Bodh Gaya

[a friend]

Dear Dharmadefender,
I'm not sure that I understand your question. So if my answer does not answer it, then please re-word it for me.
So you say the following: still, at some point, do we not need to experience it as Lord Buddha himself did? Therefore at some point, despite having taken true refuge, won't we will still suffer a rebirth in the three lower realms (no matter how brief)?
I never heard of such requisite, that one needs to go to the lower realms in order to mirror some experience of our kind Master.
Nevertheless, if ever such requisite exists somewhere, you don't have to worry, you can be a 100% sure that you and I and everybody have been in those lower realms an inordinate number of times. Imagine that we are circling in samsara from beginningless time! Since we are still unenlightened, it's a sure bet that we have been unfortunate residents in those unfortunate realms. So it's done.

I would like to tell you a couple of small things about death. It's very important to train our minds in the principal aspects of the path and to maintain a happy mind. It's very important to purposely purify ourselves from past bad deeds ... anything virtuous that we do has the power of purifying us, but of course you have several specific purification practices like Dorje Sempa. After any virtuous activity and at the end of the day, dedicate in order to obtain Buddhahood for the sake of our kind mother beings, and right away, rejoice, always rejoice in your smallest good deed, it makes it very strong and it gives you a happy mind. A happy mind is very important at the time of death because the mind goes to a place compatible with your last thoughts. So now is the time to think about death and be fearful of non virtue, and have regret for the non virtue already accumulated. But at the moment of death one should only remember the good things, and rejoice for them.
No matter what, your kind Guru is going to help you.
These are very general just simple thoughts, there are more things though, wonderful Dharma tools, and I hope to be able to write some more about it for you.

[DharmaDefender]

Dear Dharmadefender,
I'm not sure that I understand your question. So if my answer does not answer it, then please re-word it for me.
So you say the following: still, at some point, do we not need to experience it as Lord Buddha himself did? Therefore at some point, despite having taken true refuge, won't we will still suffer a rebirth in the three lower realms (no matter how brief)?
I never heard of such requisite, that one needs to go to the lower realms in order to mirror some experience of our kind Master.
Nevertheless, if ever such requisite exists somewhere, you don't have to worry, you can be a 100% sure that you and I and everybody have been in those lower realms an inordinate number of times. Imagine that we are circling in samsara from beginningless time! Since we are still unenlightened, it's a sure bet that we have been unfortunate residents in those unfortunate realms. So it's done.

I would like to tell you a couple of small things about death. It's very important to train our minds in the principal aspects of the path and to maintain a happy mind. It's very important to purposely purify ourselves from past bad deeds ... anything virtuous that we do has the power of purifying us, but of course you have several specific purification practices like Dorje Sempa. After any virtuous activity and at the end of the day, dedicate in order to obtain Buddhahood for the sake of our kind mother beings, and right away, rejoice, always rejoice in your smallest good deed, it makes it very strong and it gives you a happy mind. A happy mind is very important at the time of death because the mind goes to a place compatible with your last thoughts. So now is the time to think about death and be fearful of non virtue, and have regret for the non virtue already accumulated. But at the moment of death one should only remember the good things, and rejoice for them.
No matter what, your kind Guru is going to help you.
These are very general just simple thoughts, there are more things though, wonderful Dharma tools, and I hope to be able to write some more about it for you.

A friend, thank you for your considered response, really. I'm not in disagreement with any part of your answer but I don't think I phrased my question very well.

My position is that although we may have the tools to purify negative karma, we will still have to experience it at some point. Maybe not in our next rebirth and not the one after, but many lifetimes in the future when it fruitions - therefore taking refuge will not save you from an eventual lower rebirth (but maybe it becomes less likely to happen). Surely the ultimate master of the mind, Shakyamuni, had taken both true refuge and possessed the tools to purify karma...so why did he still take rebirth in the lower realms, if not to show us that it is inescapable?

In that line of thinking therefore, no matter how much Dharma work we do, and how much mind transformation we undertake, a lower rebirth is still possible for us in the future even if we have taken refuge. Thus, going back to my original point - if the people who attend the Dalai Lama's teachings don't practise, it makes no difference whether they are allowed in Bodhgaya or not. Ultimately, it is still just a place, however holy.

I don't think you and I disagree but I think how we've phrased it is different - I certainly see no fault when you say "you can be a 100% sure that you and I and everybody have been in those lower realms an inordinate number of times."

[a friend]

Dear DD, sorry I didn´t answer before, I didn´t remember which was the thread.
Pls allow me to ask you, could you tell me what are you referring to?
Lord Buddha never took a "rebirth" in hell that I know of. Are you thinking of some life of his, before he was the Buddha?

[WoselTenzin]

I recently heard that His Holiness the Dalai Lama has banned Shugdenpas from visiting Bodh Gaya. This is very sectarian and hard to understand. First His Holiness uses identity cards to say who is and isn't a true Tibetan and now if you follow Shugden you are not seen as Buddhist and therefore can't visit Bodh Gaya. How sad.

I am not sure if this is true.  However, if it is, I think it’s another extreme way to try to ostracize DS practitioners.  Religious freedom is human right.  Even the DL has got no right to do this.  He doesn’t have the authority to carry out the ban.  Furthermore, even if he tries to nevertheless, how is he going to check who is and who is not a DS follower?  Issue identity card for DS practitioners? Quite absurd if you think about it.

[icy]

Ha, Ha DD, dont need to be sad.  Anyone can visit Bodhgaya.  Don't let words of this nature affect your mind.  Think logically, even if you aren't Buddhist you still can visit Bodhgaya.  Don't let these words 'walk your mind'.

icy

[dsnowlion]

Bodhgaya is India not Tibet and under the TGIE jurisdiction.

I doubt anybody cares or is able to stop anyone from going there. How insane can we get? How can they check? THey don't have the authority to do so.

So I doubt this is true. A friend of mine just went to Bodhgaya and there was no such reports. So no worries mate!

Cheers!
dsnowlion

[LosangKhyentse]

Bodhgaya is India not Tibet and under the TGIE jurisdiction.

I doubt anybody cares or is able to stop anyone from going there. How insane can we get? How can they check? THey don't have the authority to do so.

So I doubt this is true. A friend of mine just went to Bodhgaya and there was no such reports. So no worries mate!

Cheers!
dsnowlion

TGIE and their cronies can stop you from attending a teachings by stringent checks. But they cannot stop you from visiting Bodhgaya and the sacred Tree/Stupa. Those are managed by the Mahabodi society of India and Sri Lanka. TGIE has zero jurisdiction over them or their 'territories'.

There is a lot of Tibetans living, visiting and staying there who might be fanatical though. Namgyal Monastery which is the Monastery of the Dalai lama has a huge hotel and boarding house there 10 minutes walk from the sacred Tree. There might be alot of monks or ppl there who report to TGIE the goings on in Bodhgaya.

FPMT has a centre there around 25 minutes by manual rikshaw from the Sacred Tree. FPMT loves to judge who does Shugden, who doesn't and stir up alot of talk regarding this. That is a place to becareful of. Sorry to say this about Root Institute in bodhgaya. It is so different now with Lama Yeshe not around anymore. FPMT is always on a witch hunt. Poor them.


There is huge congregation of 'indoor' Tibetan sellers of clothes, blankets, housing goods, electronics built up of tents on the land where Kalacakra was given. There are at least 100+ Tibetan stores there. This is around 30 minutes away by manual rikshaw also. Most of the Tibetans there are very fanatical. Whole place is made up of huge tents.

But basically no one can stop you from going or doing anything there. There are thousands of tourists and Indian visitors during peak seasons. During off season, 80% of the Tibetans are gone. It is like a ghost town. If you don't mind the rain or heat in off seasons, it is quite quiet.

TK

Picture enclosed is the Sacred Shakyamuni Image inside the Bodhgaya stupa. This stupa is next to the sacred Bodhi Tree built by the Dharma King Ashoka. Tens of thousands of pilgrims visit this Sacred Image, stupa and tree. I myself have gone over ten times. I want to go even more.

Very Blissful there.

[WisdomBeing]

Dear TK

Thank you for sharing your experience about Bodhgaya. I would love to visit there one day. I'll wear my 'i love Dorje Shugden' t-shirt.. but they can't do anything to me as a British citizen right? Do they just attack Tibetans or anyone?

Curious.

Love
Kate

[icy]

Dear TK

Thank you for sharing your experience about Bodhgaya. I would love to visit there one day. I'll wear my 'i love Dorje Shugden' t-shirt.. but they can't do anything to me as a British citizen right? Do they just attack Tibetans or anyone?



I am not a Tibetan too, I from the US.  I will wear my DORJE SHUGDEN T-shirt the next time I visit Bodhgaya.  Perhaps I will trigger off the most talked about person in the holy place.

Curious.

Love
Kate

[Big Uncle]

I think they can only enforce this ruling upon the monastics of the Tibetan tradition that come on pilgrimage. This is really sad and unfair. However, they cannot do anything to foreign Dorje Shugden practitioners. If I were to go, I wouldn't be going to tell everyone that I would be propitiating Dorje Shugden as my protector. However, I wouldn't mind printing hundreds of the brochures downloadable from this site to distribute around the Mahabodhi in secret.

[DharmaSpace]

teachings.
Big Uncle, like Thailand , India also has its share of people born under unfortunate circumstances so please give the people there a chance to connect to Dorje Shugden/Manjushri, a chance to do practices that can take them out of suffering and if they truly have faith in Dorje Shugden, the protector will be a guide at the point of death. Thanks for all your efforts.

[WisdomBeing]

I think they can only enforce this ruling upon the monastics of the Tibetan tradition that come on pilgrimage. This is really sad and unfair. However, they cannot do anything to foreign Dorje Shugden practitioners. If I were to go, I wouldn't be going to tell everyone that I would be propitiating Dorje Shugden as my protector. However, I wouldn't mind printing hundreds of the brochures downloadable from this site to distribute around the Mahabodhi in secret.

Hey Big Uncle,

Don't you want to join Icy and i with our "I love Dorje Shugden" t-shirts?  I'm actually curious what the reactions would be if we were to openly be DS practitioners in such an environment. I don't think anyone can do anything to us legally though I'm not 100% confident that nothing will happen to us unofficially, after all i am sure there are many dark alleys in Bodh gaya, even if it is meant to be a holy place.

Has anyone heard of anything unpleasant happening to any non-Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners at Bodh gaya?

[Big Uncle]

I think they can only enforce this ruling upon the monastics of the Tibetan tradition that come on pilgrimage. This is really sad and unfair. However, they cannot do anything to foreign Dorje Shugden practitioners. If I were to go, I wouldn't be going to tell everyone that I would be propitiating Dorje Shugden as my protector. However, I wouldn't mind printing hundreds of the brochures downloadable from this site to distribute around the Mahabodhi in secret.

Hey Big Uncle,

Don't you want to join Icy and i with our "I love Dorje Shugden" t-shirts?  I'm actually curious what the reactions would be if we were to openly be DS practitioners in such an environment. I don't think anyone can do anything to us legally though I'm not 100% confident that nothing will happen to us unofficially, after all i am sure there are many dark alleys in Bodh gaya, even if it is meant to be a holy place.

Has anyone heard of anything unpleasant happening to any non-Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners at Bodh gaya?

That's a really funny thought. I don't mind doing that in Bodhgaya. I just need to find some friends to go along with me and we can all wear the same t-shirt and flaunt our practice. Nobody would dare do anything much. The most they'd do would be to ignore us.

[Zach]

Dear TK

Thank you for sharing your experience about Bodhgaya. I would love to visit there one day. I'll wear my 'i love Dorje Shugden' t-shirt.. but they can't do anything to me as a British citizen right? Do they just attack Tibetans or anyone?

Curious.

Love
Kate

Dont be silly kate it is really not a good Idea to do that its like poking a bear with a cattle prod. These Tibetans can get fairly fanatical and violent if one is seen to be against ther cause or the cause of the DL. Should have seen them in New york when they came out from the Dalai lamas teachings they certainly were not practicing love or compassion toward the protestors so back on home soil I think they would be even less forgiving of supporters of our practice

[Mana]

Dear TK

Thank you for sharing your experience about Bodhgaya. I would love to visit there one day. I'll wear my 'i love Dorje Shugden' t-shirt.. but they can't do anything to me as a British citizen right? Do they just attack Tibetans or anyone?

Curious.

Love
Kate

Dont be silly kate it is really not a good Idea to do that its like poking a bear with a cattle prod. These Tibetans can get fairly fanatical and violent if one is seen to be against ther cause or the cause of the DL. Should have seen them in New york when they came out from the Dalai lamas teachings they certainly were not practicing love or compassion toward the protestors so back on home soil I think they would be even less forgiving of supporters of our practice

Zach, You are right. They are fanatical to the point of real violence. Although they go for teachings, recite Om Mani Peme Hung daily, very few actually practice dharma to the point of mind transformation. So everyone has to be real careful with them. I saw the video of them going ballistic in New York. They don't seem to realize they show the violence and misbehaviour they accuse others of.

Mana