Divination methods of Dorje Shugden

[Vajraprotector]

I was unaware of this debate going on on the forum!

I can see both sides.  I too feel a little uncomfortable about divination as, like Tantra, it can be misused for mundane purposes.  I remember reading Je Pabongkhapa who said that if we want to know what our future is going to be like, all we need to do is to look at our present actions. 

It's also not very clear where divination and oracles fit into the lamrim, I get that too.  It's a warning that we need to be impeccable in our motivation.  Great Lamas like Trijang Dorjechang could use divination to help others because they had realized bodhichitta and so all their actions were great work for sentient beings.  I, on the other hand, have too many delusions and too many distractions so it would be dangerous for me to get involved in this.  I remember reading that Je Rinpoche trained in Tibetan medical methods and was a very good doctor, but he felt that even this was giving into worldly concerns and he appeared to regret doing it.  Pure lamrim practice is the best insurance policy for our own and other's happiness - I truly believe this. Having said this, I rejoice in TK's retreats and knowledge of divination.

I am very surprised to find the negative reaction to practices like divination or oracles etc. Just because it’s not in the lamrim doesn’t mean it is not valid.

And dear lineageholder, for discussion sake, I would like to quote you that you said “like Tantra, it can be misused for mundane purposes”.  Well, even monk robes can be misused for mundane purposes – you should visit Asia where some don monk robes to get donations!
The fact is, divination methods (although it was made known here), you cannot practice it on your own without a Guru. And even if you wish to, perhaps your Guru might not think you are qualified. It is just like Tantra/ tantric practices.

I rejoice that TK has put up the methods so that we can all be aware that it’s not just some mystical initiation going on and ‘wa la’ the initiated now has superpowers to get answers from the God.

Sorry to be bitchy, but how many DS practitioners here were actually initiated to do the divination – ONE, TK. How many people were instructed by their Gurus to go read the lamrim & practice MORE?  Think of this like ‘filtering’ for Tantric practices. Not EVERYBODY gets initiated to do Tantra, although tonnes of books related to Tantra has flooded the bookshelves all over the world. Tantra and these types of practices cannot be “bought” from a bookstore.
Pure lamrim practice is the BEST INSURANCE policy  and that one cannot go wrong simply because you can do Lamrim practice even without a Guru and through self-study. But things like divination, Tantra etc, you can’t.
I wonder why is it the parallel of divination practice with Tantra has been drawn, but there was no discussion on how these practices are being transmitted in a similar way like Tantra. 

[DharmaDefender]

I am very surprised to find the negative reaction to practices like divination or oracles etc. Just because it’s not in the lamrim doesn’t mean it is not valid.

And dear lineageholder, for discussion sake, I would like to quote you that you said “like Tantra, it can be misused for mundane purposes”.  Well, even monk robes can be misused for mundane purposes – you should visit Asia where some don monk robes to get donations!
The fact is, divination methods (although it was made known here), you cannot practice it on your own without a Guru. And even if you wish to, perhaps your Guru might not think you are qualified. It is just like Tantra/ tantric practices.

I rejoice that TK has put up the methods so that we can all be aware that it’s not just some mystical initiation going on and ‘wa la’ the initiated now has superpowers to get answers from the God.

You're right in saying that just because something doesn't exist in the lamrim, doesn't mean it isn't valid...that is akin to saying other traditions are not valid, because they don't follow the teachings set out in the lamrim.

I would add that the fact is, ANYTHING (whether tantra or not) can be misused for mundane purposes if the practitioner's motivation is a little off-centre. Even something as 'simple' as a black tea can be misused for a mundane purpose - how many people do you know offer black tea so their luck goes up, their nan is cured, their child passes an exam, their business becomes better? At the end of the day, no matter how holy the method, if the motivation is stained, so the entire action is tainted.

And I rejoice along with you re: TK's post. The fact TK has posted the methods shows that there is a method for it, and it isn't something just plucked out from the sky...and that it IS something attainable for everyone, if they put their hearts and minds to it, and weren't doing it just for themselves because that sort of motivation is impermanent.

Thank you honeydakini and WoselTenzin for your explanation. I find it weird why is it that there are much debate about practices or things that are not considered 'mainstream' or scholarly in this forum, e.g. divination, oracles etc. I mean any practice has its value and I am sure masters who kept these practices alive have their reasons to keep them and pass on their lineages.

Glad that this is still a democratic forum!

I recently had a conversation with a friend about this because I suggested Setrap's practice and he just couldn't get his head around it, despite being strong in his devotion to Lama Tsongkhapa (I didn't push it, Tsongkhapa's good enough right? ).

I guess it's a cultural thing - some people simply don't believe that deities such as Setrap exist, but find it easier to believe that Lama Tsongkhapa and his teachings existed because he was an actual historical person. Likewise, some find it more difficult to believe in divinations and oracles, and prefer to focus on teachings they can apply directly to themselves (e.g. Eight Verses of Mind Transformation is something anyone can practise as it lacks any esoteric aspects).

Of course, it's not something I understand because if you believe Lama Tsongkhapa existed and was 100% valid in all he did, saw and taught, then you also believe he saw visions of Manjushri. So why be so selective in which deities you believe exist, and you believe don't (e.g. Manjushri exists, but Setrap doesn't)? Likewise, if you believe Tsongkhapa had attained Enlightenment (and therefore omniscience) and could see the route the monasteries would take with divinations and oracles, and he knew those practices were of no benefit, why did he not ban them outright?

But to each their own...I definitely think that acceptance of the validity of divinations and oracles is a cultural thing.

[icy]

Seems like divination is a dying art.  Wonder if it is due to the high qualification one must have in order to do it or people can't access to it.

[bufan]

As it seems that the topic has shifted to DIVINATION / LAMRIM, I would like to share the following.

From my little knowledge of the Lamrim, the headings that I found most useful to my practice (and even more so in the past few days) is within the 2nd Major Heading: GREATNESSES OF THE DHARMA (there are 4 greatnesses).
It goes as follows:
1. to realize that all the teachings are without contradiction. (thus -harmonious)
2. to see the scriptures as instructions. (turn the teachings into practice)
3. to easily discover the true thinking of the Buddha. (gain realizations)
4. to save ourselves from the worst possible thing we could do. (that is: abandon Dharma)

Wihout the realization of the first greatness the second, third and fourth are faulty (they are not real).

Everytime I am made to deal with something challenging by my teacher, I try to remember the essential importance of the first greatness and I focus on my guru devotion. After all, if my teacher would never challenge me, he would not truly be my teacher.

It is in that way that I looked at the topic of divination when confronted to it by my teacher for the first time.
With an open mind, and faith (faith in my guru being truly-fully-inmistakably knowledgable an skillful).

I hope this will help others.

[thaimonk]

Seems like divination is a dying art.  Wonder if it is due to the high qualification one must have in order to do it or people can't access to it.

It's not dying. It's alive and well within the Tibetan community. There are many famed Geshes and Tulkus doing accurate divinations for many daily even up till today. It's just will you commit to the actual practices involved. The practices are not specifically for divination but divination becomes a side 'benefit'.

[vinayafan]

Dear Trinlay, there are many supportive or periheral practices or aids to physical and mental health to quicken or smoothen our spiritual path which are not mentioned in the Lamrim.There is no book that can cover everything to suit everyone in different environments.This is one very good reason why we need a Master or Guru.
Maybe a student is suffering from memory loss , and the Guru advices him to take some gingko or similar herbs to counter that problem. Just because the Lamrim has no such advice does not make it invalid for the Guru to prescribe it to his student. I believe a lot of Tibetan masters are very good in the healing arts besides divination, weather control and other prowess. Tibetan masters learn and harness whatever energy or knowledge in order to serve the purpose of gaining enlightenment.That's how committed they are to what they believe in and creating the right causes always.
In a way its like Bruce Lee. His approach is to have no fixed method or philosophy in fighting so that he can have all methods and options to deal with an opponent.

I was not very sure what are the 3 roots of Vajrayana which I often come across . Now I know definitively its the Lama/Guru, the Yidam and the Protector. Thank you TK for revealing this clearly.

[kurava]

I used to be sceptical in regards of divination. I viewed the practice as superstitious.

After I followed my Guru who uses divination to help many people who found themselves in situations that are beyond logical reasoning or medical help. I began to see and accept that divination methods as a  way for high Lamas to manifest their compassion and skillful means.

Buddhists accept the 6 realms. Then why not harness the energies of the divine to help people in difficult situations? The results will depend on how pure is the motivation of the person doing the divination and how strong is the faith of the person requesting for the divination. Once a result is delivered , to experience the benefits the person that asks for the divination should follow the prescribed practice or solution wholeheartedly.

[pgdharma]

Divination is not a dying art. I have seen my Guru, out of his compassion, doing divination to help those in dire needs. How clear the results of the divinations will be based on how clean one’s samaya is to one’s Guru and the trust and faith one has on one’s Guru.

[Losang_Tenpa]

I am going to see Laka Rinpoche next week for a divination. I want to ask what prayers and practices might be helpful for my mother who is sick.

[WisdomBeing]

I am going to see Laka Rinpoche next week for a divination. I want to ask what prayers and practices might be helpful for my mother who is sick.

Dear Tenzin Sungrab,

It's lovely to see your faith in divinations, that you would even trust your mother's health in it. I find it inspirational. Would you care to share what made you believe in divinations if it's not too personal?

I will also do prayers for your mother's health and wish her all the best.

[Losang_Tenpa]

Much of my faith in divination stems from how I have witnessed the results of divination play out in the lives of others.
In particular, I have heard many amazing stories about Laka Rinpoche and his ability to read into the tendrel (dependent relationship) of a given situation and give advice based on these factors. He often gives advice relating to which prayers and practices will be helpful in clearing obstacles and what causes will assist in bringing certain projects to fruition.

Also, many of the teachers who I respect also have great faith in divination. If it fits into the worldview of those who have such extensive Dharma experience, then it is something that I can put my trust in.

[WisdomBeing]

Thank you for sharing Tenzin Sungrab.

I was just wondering...

is it considered not appropriate to ask a Rinpoche to do divinations as a High Lama's role is to teach the Dharma? Does a Rinpoche need to do divinations if he or she's an attained being with clairvoyance anyway?

[lightning]

I know of some lay people able to receive help from Dorje Shugden 24/7 and He is someone who guards his samaya vows purely. Sometimes these people are able to have connections with divine assistance that they able to provide answers even without casting divination oracles. Basically, they have went above that level and at times may require to cast divination oracles to re-confirm answers.

[beggar]

Thank you for sharing Tenzin Sungrab.

I was just wondering...

is it considered not appropriate to ask a Rinpoche to do divinations as a High Lama's role is to teach the Dharma?

I think you need to think why you are asking that Rinpoche for a divination. If you're asking for some worldly matter - like your business, relationship etc - then I would think it is not appropriate to ask a Rinpoche for divination. You totally degrade and lower down the lama to just being a fortune teller or just helping you on some really superficial level, that may not be beneficial to you at all in the long term. The lama can offer you so much more than that with all the knowledge and teachings he has to share.

Does a Rinpoche need to do divinations if he or she's an attained being with clairvoyance anyway?

yes, they are attained beings with clairvoyance, that's for sure. But sometimes students or normal people with a very low level of perception may not really believe that their lama has clairvoyance. There is a tendency of people to believe a "God" rather than a person who looks just like them. They believe that maybe there are limitations to what the lama will say, so the lama performs a divination for the sake of the students/lay people who may not believe him. It is quite sad that it has come to this, and that students don't fully trust their teachers

[iloveds]

Hey Tenzin,

How did your divination turn out?

I also had divination done when my mother was critically ill. Rinpoche prescribed a small puja in the monastery to be done by a couple of monks along with candle offerings and also 1million Tara mantras.

From a hopeless situation she came back from the brink. That was 7years ago and shes still going strong.