Lama Zopa says it's shameful

[LosangKhyentse]

Re HH Trijang Rinpoche, I have just read this which Lama Zopa said about him:

"The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him. That’s absolutely shameful. Therefore, the people around him have to think very extensively. In his previous life he performed incredibly holy actions; therefore, his present incarnation has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light."

Even though Lama Zopa's stance is against Shugden, he still saw HH Trijang Rinpoche as such. If only others can see it too.


---------------------------------------------

The above quoted from Wisdom Being from another thread: (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=744.0). I think it is very interesting that Lama Zopa seems 'contradictory' (sorry) in his stance. Dalai Lama says that Trijang Rinpoche is a great and realized master, yet he made a mistake with the Dorje Shugden proliferation. Then Trijang Rinpoche doesn't sound great??  Here Lama Zopa says Trijang Rinpoche shouldn't be hidden away but Lama Zopa is 'against' Dorje Shugden.  Sounds like the shoe is not fitting. Much underlying meaning.

TK

[Zach]

I think the underlieing meaning is rather simple, Lama Zopa knows what the DL is doing is pure politics ( We dont know wheather Lama Zopa is paying lip service to DL's ban and just posturing, as with a pure view if he is following perfect guru devotion then this is certain he is paying lip service. )

 

[LosangKhyentse]

After thinking about this more I think there are some logical, philosophical errors:

"The incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang, His Holiness Trijang Rinpoche, is His Holiness the Dalai Lama’s guru and the lama of all the Tibetan people, so it’s terrible if he’s hidden away in some corner as if there’s something wrong with him.

According to public information the incarnation of Kyabje Dorje Chang is not a guru of the Dalai Lama, he has not received teachings from him.  The previous Trijang Rinpoche definitely was a guru to the Dalai Lama.  Of course philosophically there is a strong imprint between gurus and disciples through their past lives, however the term 'person' applies to one person's life, not to all of their reincarnations.  So if I was a disciple of the previous Kyabje Dorje Chang that does not necessarily entail I am a disciple of his reincarnation.  I think we need to be very clear on this point.

I agree with Trinley Kalsang. The current 14th Dalai Lama is not a disciple of the current Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche.

If our guru's incarnation returns, of course it is correct to show respect, but it does not mean he is our guru again until we seal the deal with recieving dharma from him again in his CURRENT INCARNATION.

tk

[Zhalmed Pawo]

I agree with Trinley Kalsang. The current 14th Dalai Lama is not a disciple of the current Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche.

If our guru's incarnation returns, of course it is correct to show respect, but it does not mean he is our guru again until we seal the deal with recieving dharma from him again in his CURRENT INCARNATION.

I shall join the agreement here.

If one wishes to see how the tulku-system works, or is intended to work, there is no better source than the case of Karmapa, as he was the first tulku ever (at least in a manner of a recognizable tulku-system). He passed the lineage to his disciple Shamarpa, who then passed the same lineage to the next Karmapa, who then passed it to the next Shamarpa, and so forth, and in all these transmissions, the role between the master and disciple changed. Although the Karmapa was the original master, he nevertheless became in all his incarnations a disciple of his original disciple. That was the idea. A ten year old Karmapa does not say to the old accomplished Shamarpa that "I am your Lama".

For after all, since samsara is without beginning, we all have been Gurus in the past for our present day Teachers. Should they now bow to us simply because five gazillions of years ago we were their masters? 

The formal relationship between a master and a disciple depends on the circumstances of this life alone. One cannot extend it backwards in time.

[LosangKhyentse]

I agree with Trinley Kalsang. The current 14th Dalai Lama is not a disciple of the current Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche.

If our guru's incarnation returns, of course it is correct to show respect, but it does not mean he is our guru again until we seal the deal with recieving dharma from him again in his CURRENT INCARNATION.

I shall join the agreement here.

If one wishes to see how the tulku-system works, or is intended to work, there is no better source than the case of Karmapa, as he was the first tulku ever (at least in a manner of a recognizable tulku-system). He passed the lineage to his disciple Shamarpa, who then passed the same lineage to the next Karmapa, who then passed it to the next Shamarpa, and so forth, and in all these transmissions, the role between the master and disciple changed. Although the Karmapa was the original master, he nevertheless became in all his incarnations a disciple of his original disciple. That was the idea. A ten year old Karmapa does not say to the old accomplished Shamarpa that "I am your Lama".

Excellent example stated above. Along With ZP's example I would like to add the changing of the teacher-disciple relationships between the Dalai Lamas and Panchen Lamas throughout their incarnation lines. They switched roles with each other many times.

TK

[Midakpa]

I'm so relieved after reading the above comments. I cannot thank you enough. This proves that we must not be attached to appearances.

[Midakpa]

In this life, the Dalai Lama did not become the Panchen Lama's guru. Perhaps he did not have the chance due to the circumstances. Are there other explanations?

[Midakpa]

Dear Trinley Kalsang,

Your explanation has demystified the Dalai Lama-Panchen Lama guru-disciple relationship. In their previous lives, they seemed to have created the causes not to be in a guru-disciple relationship any more.

But you're right. We shouldn't worry about this. What's important is to "find an appropriate guru for oneself" as you said and go all the way.

Thank you.

Midakpa

[Lineageholder]

It's not surprising that the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama don't have a Guru-Disciple relationship anymore.  If this 14th Dalai Lama really were the incarnation of the 5th, the 5th Dalai Lama showed his Guru Panchen Losang Chogyan so much disrespect and created a lot of inauspiciousness, for example not listening to him and getting more involved in politics and not even attending his funeral rites but sending a representative instead. Also, remember that Panchen Losang Chogyan was also the Guru of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, who was the 5th's enemy due to the high regard he was held in for his spiritual attainments.

These days, 14th Dalai Lama is also not really interested in Je Tsongkhapa's tradition but is encouraging people to take teachings from other traditions in the name of non-sectarianism as he has done himself. However, I think the main reason why there's no Guru-Disciple relation is quite simply that the 14th Dalai Lama is not in the same continuum as the previous Dalai Lamas, so there's no karmic connection with the Panchen Lama.  In short, I believe the story told in 'Ocean of Truth Explained' that the Reting Rinpoche chose a false Dalai Lama which perfectly explains why things have turned out as disastrously as they have for the Gelugpa tradition.

[Ensapa]

that is rather interesting to learn of the rift that happened between the Panchen lama and the 5th Dalai Lama, and how he broke Guru devotion, perhaps that is the reason why the 6th Dalai Lama decide to manifest as a mahasiddha, and also why several of the Dalai Lama's incarnations died young, although they took the Panchen Lamas as their teacher again. But with that said, he probably wants to show us the dangers of going against our own Guru.

In all honestly, i do not believe that the current Dalai Lam is a fake incarnation, but rather he is just manifesting something different that what he is expected to manifest. After all, who are we to confine the Buddhas and enlightened beings to our own narrow thinking? If he was really the fake incarnation then Tibetan Buddhism would have never reached the USA and Europe. It is all thanks to the Dalai Lama's efforts, decisions and actions that the Dharma can spread so far.

The Dalai Lama cares more for the welfare of Buddhism as a whole, and not just for his own tradition. If he can subject Gelug to this, of all the traditions, it is pretty evident that he knows Gelug can take it, survive and grow bigger than ever. The harsh reality is that many people these days prefer to dwell on mystical experiences that nobody can verify and are adverse towards logic and reasoning because that dispels the oh i am so holy illusion that so many Buddhists cling on to.

I have heard of so many times, of people who have not heard of Lama Tsongkhapa or the Lamrim, even though they are Tibetan Buddhist. When asked they said they prefer Nyigma or Kagyu, but cannot explain why. They are just too afraid, in reality, to be questioned and to have their knowledge and views dissected and verified or backed up against logic, reasoning and scriptural basis. This is not the fault of the lineages or Gelug, but rather this is how Buddhist practitioners have became these days, and this ban seems to be designed to highlight Gelugpa in general.

Perhaps at this time, it is better for the Panchen Lama to not appear for reasons that we cannot see at this moment in time. I believe he will come back and lead Tibet when CTA has proven their worth as an independent government that will not depend on the Dalai Lama for every single decision, but rather do what every other government does: makes decisions out of cold, hard facts and not just out of hearsay and belief and implement more transparency in their administration. 

[bambi]

Whether a High Lama or a monk practice Dorje Shugden, it doesnt matter as they are still the Sanghas. Why do people take refuge in the Sanghas everyday but choose only the types that they 'think' is right? HH Trijang Rinpoche is a well known and respectable Lama throughout His lives but suddenly when the ban is out, everyone says He is evil? Although Lama Zopa is 'against' Dorje Shugden but He saw Trijang Rinpoche as a High Lama who "has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light." How Beautiful!

[Ensapa]

Whether a High Lama or a monk practice Dorje Shugden, it doesnt matter as they are still the Sanghas. Why do people take refuge in the Sanghas everyday but choose only the types that they 'think' is right? HH Trijang Rinpoche is a well known and respectable Lama throughout His lives but suddenly when the ban is out, everyone says He is evil? Although Lama Zopa is 'against' Dorje Shugden but He saw Trijang Rinpoche as a High Lama who "has the potential to spread Dharma in both the East and the West like the rising sun spreads light." How Beautiful!

That is the exact reason why laypeople don't get much attainments. They want monks that fit their perception of purity. They want Dharma texts that sound pleasant, that sounds poetic and "deep" rather than texts that make them face themselves. They only select the phrase that they like from a Dharma text and hold on to it and conveniently ignore other parts of the Sutra that they find hard to practice or that challenges their mind.

Samsaric beings are always following the majority. They are always concerned if they are following the "right" faction, the "right" religion, the "right" practice..this insecurity comes from them knowing that they have put minimal effort in the Dharma but wish to reap the full benefits from it. This laziness causes them to be afraid to commit into any Dharma practice and leads them to believe in rumors.

Trijang Rinpoche is HHDL's teacher for crying out loud. We all know that a bad teacher can never produce a good student. If Trijang Rinpoche is bad, it also automatically implies that all of his students are bad. So why spread such rumors against Trijang Rinpoche and get away with it? Everyone loves juicy rumors, but they don't really care to verify it and worst of all, the ones that say such rumors are those from other Buddhist sects. What does this tell you?

It is easy for people to take advantage of people with weak minds to spread rumors for other purposes…and this is what they did with Trijang Rinpoche….in order to make their own traditions look better, they put down the Lamas that form the basis an entire generation of Lamas as a way of implying that the particular tradition is bad. This is how real sectarianism really is.

[Barzin]

I like what Ensapa wrote.  It is funny how it makes me think for lay people, we can get choose the "right" practice, the "right" guru, the "right" conditions" to practice dharma even the "right" deity.  Yes we have almost a right to everything but i have never heard a guru has the "right" to choose his disciple.  How does guru devotion fits into this context when people are so selective on their spiritual journey?  It seems like we know better than them so why are you doing this?  I think it's time to question ourselves.  I feel that it has become very political and partially the lay practitioners have a big part to play.

If we have the blessings to be able to even hear the word dharma, the names of high incarnation masters like His Holiness and HH Trijang Rinpoche, we should think that we are so fortunate to even hear their names, learn their practices and gain attainments.  We should just accept the fact they are highly attained life after life, thats all.  If not they wouldn't earn the titles for nothing.

[shugdenpromoter]

I always believe that all lamas who are attained including HH and Trijang Rinpoche are all working hand in hand to spread the Buddha Dharma most EFFECTIVELY.

There will be a time where Trijang Rinpoche will teach and spread the Dharma. Trijang Rinpoche is doing a lot right now behind the scene which not many people are aware of. Come on.....Look Rinpoche was responsible for Domo Geshe Rinpoche new incarnation who is now residing in Shar Gaden. I have heard how he operates and he is of a calibre of a very high lama.

We just need to wait. If Trijang Rinpoche is already so effective behind the scene, can you imagine when he is OUT there???

[Carpenter]

People always very selective, we tend to pick and choose from the teachings that we think it ‘suit’ us, and we like to choose what makes us feel comfortable and of course, the easiest and convenient path.

When situation arises, we will always follow where the crowd goes, afraid of being left behind and become lonely, in fact, sometimes by just listen to what rumors said, we tend to believe it right away without doing any investigation whether it is true or not.

I always told the people around me, what we believe is not important, because everyone has our own faith, this is something very personal, other people should not step in and comment about it, the important thing is what we do, because our action is not about ourselves anymore, it does affect other people, then for others to comment about our action is very fine, they can even take the ‘right’ action towards us if we are doing something wrong / harmful.

I’m very release that Lama Zopa’s statement to Trijang Rinpoche, he does not put down Trijang Rinpoche for him believing in Dorje Shugden, but complimented him for his dharma work that benefitted so many people.