have your brochure and the Far East will have theirs. All those who oppose the current beautiful brochure, please come up with another one that would suit your countries. Then why can't we have many types of brochures to download. Spend time on creating a new brochure to add to the current one instead of just words please.



TK

[DSFriend]

TK,

One final thing. I never sais westerners are superior, never! I was wishing they avoid the money mentality...it's not the same.

Through inferential logic, your statement here established that you agree Westerners do have money mentality. Well, having the "wealth luck spirit" remain in the far-east ain't going to help them avoid the money mentality. The brochure is specifically designed to hook in people with money mentality, who are troubled by spirits, who needs peace of mind and protection. Why don't we meet them where they are. Why don't we put them first before our own preferences and ways we are familiar with. Majority of the people do not know they need to renunciate and generate bodhichitta. Heck! If we have a bit more renunciation, this argument wouldn't have turned out this way with so much racial connotation. How many people are we going to reach by stuffing brochures of renunciation in their hands. Think!

DSFriend

[LosangKhyentse]

Nadia Wijaja says:

June 5, 2010 at 5:50 am
Thank you for the brosur. I travel alone always from Bandung to many cities due to my work and I now keep this card in my bag I feel very safe.


The above is from: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3556  Nadia doesn't sound like she's in it for the money. Beautiful. May Nadia be protected always.

TK

[LosangKhyentse]

All those who oppose the current beautiful brochure, please come up with another one that would suit your countries. Then why can't we have many types of brochures to download. Spend time on creating a new brochure to add to the current one instead of just words please. And submit your brochure to the webmaster.  Do something that you think would appeal in Western Countries. Perhaps another enthusiastic person would print out and distribute. 

WSS passed out many brochures, so it does work in the West.

TK

[LosangKhyentse]

Dhammasiri says:
May 20, 2010 at 6:46 pm

I’m a bit confused because I thought Buddhists took refuge in Buddha and I didn’t know they also worship spirits. I’m interested in learning more about Tibetan Buddhism but find this really strange. Can someone tell me how this type of Buddhism is different from shamanism? Is this something that all Buddhists do or is it just a Tibetan thing? I haven’t seen any references to it in Theravada teachings.

Pabongkha Rinpoche says praying for this life is not even Dharma! So exactly what are we spreading here with this brochure?

Answer: A degenerate spirit worship form of shamanism! Nothing more.

Sorry that I am woshipping the spirit Dorje Shugden. I thought however I pray to Him, since He is a Buddha, it will lead to the right path eventually.

Now you sound like TGIE. Please stop.

TK

[LosangKhyentse]

Dear Alexis,

Please write a nice, detailed email to the webmaster to remove the brochure. Maybe he/she will listen.

Solve your problem with the brochure from the top.

TK

[iloveds]

i wish alexis would get over it already, the arguments are weak and there are just too many arguments against those he/she puts forward to show that the brochure campaign is what it is... a tool to connect people to our Protector, and then onwards to the Dharma.

Skillful --- Yes.
Bad Karma --- based on motivation No.
Opportunity to develop --- Most definitely worldwide.

Simple teachings by the Buddha such as teachings made to suit the disciple, the environment, the time just isn't enough for this guy.

out of touch i feel, with a rigid perception of what Dharma is and is not.

sigh:(

[Vajraprotector]

Dhammasiri says:
May 20, 2010 at 6:46 pm

I’m a bit confused because I thought Buddhists took refuge in Buddha and I didn’t know they also worship spirits. I’m interested in learning more about Tibetan Buddhism but find this really strange. Can someone tell me how this type of Buddhism is different from shamanism? Is this something that all Buddhists do or is it just a Tibetan thing? I haven’t seen any references to it in Theravada teachings.

Pabongkha Rinpoche says praying for this life is not even Dharma! So exactly what are we spreading here with this brochure?

Answer: A degenerate spirit worship form of shamanism! Nothing more.

Dear Alexis,
If you really believe in the Buddha, then I am sure you will know that even a degenerate spirit worship form of shamanism can plant the seed of enlightenment in the beings that acted out of such 'spirit worship', because Dorje Shugden is an emanation of an enlightened being.

Since you seemed to like Pabongka Rinpoche's teachings, perhaps I can direct your attention to the teachings from
CLEARING THE MIND IN SEVEN POINT which Pabongka Rinpoche propagated. Central to this teaching was self-transformation, which was to catalyze the fundamental transformation of the mind from its alienated,
contaminated state to its original purity as a field of lucid awareness free of the taints of delusion and the five poisons.

In order to benefit deluded beings, we need to harness or use their contaminated state/ their taints of delusion/ their five poisons or attachments to lead them to the path to discover their original state of purity, because those are what they can relate with best - the level of their state of mind. Isn't that skillful means?

Pabongka Rinpoche mentioned re "praying for this life is not even Dharma". Dharma or not Dharma is defined by one's motivation, usually, except those actions done with or depending on the power of the holy object. In this case, Dorje Shugden is the holy object (a Buddha), so it is Dharma.

[iloveds]

I don't believe skillful means has a limit, why else would a vajrayana Lama use any means necessary to transform the mind.

You talk really big about very scholarly Dharma, but common get real, you attract what you put out. For you, its coming across as so pure, so knowledgeable, so frigid. Let loose man, why the hang ups about how things should be? That seems to be your attachment, quite strongly i feel.O

This is like the story about passing a diamond to a person who doesn't know the value of it, of course they will not be interested in it and will inevitably toss it out.

Much like your likening "the Holder of All Secrets" into a "lucky laughing Buddha"...

Isn't the fundamental of Buddhism, and I mean all schools of Buddhism that everything is impermanent.

Even "The Laughing Buddha" can become "The Holder of All Secrets" and vice versa. What you see as cheap tricks to garner disciples and lower the Dharma, on the other side of the coin can raise the minds of the people it attracts to level you seem to think people should think the Dharma should be.

Really its too much, and a turn off to hear the holier than thou speech from a Buddhist.

Hook them in man!