Author Topic: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue  (Read 9344 times)

DharmapalasDharma

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Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« on: June 08, 2010, 11:43:47 PM »
I have studied the points His Holiness the Dalai Lama gives to Tibetans and Westerners regarding Shugden practice. None of the arguements are justifieable. His Holiness says he made the ban to continue the legacy or the 5th and 13th Dalai Lama's and to give unity in the Four Tibetan Buddhist Schools. He even blames Pabongkapa Rinpoche and his disciples for harming Nyingma monasteries. Whether this is true or not doesn't mean our Protector is to blame but if it is true then it was the bad actions of an individual. How can His Holiness suddenly ban a deity and come up with excuses from the past when nothing ever happened previously. Shugden was not an issue until His Holiness made it one. I hope His Holiness knows his arguements are false.
DevoteeofDorje

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2010, 02:03:15 AM »
You're right. Dorje Shugden was made an issue by the 14th Dalai Lama, and the fact that he will not have a public debate on this issue shows that he knows that his argument does not hold water.

Even saying that he is continuing the 5th Dalai Lama's position on Dorje Shugden is misguided because although the 5th Dalai Lama tried to destroy Dorje Shugden at the beginning, later, he recanted. and began to propitiate him, writing a praise to Dorje Shugden, building Trode Kangsar, the chapel to DS and making a statue of Dorje Shugden with his own hands which I heard is in Peygeling Monastery, Nepal today.

For a very interesting commentary on why the Dalai Lama has taken this stance, please read http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1425

"It may look like Dalai lama is at odds with Dorje Shugden, but in actuality they are helping each other to make Buddha Dharma grow in the world."

I like this commentary very much because it is logical and the only view that makes sense out of this whole quagmire.

Enjoy reading it and look forward to your feedback.
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

a friend

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2010, 03:17:28 AM »
Quote
"It may look like Dalai lama is at odds with Dorje Shugden, but in actuality they are helping each other to make Buddha Dharma grow in the world."


To maintain the view that they are helping each other is such a destructive wrong view. I know, that article has been there from the beginning of this forum, but it has been refuted once and again. Such view destroys Buddhadharma more than the ban itself. It's a heaping of misfortune upon misfortune.
How would a person that appears as an enlightened being (an emanation of Lord Chenrezig, none less) act in such unspeakable way? Please do not make me again give you the catalog. From turning against your own Guru to producing a schism ... those could almost be considered personal things. But to push others to commit bad deeds ... as this Dalai Lama has done again and again ... pushing scores of people to commit bad deeds and then commending them for having them committed......
Buddhas appear in the world to show people what to take and what to abandon, this means, how to behave. This is the first, main and foremost action of a Buddha.They teach the basic vows of morality and then higher and higher vows. They point to what is going to produce suffering and what is going to produce happiness. They never do the opposite of this. Not when they show the garb of a Buddha. That is what Lord Shakyamuni showed to us, that is what Lord Atisha showed, that is what Lord Tsongkapa showed. They never pushed anybody to commit a wrong action, heavens forbid, nor did themselves show an appearance of commiting wrong actions, let alone promote them on a massive scale. This Dalai Lama has been promoting the cumulation of wrong actions among thousands of people, and people have followed him.

Do you think that you are saving the Dharma by defending the Dalai Lama with such an incredible distortion of the truth? You are presenting the world with such an erroneous view about Dharma ... this is producing a true degeneration. On one hand we are defending here the fact of providing people with the lowest possible level of Dharma tools ... and it is correct, because the majority of people are not even at the level of a person of lower capacity. So how can we present these same people, at the same time, with some supposedly higher knowledge interpretation of the Dalai Lama's actions? People need to know the most simple and straightforward level of conventional truth: that what the Dalai Lama has done is wrong. He says that his Gurus are wrong, and this is enough sacrilege. We don't need to now teach people that this is swell, a great thing to do, the thing that two enlightened beings do when they are in cohoots ...

For the sake of Dharma, for the sake of not deceiving the mind of unsuspecting people, please let's stop with this type of discourse!

We have already said that there are ways for practitioners to deal with what the Dalai Lama did: we have the Lojong teachings, we have for those initiated the Tantric teachings. These tools are magnificent, they are our treasury, the best possible way to deal with whatever comes, and they are of course perfect to deal with the DL situation. But they are for practitioners, not for the common folk. We have to respect the mind of others, we have to be very careful not to mislead them. That is why higher interpretations need to be kept private. For the public, we have brochures and we have simple, non deceiving conventional truth. For the practitioner, we know what we have, and it's only for the practitioner.

As TK would say ... with folded hands! With folded hands I beg you!


WisdomBeing

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2010, 12:00:01 PM »
A Friend - with deepest respect - I fully empathise with how you feel over this issue and there are many who share that feeling in this forum too. Likewise there are also many who agree with TK's point of view as do I. A forum like this is a place where we can safely put forward different views and sometimes, we will just agree to disagree. All visitors to this site will get to read the different points of view and make up their own minds. I like that tremendously because it is democratic and we do not promote just one (usually our) view and shut people up who do not agree with us. Then we are like TGIE and all that we say we are against.

With folded hands indeed,
Kate
Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Zach

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2010, 02:15:29 PM »
Inadvertently the DL is helping spread Dorje Shugdens name and practice, Those who are suffering by his actions are showing great worth and virtue in their conduct. Just goes to prove that Dorje shugden is a great benefit.
We all know the DL'S argument holds no water by presenting us with a force of opposition there is a very precious oppertunity for practitoners to put forward a great deal of authentic information and help spread the practice by throughly eliminating the misconception, This movie that is in the making how could that have come about if not directly from the ban ?

While i will not say if these actions are more then they seem, but i will look on the bright side.
The creation of Very pure Monasteries, Shar Gaden and Serpom, that are now free from the polluting politics of the DL.
The international attention of the media.
The creation of places such as http://www.dorjeshugden.com to help give practitoners all the information they need and in depth history and also especially the very precious commentary by Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche !
There are many positive points if we help create them after all im sure we are all well aware of where such negative thinking leads to and ordinary appearances ! Futher rebirth in samsara.  :)

honeydakini

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2010, 05:50:48 PM »
I have studied the points His Holiness the Dalai Lama gives to Tibetans and Westerners regarding Shugden practice. None of the arguements are justifieable. His Holiness says he made the ban to continue the legacy or the 5th and 13th Dalai Lama's and to give unity in the Four Tibetan Buddhist Schools. He even blames Pabongkapa Rinpoche and his disciples for harming Nyingma monasteries. Whether this is true or not doesn't mean our Protector is to blame but if it is true then it was the bad actions of an individual. How can His Holiness suddenly ban a deity and come up with excuses from the past when nothing ever happened previously. Shugden was not an issue until His Holiness made it one. I hope His Holiness knows his arguements are false.

Indeed you are right that DS was not a problem before. We need only consider the history of this protector to see how widely he was propitiated for over 350 years. How can it be that a Buddha is a Buddha for 350 years and then now suddenly he is a spirit?

Countless thousands and thousands of great masters have practised Dorje Shugden and they have reincarnated over and over again - if DS was a spirit that harmed the lives of those who practised him, then why have all these lamas been able to come back? Moreover, many of their unmistaken reincarnations were recognised by 14th dalai lama himself! Contradictions, contradictions.

How can it be that DS was not a problem to all the teachers of the lineage; nay, the teachers of Dalai Lama himself? This is to say that Trijang Rinpoche, Ling Rinpoche and all the teachers before then, and all the teachers who were their disciples are all wrong? And they have all been wrong for 350 years? The dalai lama himself acknowledged and wrote praises to Dorje Shugden throughout several incarnations. How can Dalai Lama be wrong sometimes and then correct some other times when he is the same mind continuum?

Yes, indeed, it was never a problem before. In fact, it is never a problem - it is the people who are making it a problem. DS is a perfect Buddha whose compassion and wisdom is unmoving, no matter how badly things are against him. (that itself is proof that he's a Buddha... for if he was a vengeful horrible spirit, then why hasn't he gotten the world back already for defaming him, burning his statues and harming his practitioners? All this time he has remained "quiet" and through oracles and trances, he only ever encourages practitioners to be patient, never speak against the dalai lama and always to maintain harmony)

a friend

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2010, 10:01:42 PM »

There is a tremendous confusion about this issue due to mixing up matters and confusing levels.
In terms of Dharma, right or wrong views are not seen in terms of political categories. At the most, different views are accepted as steps useful for different levels of practitioners, but definitely not all views.
Dharma matters/ political matters.
Outer, inner and secret.
Lower level, middling level, highest level of practice.
And then ... the use of logic. Two of the Six Superiors are considered superiors based on their title of Logicians.
Then there is what is good for my mind and the mind of others and what feels good. Not always coincidental.
 And so on and so forth.


triesa

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2010, 04:47:29 PM »
I believe the confusion and controversy generated about the Dorje Shudgen issue by H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama is actually a very skillful move in today's world where politics always play an arractive role, even in religion. I do not condemn H.H. as he is an enmanation of Chenrizig. He is no fool to create such controversy without having a much bigger picture behind. It is just so obvious. I admire H.H. so much that he is willing to sacrifice his own supreme reputation in order to bring forth such great public attention to Dorje Shudgen. What will happen is more people will look into the history of Dorje Shudgen and make their little investigations. When you learn the truth, and know that Dorje Shudgen is the enmanation of Manjushri, more will propitiate our dear protector.I believe Dorje Shudgen will be the great Dharma protector of this coming era, so H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama is merely pretending he is an illogical person by lots of contradictions. In this world, confusion in the beginning can sometimes bring forth huge wave of positive results in the end.

Triesa

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2010, 11:05:33 PM »
Triesa

For any public purposes, the DL is only a monk and a politician, but not an emanation of Chenrezig. Inner views of practitioners, like identifying a Lama with a certain Yidam, cannot be used in any public discussion. So please, do not mix the inner and outer spheres of perception. External activities must be judged according to the outer view, and cannot be explained away by referring to an internal view of a group of practitioners.

And also, there is no Big Picture behind all this DL-DS-hulabaloo. Buddhas do not operate that way. Politicians might, but then it would be better called a devious scheme, but not big picture. Furthermore, as no one can see the Big Picture, since it is by it's very nature hidden from everyone, it is a meaningless concept that has no use whatsoever. Theistic religions use the concept often, to explain how evil actions somehow could be pure and holy, but we Buddhists can not do that. It is a meaningless and karma-denying concept, and is therefore out of the Buddhist conceptual toolbox.

There has been discussions about both of these issues here before. Please read that discussion.

honeydakini

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2010, 06:12:23 PM »
There has been discussions about both of these issues here before. Please read that discussion.


TRIESA (and other new people): it would be helpful for you to read the following threads which has a very extensive discussion on the points you have mentioned. Do read the many views and perspectives on this. Is very useful to know

Dorje Shugden vs Dalai Lama or Dorje Shugden AND Dalai Lama? A new choice:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=669.0

Why DS has to be the bad guy: http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=599.0

Are the Buddhas, DalaiLama & Dorje Shugden insane? Or is it divine crazy wisdom?
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=600.0

a friend

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2010, 11:41:40 PM »

You might want to read below the original writing that started this discussion, that I wrote in the Guestroom and that Beggar, our original Global Moderator, copied in the Forum. After that initial exchange, Beggar and I continued for months talking privately about the issue. Those were relatively happy times, in 2007, when we didn't suspect that things were going to become so dark as they did with the DL's forceful actions, forcing the monasteries to split in 2008. When these unfortunate times started, at the Winter Retreat 2007/2008, Beggar became extremely active trying to stop the DL's actions and help the monks that were so incredibly attacked. Then he decided to disappear from the website. We still miss him. Wherever you are, Beggar, how I would like to go on debating with you.


Dear friends,

First of all let me greet you all on this day of the coming of Lord Buddha from Ganden Paradise to our world. Secondly, let me tell you that it's been quite awhile that I've been observing this website and it's not without hesitations that I decided to send you a message. May be it's the influence of this most holy day that decided me and, friends in Dharma, please don't be hurt by what I might express here even if it sounds harsh. It's my love for sentient beings and utter devotion to the teachings that force me to write.
Of course, this website is very dear and beautiful, since it contains so many images of our holy King Protector, and so many words that are intended for his praise. I thank you from my heart he/she/they, whoever it is that is doing it, and also those who send messages of support.
Nevertheless, there is in this website an element of wrong view that doesn't in any way serve the holy Dharma nor shows any respect towards the Buddhas in general nor towards our Je Rinpoche nor towards the Protector of his teachings. It doesn't show respect, neither, for the Dalai Lama, contrary to the expressed intentions of the writers, because it perverts entirely the wishes and purposes that he has so clearly expressed and maintained year after year. It doesn't show respect towards the unknown number of victims of the religious persecution unleashed by the Dalai Lama against his fellow citizens, victims whose destiny is either ignored or treated with an extraordinary frivolity. I say frivolity lacking a better word. How to call the behaviour that you show, of praising the one who started years ago such incredible actions against our Deity, our Teachings, our fellow practitioners and to this day doesn't relent but continues such actions? When you praise the Dalai Lama in his actions against the Protector's practitioners, using the reason of skillful means, I don't think you understand the meaning of skillful means. Friends, it is true that the Buddhas can take the appearance of anything, including demons, to benefit sentient beings but when they do it, they never play a double game, they never do something conventionally wrong and at the same time proclaim, or make people to proclaim or even suspect that they are Buddhas, they never show their colours, otherwise they would be destroying the very skillful means they are using. Let's use the example of Devadatta, mentioned in your website. It is a view that I heard mentioning by worthy people, that the evil cousin of Lord Buddha was a somehow realized being that was playing a role to serve the purposes of the Buddha. But you can go and try finding one single piece of scripture or utterance of a Lama saying that what Devadatta did was good, or skillful, or wise. What Devadatta did was horrible and nobody that I know of is going to praise him for his actions. Lord Buddha said he loved Devadatta as much as he loved his own son, but he never said a word of praise, never. Are we more intelligent and wise than the Buddha?
But let's be simple, let's not complicate matters. What you are doing in your website, of praising the Dalai Lama for his actions, interpreting that they are skillful means to spread the Dharma –not less!– is a lokta, a wrong view in relation to the Buddha and to all the Buddhas. Because, friends, what is the main and foremost thing that the Buddhas do for us? They cannot take our bad karma with their holy hands and make it disappear, they cannot do that. Instead, they teach us what to keep and what to abandon. What to do and what not to do. So, friends, if you go about proclaiming that what is wrong is in reality good because it is skillful means, you are attacking, destroying the compassionate actions of our Buddhas. Please, do not do that. For your sake and for the sake of those who are going to acquire such wrong view.
Of course, it is an almost unbearable pain to see the one who we used to contemplate as the beacon of Dharma, we poor Westerners who put our faith there, we poor Tibetans who worshipped our leader, do things that are not in accord with Dharma. It is terribly painful. Awful. And it feels good to find justifications, it helps soothe our pain. But that is not the way to go about it.
The way to go about it is not to judge the person, the Dalai Lama. We have to be very clear about his actions, but even mentally we have to remain silent about him. Friends, only the Buddha is able to judge a person, and this is true both for the positive and the negative. You cannot condemn him, but neither can you justify him, otherwise you would be proclaiming yourselves a Buddha.
Also, if we suffered from his actions, we have our most holy teachings of Lojong, and we can remember our Geshe Langri Tangpa and say of the Dalai Lama, he is my utmost Mahayana teacher, because he is teaching me by this suffering he inflicts on me, that I did the same to others in the past. And because he is thus helping me to eliminate my bad karma. This Kadampa view is perfect, it doesn't judge the person, only the effects his actions have on me. And these I can choose, and I have a perfect instruction for choosing, the Lojong.
Enough. It's late, and I said already too many words. Thank you to those who had the patience for reading so far.
May your highest purpose become true, for the benefit of our beloved sentient beings, and may all things be good and happy and wonderful and perfect and joyous and you name it ... for all.


From Beggar to a friend: In your letter in our guest book you pointed out our wrong view of calling HH the Dalai Lama's policy regarding Dorje Shugden as skillful means. Now if we adopt your point as it is it leads directly to the extreme view that His Holiness has failed us, betrayed us, is not compassionate, not wise, and of no benefit, because if it is true, in your point there is no room for any others. You are really attacking His Holiness and asking us to believe he has become a demon, much like others are attacking us about our dharmapala.

From a friend to Beggar,

Dear precious one,

No, if you adopt my point (that you should suppress your lauding HHDL for what he did with regard our sublime Protector, because by praising that deed you are destroying in the mind of the common folk the basic enlightened actions of the Buddhas, which are to tell us what to keep and what to abandon), you would not be falling in any extreme views. To suppress the praise of what should never be applauded doesn't force you to say harsh things about HHDL. Just tell the facts and do not criticise, neither praise what is not worthy of praise. Why jump to the extreme view that he is a demon? There are many other things that you could say, instead. For instance, that because he is the political leader of the Tibetans he thought it was ok to unify the Tibetans behind a common "enemy". Bad idea, may be, but not of a demon, just of a politician. All the Tibetans I know -Sangha and lay people- maintain that this issue of our Protector is "politics, not religion". That's common sense, not extreme views. Anyway, what is a lokta, a wrong view, is to tell people that what is wrong is good. It destroys the Buddha's actions for sentient beings. You can worship HHDL as much as you want in the privacy of your heart, but in public, please worship him if you want, applaud him, rejoice about him, praise him...  for what is correct: that he's been the champion of the Tibetan nation in the world at large, that he is for so many -not necessarily buddhists- the face of compassion, a beacon of hope, a bridge between religion and the scientific minds, a delightful gentleman when he chooses to show his carisma, and so many other pleasant things. But again and again, let's not praise what in the conventional field is wrong, to do it is not Dharma, even if to some it sounds like a nice view. One should not confuse people about the formidable matter of karma, about what actions are virtuous and what actions are not virtuous.
Let's talk instead about the wonders of our Protector and the teachings of our blessed holy Je Tsongkapa.


icy

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2010, 09:07:57 AM »
Thank you HoneyDakini.  Your suggestions are useful. 

icy

prodorjeshugden

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2016, 02:06:24 PM »
It is really clear that the Dalai Lama's claims on how Dorje Shugden is bad is baseless. Why? Because the Dalai Lama has refused to say much about the  ban besides Dorje shugden is bad Dorje Shugden is bad Dorje Shugden is bad...  The dalai Lama's teachers practiced Dorje Shugden, so if the Dalai Lama proclaims that Dorje Shugden is evil it means that all of the teachings from his teachers are tainted (since they practiced a evil spirit) Since the Dalai Lama  learned from those Lama's whose teachings were wrong, it means that he himself is also wrong.

So is the Dalai Lama wrong or is Dorje Shugden wrong?

James Bond

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2016, 02:38:50 AM »
I agree with you 100% DharmapalasDharma! Thank you for explaining your arguement clearly and in a way I could easily understand.

What you have said regarding whether or not the Dalai Lamas arguments are justifies makes complete sense. If there isn't sufficient and logical reasoning behind the ban and behind what the Dalai Lama says, then he shouldn't be listened to. I understand that many people would trust the Dalai Lama despite him not showing evidence, and that is the problem here. Also yes, a deity shouldn't be the one banned just because of the actions of individuals. The deity would not have even been the problem to start with, the problem would be from the individuals. The banning of the deity, Dorje Shugden is false and should never have happened.

dharmacrazy79

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Re: Dorje Shugden Never Was A Previous Issue
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2016, 06:25:24 AM »
I think it is very easy to determine whether the ban is "right" or justifiable. Just take a look at results.

One of the reasons for the ban is to keep unity and harmony in Vajrayana Buddhism. However, take a look at the results of the ban: the dislodged and stateless Tibetan refugee community is further broken up into Dorje Shugden and anti-Dorje Shugden groups. This refutes the argument that banning Dorje Shugden will lead to a united Tibetan society. In fact, this break and disharmony shows that world that the CTA is incapable of managing a country and a nation.

Leading to the next excuse the CTA gave to validate the ban: Dorje Shugden threatens the Free Tibet cause. When the CTA display such elementary and incompetent abilities to manage its people, it creates doubt in world leaders to want to give Tibet back to Tibetan leadership that seem to still embrace the serfdom mentality. Additionally, China's success in developing T.A.R by providing Tibetans living there with better education and infrastructure combined with the non-progress in CTA's causes proves that they are China is a better leader for the long-term benefit of T.A.R. Hence, before the ban, CTA and the Dalai Lama's credential is certainly higher than it is toady after the affliction of a ban.

The Dalai Lama claims that Dorje Shugden will shorten his life. Today Dorje Shugden is practiced in more households then ever in history and His Holiness is 80 years old and still strong enough to travel to meet students. His Holiness also gave premonition that he will live until 113 years old this lifetime. This state of reality in itself refutes this last claim.

This shows that there are other reasons to impose the ban on Dorje Shugden that is not communicated by the CTA of His Holiness. Since we are unable to understand that depth of this spiritual "play", it would be best for us to focus on Dharma and not become distracted with politic.