Author Topic: DS brochure  (Read 238580 times)

DSFriend

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #90 on: June 06, 2010, 03:56:12 AM »
Quote
Dhammasiri says:
May 20, 2010 at 6:46 pm

I’m a bit confused because I thought Buddhists took refuge in Buddha and I didn’t know they also worship spirits. I’m interested in learning more about Tibetan Buddhism but find this really strange. Can someone tell me how this type of Buddhism is different from shamanism? Is this something that all Buddhists do or is it just a Tibetan thing? I haven’t seen any references to it in Theravada teachings.

Pabongkha Rinpoche says praying for this life (ex: wealth) is not even Dharma! So exactly what are we spreading here with this brochure?

Answer: A degenerate spirit worship form of shamanism! Nothing more.

Certainly not dharma...

Alexis
you started out having a strong stand that this brochure initiative is reducing Dorje Shugden to a crakerjack cheap thing. Now are you saying your view of Dorje Shugden is a degenerate spirit worship form of shamanism? Am I the only one reading this as contradictory?

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WisdomBeing

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #91 on: June 06, 2010, 04:20:25 AM »
Alexis,

I think that you have a certain view of how Dorje Shugden should be spread - and as there are 84,000 ways to spread Dharma, I believe there are 84,000 ways to spread Dorje Shugden too. No single way will appeal to everyone - whether they come from east, west or in between. i don't know anything about Canada but even in the UK, something which will appeal to Londoners may not appeal to those from the Midlands or East Anglia etc. Even in London alone, there will be many different kinds of people from all walks of life and different backgrounds and different methods will appeal to different people.

All i can comment on is that in London, even though it is in the West, there is a very strong belief in 'luck'. I say this confidently because of the interest in Feng Shui, which is a relatively new phenomenon (compared to Buddhism) and that is focused purely on Luck and Wealth! Feng Shui is so well accepted that book stores can have a section specially for Feng Shui, so it shows that Westerners (or at least in London anyway), people are interested in ways to be wealthy and lucky. This was why I was happy to see the brochures because i could see that those Londoners who would not be attracted to renunciation and holy meditation would be initially attracted to Dorje Shugden as a being that can bring them what they want. Honestly, if westerners really are so philosophical, they would mostly be Buddhists! Sad to say, i don't see it in London.

This brochure would definitely NOT appeal to all and i'm sure that whatever brochures we come up with will NOT appeal to all. Even when Buddha Shakyamuni taught, he did not appeal to all. We just do what we can to whoever would be interested.

I read that just by seeing a Buddha image, people would get the karmic imprint for the future. Even those who destroyed the Buddha statues in the past created a link with Buddha. So even if someone picked up the brochure, looked at it and threw it away, it would plant seeds in their mindstream. I am sure Dorje Shugden would not be the slightest bit offended :)

By the way, re your reference to HE Tsem Tulku - over the past few months, I have been avidly watching his videos on youtube. Many of the times, he is speaking tongue in cheek. I have heard him talk about his pandit's hat (see the 'Journey to Gaden' video, where he received it from the monks of his khamtsen - sorry not sure about spelling) and it is definitely respectful. If we quote Tsem Lama out of context, we can have a field day, but if we look at his teachings OVERALL, I bow to his amazing knowledge and skilful means.

Please stop the argument about the brochure already. We have heard your thoughts and heard others' thoughts. If we wish to keep our initial thoughts, even though everyone else is not in agreement, it is our perogative, but i think there is no need to continue if our motivation is just to be right.

I believe we are all here in this forum because we LOVE Dorje Shugden. I cannot speak for others, but I would like more people to know about Dorje Shugden and the benefits of his practice. They may or may not propitiate Shugden in the end but I hope they will at least get a karmic imprint and come to this website to learn more. At the very least, i hope they will not have wrong view of Shugden from just hearing the Dalai Lama's side of the story.

Many thanks to the webmaster of this website and people like TK who love Shugden so passionately they put words into action. May I be like them.







Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #92 on: June 06, 2010, 05:29:25 AM »

Friends,

I´m really sorry that we were able to hurt each other in this way.
Please let´s try to leave aside the accusations we are hurling to each other.
We have proferred some exagerated words from each side. It´s maybe time to express some regret and get on with matters with no personal attacks.
I feel that this East/West thing has been blown out of proportion, from both sides. After all, for how long is one an Eastern person, or Western, or whatever? We have been from so many places in the infinite succession of our lives, and will continue to be. At least let´s try not to become again citizens of the lower realms, "the beings main residence" as one of our high Lamas used to call them ... and Lord Buddha too said so.

Although I already expressed my heartfelt desire for the brochure to benefit many people, I can understand what Alexis is saying. He was the disciple of one of those Lamas from old Tibet, and I can confirm that this Lama didn´t have patience with the mixture of Dharma and money, although his holy "non patience" was directed toward teachers who would ask money for the Dharma. The brochure is not comparable to this, on the contrary, people are using their own time and money to propagate it. The brochure is an act of generosity.

Still, those holy Lamas like Dagom Rinpoche and in general several great disciples of Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang, all of them left an imprint of suspicion against the mixing of money and Dharma in their Western disciples. Alexis sayings were an expression of this scrupulous sensitivity. He might´ve been awkward in his words but his longing for a type of purity in the spreading of Dharma comes directly from the great Lamas that came from Tibet. My Lamas were like that too, that´s why I know the origin of his feelings in this case.

It seems that the brochure has brought a bunch of newbies to the website. Be welcome and enjoy the Forum and the richness of information in the main page.

TK, it´s difficult to applaud enough your generosity.


Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #93 on: June 06, 2010, 08:07:31 AM »
This has been most interesting debate...

...and the solution to this problem is Lamrim, as usual.

In the original Lamrim-scheme of Atisha, there are four scopes of motivation to religious practice:
- the wish to have happiness in this life
- the wish to have happiness in the next life
- the wish to have permanent cessation of all suffering (liberation)
- the wish that everyone would have permanent cessation of all suffering (full enlightenment)

Later, the tradition collated the first two scopes into one. But nevertheless, it is quite clear, that there is nothing wrong or un-dharmic in approaching the Three Jewels from the perspective of finding a better life just here and now. There are loads of Suttas where Buddha Shakyamuni explains all kinds of methods for "this-worldly happiness and prosperity" - how to treat one's spouse for a happy marriage, how to invest the business profits for a pleasurable and secure future, how to avoid angering all kinds of local spirits for a calamity free life, and so forth. All this is Dharma, as found in Pali Canon, and as classified as the very start of the path to enlightenment in the Lamrim.

There are those who start meditating because they want mental peace and more harmonious relationships, there are those who start practicing because they want success to their family business. The first reason might be more prevalent in the 'modern West', and the latter in the 'traditional East', but still, they are both on the same level of being the very start of the religious path.

If one approaches a Dharmapala so that one could achieve mental fortitude, luck in business, or freedom from interfering spirits, it is all right indeed, for it is just that very Dharma, the first stage of Lamrim, the start of the Path.

If Pabongkhapa said somewhere at some point to some listeners that "practice for this life is not Dharma", he either did not know the Suttas or the Lamrim, or else he was trying to shake a little some lazy hedonists in his audience. I would bet the latter option rings more true.

Now of course, if one defines true Dharma practice as being free from the eight worldly concerns, as is sometimes done, then Pabongkhapa was totally right indeed, but by that token, almost nobody would practice any Dharma, so that definition cannot be taken as a generally valid one but as a specific statement intended for specific audiences. This must be true, because there are other definitions of true Dharma as well that relate to other stages of Lamrim. True Dharma can also be said to start from the stage of Mahayana bodhichitta, or Hinayana renunciation, or general Refuge arising from fear of lower rebirth and faith in the Three Jewels, this latter being implied by the freedom from eight worldly concerns.

And furthermore, for example, there are many many prayers given by Buddha himself and by great lineage-masters, where Tara is especially invoked to help in "this-worldly matters", like saving from the eight fears, or granting offspring, or bestowing success to one's business, or averting spirits. In short, there is nothing un-dharmic in praying and practicing for the happiness of this life. It is in fact the very start of Lamrim. If it is in harmony with Pali Suttas, Lamrim-teachings, and Tara practices, it must be okay with Dorje Shugden as well.


blessings,
Zhalmed Pawo

LosangKhyentse

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #94 on: June 06, 2010, 10:25:31 AM »
This has been most interesting debate...

...and the solution to this problem is Lamrim, as usual.

In the original Lamrim-scheme of Atisha, there are four scopes of motivation to religious practice:
- the wish to have happiness in this life
- the wish to have happiness in the next life
- the wish to have permanent cessation of all suffering (liberation)
- the wish that everyone would have permanent cessation of all suffering (full enlightenment)

Later, the tradition collated the first two scopes into one. But nevertheless, it is quite clear, that there is nothing wrong or un-dharmic in approaching the Three Jewels from the perspective of finding a better life just here and now. There are loads of Suttas where Buddha Shakyamuni explains all kinds of methods for "this-worldly happiness and prosperity" - how to treat one's spouse for a happy marriage, how to invest the business profits for a pleasurable and secure future, how to avoid angering all kinds of local spirits for a calamity free life, and so forth. All this is Dharma, as found in Pali Canon, and as classified as the very start of the path to enlightenment in the Lamrim.

There are those who start meditating because they want mental peace and more harmonious relationships, there are those who start practicing because they want success to their family business. The first reason might be more prevalent in the 'modern West', and the latter in the 'traditional East', but still, they are both on the same level of being the very start of the religious path.

If one approaches a Dharmapala so that one could achieve mental fortitude, luck in business, or freedom from interfering spirits, it is all right indeed, for it is just that very Dharma, the first stage of Lamrim, the start of the Path.

If Pabongkhapa said somewhere at some point to some listeners that "practice for this life is not Dharma", he either did not know the Suttas or the Lamrim, or else he was trying to shake a little some lazy hedonists in his audience. I would bet the latter option rings more true.

Now of course, if one defines true Dharma practice as being free from the eight worldly concerns, as is sometimes done, then Pabongkhapa was totally right indeed, but by that token, almost nobody would practice any Dharma, so that definition cannot be taken as a generally valid one but as a specific statement intended for specific audiences. This must be true, because there are other definitions of true Dharma as well that relate to other stages of Lamrim. True Dharma can also be said to start from the stage of Mahayana bodhichitta, or Hinayana renunciation, or general Refuge arising from fear of lower rebirth and faith in the Three Jewels, this latter being implied by the freedom from eight worldly concerns.

And furthermore, for example, there are many many prayers given by Buddha himself and by great lineage-masters, where Tara is especially invoked to help in "this-worldly matters", like saving from the eight fears, or granting offspring, or bestowing success to one's business, or averting spirits. In short, there is nothing un-dharmic in praying and practicing for the happiness of this life. It is in fact the very start of Lamrim. If it is in harmony with Pali Suttas, Lamrim-teachings, and Tara practices, it must be okay with Dorje Shugden as well.


blessings,
Zhalmed Pawo

Dear Zhalmed Pawo,

Your explanations was absolutely beautiful. The four scopes is exactly what I had in mind. Focussing on the initial scope to kickstart the dharma in many beings minds who would ordinarily not even consider dharma practice, hence the skilfully done brochures.

To force many people onto the highest scope for practicing dharma in the beginning is wishful and illogical thinking. Most likely it would be too 'heavy' for them and they would just go away as I've seen it happen many times.


Your logic and clearly written explanation is something I fold my hands to very much.

Much appreciation for seeing things in a broader light. You do so much justice for your sacred Lama, our lineage, our practice, Lam Rim and holy Dorje Shugden. :)

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WISDOM.

TK



LosangKhyentse

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #95 on: June 06, 2010, 10:32:35 AM »


By the way, re your reference to HE Tsem Tulku - over the past few months, I have been avidly watching his videos on youtube. Many of the times, he is speaking tongue in cheek. I have heard him talk about his pandit's hat (see the 'Journey to Gaden' video, where he received it from the monks of his khamtsen - sorry not sure about spelling) and it is definitely respectful. If we quote Tsem Lama out of context, we can have a field day, but if we look at his teachings OVERALL, I bow to his amazing knowledge and skilful means.


I agree. If we quote His Eminence Tsem Rinpoche out of context, we can have two field days. Look at what he says overall. For that matter, if we quote many lamas 'high and low' out of context, it can be misinterpretated creating unnecessary wrong views. Let's not even go that direction please. Remember, this is about  A BROCHURE.

Thank you Wisdom Being for your even hand in all of this. You like the brochures, but you do not put down those who do not and it seems that it's ok with you if they don't agree with it. Wonderful dharma.

TK

icy

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #96 on: June 06, 2010, 11:04:53 AM »
Hi there!

Whether you are a westerner or easterner and whichever motivation he/she has surely the wisdom and compassion of Lord Dorje Shugden will eventually turn him/her into the highest scope of motivation.  TK is right we have to begin from somewhere to put westerner or easterner onto the compassion hook of Lord Dorje Shugen.  Whether you are a westerner or easterner, we all certainly have same materialistic needs to fulfill our practice.  We certainly cannot just breathe air, eat grass and be a renunciate and become a buddha; it is just not practical.  So I still think the brochure is a very good and skillful idea to spread the teaching.  This is so new age!

LosangKhyentse

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #97 on: June 06, 2010, 11:06:40 AM »

Exciting News!

I just got word, my friends in Bali, Indonesia have passed out 75 Dorje Shugden brochures in the airport in the information area.

Dorje Shugden really getting around.

Bali is basically Hindu/Buddhist area of Indonesia known for it's heavy tourism, nice people, beautiful scenes, warm climate and relaxing. Have travelled there.

TK

(Hey friends in Indonesia, thanks for making this available for people there. You are dedicated and compassionate. Thanks for being so tireless in your efforts and putting your beliefs into action for others. Folded hands. TK)


« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 11:10:05 AM by tk »

LosangKhyentse

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #98 on: June 06, 2010, 03:01:05 PM »


All those who oppose the current beautiful brochure, please come up with another one that would suit your countries. Then why can't we have many types of brochures to download. Spend time on creating a new brochure to add to the current one instead of just words please. And submit your brochure to the webmaster.  Do something that you think would appeal in Western Countries. Perhaps another enthusiastic person would print out and distribute. 

WSS passed out many brochures, so it does work in the West.

TK

Mohani

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #99 on: June 06, 2010, 03:07:48 PM »
Hi TK,
Just to clarify, I don't think the WSS handed out leaflets to educate people about Dorje Shugden, they were drawing attention to the Dalai Lamas unholy actions and explaining what all the noise was about.

Cheers,
x

LosangKhyentse

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2010, 03:10:24 PM »
Dear Mohani,

Whatever was being handed out was insignificant to the actual protests that many people were against. Outright shocking. But I do not condemn them.

My point, new times calls for new measures. Check our motivation, and if possible our teachers and then proceed. Nothing we do will ever be in full agreemant by everyone. That is ok too.

Thank you for sharing,

TK

DSFriend

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2010, 04:21:29 PM »
Dear Mohani,

Whatever was being handed out was insignificant to the actual protests that many people were against. Outright shocking. But I do not condemn them.

My point, new times calls for new measures. Check our motivation, and if possible our teachers and then proceed. Nothing we do will ever be in full agreemant by everyone. That is ok too.

Thank you for sharing,

TK

Dear TK
I like what you said very much. "New times calls for new measures..." and how true that really, "nothing we do will ever be in full agreement by everyone". If we use old ways and take the step only when everyone is in agreement, then would have let many opportunities to benefit slip by...

with much respect
DSFriend

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2010, 04:32:58 PM »
Quote
If Pabongkhapa said somewhere at some point to some listeners that "practice for this life is not Dharma", he either did not know the Suttas or the Lamrim, or else he was trying to shake a little some lazy hedonists in his audience.

(snip) ............. Again, ZP, be careful how you speak about our lineage masters! Please! ............ (snip)


I was not talking or commenting about Pabongkhapa. I was talking about misplaced literal interpretations of non-contextualized quotes. What I said, was itself in a wider context of seeing the whole path, as should be clear to anyone who read the post in toto, and the paragraph in question was worded like this:

If Pabongkhapa said somewhere at some point to some listeners that "practice for this life is not Dharma", he either did not know the Suttas or the Lamrim, or else he was trying to shake a little some lazy hedonists in his audience. I would bet the latter option rings more true.

So you see, I was not talking about Pabongkhapa's attainments or such, but about how not to use quotes out of the context, for that would lead one astray. One must see the forest, not just stick to a piece of cutted log wood. For indeed, it was your interpretation of that quote from Pabongkhapa that would entail that he did not know the Sutras or Lamrim, as both the Sutras and Lamrim do teach "this-worldly Dharma" as well as the "other-worldly Dharma" and the "world transcending Dharma". It was your interpretation that reflected badly on Pabongkhapa.

In the Tara Tantra, Buddha Shakyamuni teaches the well known 21 Praises with their Benefits we Kadampas still recite today. It includes many "this-worldly benefits". If your interpretation of that quote from Pabongkhapa would be right, it would entail that according to you Buddha Shakyamuni taught non-dharma.


blessings,
Zhalmed Pawo
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 04:39:42 PM by Zhalmed Pawo »

pgdharma

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2010, 05:40:55 PM »
Thank you TK for posting some photos that you received from your friends in Australia and Indonesia. I rejoice for those compassionate people who put in so much effort in putting DS brochures all over. Now people in Australia and Indonesia will benefit from this. Well done!!!!!

pgdharma

Zhalmed Pawo

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Re: DS 'brochure'
« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2010, 05:52:10 PM »
While I agree on the rest, this requires a comment:

Atisha did not describe four scopes, only three: "Understand there are three kinds of persons because of the small, middling and supreme capacities..."

The small scope can be splitted into common and uncommon, the difference being this life and next lives. In the big scheme it does nor matter whether they are lumped together or not, but in the beginning, for a practitioner, the difference is great. But no biggie.

(Hmmm. Now that I think of it, I'm not sure what is the exact origin of the expressions "common motivation of a person of a small scope" and "uncommon etc". Must do some digging. Ugh... OK, as my Atisha's Collected Works, transl. Sheyburne, is not here with me, I can only say that at least Je Tsongkhapa writes in LRCM (I) p.131-132 as follows: "Among the persons of small capacity, there are indeed two types - those who are intent on this lifetime and those who are intent on future lifetimes." But what was his exact source, I simply cannot recall or tell now. Bhoah...  :( )