Reincarnation

[Middleway]

I'm with Trinlay on this - inferential cognizers are our first valid minds towards the Dharma. Tibetans for instance may have shed loads of faith & lots of correct beliefs, but maybe it's being satisfied with these that led them to be so easily conned by the DL. Whatever though, anecdotes have their place, but for those who want to become enlightened they're not enough by themselves.

[LosangKhyentse]

Talking about "convincing western minds" these videos are actually done in the West! Not to generalize it, but I gather there must be interest in this phenomena shown through this anecdote. Could be just sheer coincidence, but I've met quite a few people (various races and nationalities) who would bring up the topic of reincarnation after realizing that I'm a Buddhist...which usually leads to other aspects of Buddhism related subjects and conversations around their search for spirituality.

I find Tsem Lama to be very skillful and compassionate to post these videos on his personal blogsite to introduce this topic to his worldwide followers.

Dangerously, uncontrollably blown by karma and afflictions,
May I quickly come to full realization that I am indebted to all beings, my kind mothers,
That I will completely turn around my destructive ways,
Only to live for others

in refuge to my kind lama, yidam and protector
DSFriend

Thank you DSfriend. I enjoyed the videos also and it opened minds. I will watch again. Those who can be will be, those who cannot be convinced, it still exists. It doesn't matter at all. They can criticize and use regionality again. It is ok.

TK

[honeydakini]

Fully agree with you there, HD.... skilful means is crucial to sharing Dharma... unfortunately a lot of us are not so skilful. Your teacher, on the other hand, sounds incredibly humble and skilful. (did he use the word 'ass'? LOL!) I guess that's why he's an incarnate Lama and we're not.. or rather, I'm not, anyway!

love
Kate

oh gosh no, he didn't say "ass"! But you know what I mean...

If we believe in reincarnation, then we are all reincarnations of something - a frog, a Geshe, a normal schmuck. So what bearing does it have on where we are, who we are and what we're doing now? If we don't believe in reincarnation, the same question applies - so where are you, who are you and what are you doing now that is of any real substance to yours and others lives? At the end of the day, people really don't care who you were before - they care about how you are now... and we care about how we are in the future!

What's more important in the discussion of reincarnation is where go to next, rather than where we were before. I think there's been this glamourised idea of pass life regressions etc where people have these fantasies that they Cleopatra or some royalty or great celebrity of the past. (But uh, who cares because you're not them anymore and what are you doing this life that even matches the deeds of that life?). Knowing who we were before doesn't help us, but contemplating on where we could possible go afterwards (downwards? Upwards? float about in that not-quite-so-pleasant place called Bardo?) helps us tremendously in righting our action and behaviour right now.

[harrynephew]

Reading everyone's comment and watching some of Tsem Rinpoche's videos in indeed inspiring that reincarnation becomes a motivation and tool for us to become better people and not fall back behind with society, our families and of course our spiritual well being. I'm sure there's been countless proof that reincarnation exists whether we like it or not and whether we believe in it or not. It rules our entire lives and becomes more than what we think it is in time.

I feel that these videos even though superficial, carries great impact in both Western and Eastern communities as they become a source of both inspiration and guide for some. I have also heard that people are in awe when they watch these videos as they know it is true for a fact and they revolve their lives around this experience of their past which I think takes up time and really is unneccessary.

There are also scholastic study on this as mentioned by TK. It is so profound and I don't think it's dry at all!!!

I find it informative and interesting to read as it makes me understand the logic behind it more!

I'm gonna take a second read and post up more!

cheers,

H1N1

[WoselTenzin]

I don't agree with this, trying to show reincarnation through various anecdotes won't convince Western minds.  Implicit inference is one of the Buddhist methods of inquiry and is much stronger proof, this is Dharmakirti's way of proving it.  Not only that, this is the foundational reason for establishing all sentient beings as having been one's mother. 

Yes, there are anecdotal stories that help show reincarnation is actual, but these are supplemental that support the required logical view.  If only stories are given, it seems like borderline phenomena only we see on History Channel and other pet conspiracy shows.  Otherwise, no offense to anyone, when too many "stories' are portrayed that it seems that someone is trying to convince people for some reason.  Although I'm personally sure this isn't the motive, but it will look self-promotional to many people when a reincarnate lama is trying to convince people of reincarnation.

Dear Trinley Kalsang

From your few postings in the forum, I gathered that you are quite fixated in your views.  Eg We should bring newbies to Dharma via meditational classes and not unconventional mean likes distributing brochures.  Implicit inference to explain reincarnation is a much stronger proof to explain reincarnation and I am sure the list goes on.  These are not invalid methods but hey, not every sentient being in this universe is a replica of you.  Like the other methods don’t appeal to you,  the methods you subscribe to may not appeal to others as well.  You would do yourself a great favour by not being so stereotyped as this is a sign of extreme grasping to one’s view if case you haven’t noticed, a complete anti-thesis of what you are trying to achieve assuming you are a real Buddhist, the destruction of self grasping.

You mentioned that “trying to show reincarnation through various anecdotes won't convince Western minds”.  Have you not noticed that most of the people involved in the video clips are westerners.  Is this not itself an explicit proof??  Really, you should really let go and relax.  Don’t be so narrow in your views.

[WoselTenzin]

Eg We should bring newbies to Dharma via meditational classes and not unconventional mean likes distributing brochures.

I intentionally made no judging comment on the brochures, please indicate the offending comment.

Dear Trinley Kalsang,

My sincere apologies for misquoting you in this instance.  It was someone else who mentioned that.

[LXF]

I do belief in REINCARNATION 100%
The belief make me check my mind daily and be a better person.

Quote from H1N1 :
Tsem Rinpoche's videos in indeed inspiring that reincarnation becomes a motivation and tool for us to become better people and not fall back behind with society, our families and of course our spiritual well being. I'm sure there's been countless proof that reincarnation exists whether we like it or not and whether we believe in it or not. It rules our entire lives and becomes more than what we think it is in time.

  Thanks for posting the link of Tsem Rinpoche's videos, will watch again and again as a reminder

[Buddha]

I am under the belief that rebirth is the result of ignorance and is uncontrolled and reincarnation is the result of wisdom and compassion and can be controlled. I am not playing on words or trying to be a smart arse but they are  completely different things.

May all the sufferings of all living beings ripen solely upon me. Shantideva.

[DSFriend]

I am under the belief that rebirth is the result of ignorance and is uncontrolled and reincarnation is the result of wisdom and compassion and can be controlled. I am not playing on words or trying to be a smart arse but they are  completely different things.

May all the sufferings of all living beings ripen solely upon me. Shantideva.

A warm welcome to Rattle That Cage. It's quite common that these two words, "rebirth" and "reincarnation" are used interchangeably especially in non-buddhist writings.

For us who have been so fortunate to meet the holy Dharma in this precious human life, let's get out and let's get everyone else outta' here (samsara)

DSFriend

[Midakpa]

Since beginningless time, we've had countless rebirths. So what have we not done? What have we not become? Gods, demi-gods, human beings, animals, hungry ghosts, hell beings. We've been there, done that. If we realise this, it should help us overcome a lot of the worldly concerns.

[icy]

In one way I agree with DS Friend we should get everyone out there out of samsara but we should not forget to get outselves out of samasara before we would be effective to get others out of samsara.

icy

[Buddha]

A warm welcome to Rattle That Cage. It's quite common that these two words, "rebirth" and "reincarnation" are used interchangeably especially in non-buddhist writings.

For us who have been so fortunate to meet the holy Dharma in this precious human life, let's get out and let's get everyone else outta' here (samsara)

DSFriend

Thanks for the welcome, i'll introduce myself when i get a few minutes, I have one wish, well i have a few but my favorite one i'm sure you'll be familiar with.

"For as long as space exists
and for as long as living beings remain in samsara
for that long may i too remain
to dispel the sufferings of the world."

My other favourite one apart from the Bodhichitta wish is

"May all the suffering of all living beings ripen SOLELY upon me."

Both from the Bodhisattvacharyavitara

[LosangKhyentse]

A warm welcome to Rattle That Cage. It's quite common that these two words, "rebirth" and "reincarnation" are used interchangeably especially in non-buddhist writings.

For us who have been so fortunate to meet the holy Dharma in this precious human life, let's get out and let's get everyone else outta' here (samsara)

DSFriend

Thanks for the welcome, i'll introduce myself when i get a few minutes, I have one wish, well i have a few but my favorite one i'm sure you'll be familiar with.

"For as long as space exists
and for as long as living beings remain in samsara
for that long may i too remain
to dispel the sufferings of the world."

My other favourite one apart from the Bodhichitta wish is

"May all the suffering of all living beings ripen SOLELY upon me."

Both from the Bodhisattvacharyavitara

Yes welcome!

May I gently suggest you read all the old threads slowly so you can learn quite many things.

Thank you.
TK

[honeydakini]

In one way I agree with DS Friend we should get everyone out there out of samsara but we should not forget to get outselves out of samasara before we would be effective to get others out of samsara.

icy

There is quite a line line between the two motivations - focusing on getting ourselves out of samsara first is likened to the Hinayana path. The Mahayana path - that we wish to be liberated for the sake of all sentient beings and to get everyone else out of samsara - naturally includes the former path as well.

When you develop that sincere wish to help others and all sentient beings, you yourself is included in that - you are a sentient being too! Your actions will natural accord and follow a path of both wisdom and compassion, that not only liberates yourself from the ties of samsara, but also helps you to develop the method and wisdom to help others.

You achieve "two for the price of one", as it were!

[DSFriend]

Talking about "convincing western minds" these videos are actually done in the West! Not to generalize it, but I gather there must be interest in this phenomena shown through this anecdote.

Yes, there is a level of fascination in the West, but most people don't have enough traction to make it into a solid concrete belief.  It's not the point of these shows to convince anyone, they just "entertain" the possibility.  So these stories do appeal to people (there is capitalist demand putting on the TV afterall), but most people do not bet much on it.  And these shows do reflect the current status of science on this point, that there is not much to proof it at the moment, nor is there currently a lot within the domain of science (yet) to disprove it.

I like what you brought up that "that there is not much to proof it at the moment, nor is there currently a lot within the domain of science (yet) to disprove it"

Isn't it an irony that people actually make up their own believes without any basis and "demands"  the whole world, science, the spiritual masters all to provide proofs before and iota of believe arise?

Ok...I was like that big time and am definitely still working to crumble my make believe reality due to ignorance. 

thanks
DSFriend