Divination methods of Dorje Shugden

[DSFriend]

Who on god's green earth has time for this?     It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.

Thus, not all of us are doing mo. Well, we all have 24hrs in a day. If someone else can and we can't...doesn't it tell us what Dharma we are practicing... Buddha Dharma or Worldly Dharma.

I rejoice very much that TK has engaged in such intensive retreats and share it in this forum for us who has very little time for Buddha Dharma...

best wishes always
DSFriend

[honeydakini]

I appreciate that TK has taken out so much time to write such an extensive post detailing the steps and retreats that go into divination. Clearly, as he has also mentioned, it is not just about achieving the "powers" to do divination but are very powerful in themselves as highly blessed and sacred retreats. The joyous effort, patience and faith required of such practice is a lesson in itself for many of us!

I find it quite offensive for a fellow forum member like Trinley Kelsang to say "Who on god's green earth has time for this?   Huh  It's hard to find time even to do a kangso" which is just unnecessarily sarcastic and downright rude!

The thread begins as someone's query about a particular practice and has turned into a discussion about whether this practice is relevant or not! How silly, This discussion itself is so unnecessary and such a dampener! I feel quite sad about this. We are here to question, share and learn, not to be sarcastic and write dismissive put-downs.

This isn't just about having a go at Trinley Kelsang but a call for everyone to be aware of how we're posting and the tone or motivation with which we are posting. I appreciate everyone's contributions of knowledge and experiences here - let's keep it friendly

[DSFriend]

I'm not really sure what the point of talking about these uncommon practices and related qualifications publicly is exactly, it may not be appropriate.  It may attract people interested in setting up their own little mo business, etc.

Dear Trinley Kalsang,

I have done the whole process of retreats (Tsongkapa/Yamantaka/Shugden with fire pujas) over ten years back as I described above. And I did not do it for mo purposes. I made the time for it and it was one of the best times in my life. I took 3.5 full months out of my schedule and engage in each retreat systematically under the guidance of a Geshe who resides in Europe now. I finished it all in 3.5 months straight. I did three to four sessions a day and it was tough but I would do it again.

The point of talking about this is to show that there is a system of practices to follow when you wish to do mo to make sure it is accurate. Just like the lengthe and extent of practices would discourage you, it would discourage other people. Secondly, I wrote out the details because RatnaShugden on the post ask regarding mo, so I took the time to write it out and share with them upon their requests. I would hope it would be appreciated. And it was by RatnaShugden, and I am glad. I wrote out the procedure, but each procedure requires the study of the commentary and detailed methods to engage in each retreat, those are lengthy and not easy. Setting up a 'mo' shop is not easy at all.

Dear TK
On the contrary, i am very encouraged after reading your post and knowing how intensive the retreat is. The reason I am encouraged is because many others have done it. You have done it. And why not I.

If Lama Tsongkhapa can do 3.5 million prostrations + mandala + everything else under the God's Green Earth...i can at least push myself to do more than I am right now...

My wish is to have a stable mind through prelim practices, free of 8 Worldly concerns..that I may be ready to engage in retreats to gain attainments. I have enough vertigo spinning endlessly in this samsaric life cycle...and so often feel helpless not able to truly help others...

... DSFriend

[Admin]

Dear TK,

We the administrators of dorjeshugden.com find your writeup on Dorje Shugden divination very interesting, informative, detailed and helpful. Whether people want to do divination or not is not the point. The point is it is a great addition of knowledge towards Dorje Shugden’s practices or related. We will put it up in Dharma Readings on the main page, and we will also thumbnail this thread to be re-read again by people, because nobody has come up with this type of information before. We thank you very much and we hope you have no objection.

Thank you.

Admins

[Vajraprotector]

Who on god's green earth has time for this?    It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.

Someone who is truly committed and willing to devote their lives to benefiting others with Dorje Shugden's practice? I imagine it would be someone who doesn't let laziness and the fear of 'giving up' their current lifestyle affect their resolve to do his practice.

I hope TrinleyKalsang you are just joking. Perhaps it's your work on the be bum text and other various research that has taken up most of your time?

Anyway, it is quite a sweeping statement to say that  “Who on god's green earth has time for this?”
Need I remind everyone that Lord Buddha was on god’s green earth who HAD TIME to meditate under the Bodhi tree for long time- surely we have time for things that are important to us? The same with all the great masters who has so much responsibilities and work to do, and they managed to go through the procedures to be trained up to be able to do divination for the benefit of OTHERS.

You should rejoice because you are very fortunate to be born in a country where you went to school and are able to study the Dharma texts, but what about those who do not have the same opportunity? They deserve the Dharma too. Surely you don’t expect someone who hasn’t gone to school or illiterate to be able to study the Lamrim on their own and believe in cause & effect?  There are reasons why certain practices are available for people due to the kindness of the Gurus, including divination.

You are great with scholarly studies of texts, and please continue to bring benefit to others by your generosity of sharing these knowledge with others, but also let others share their practices that surely have brought benefits to others. Buddha Shakyamuni gave 84,000 teachings for people to reach enlightenment. His methods include meditation, the study of philosophy, psychology, skillful debate, and above all, the cultivation of a pure view in all situations. All Buddhist methods develop mind's inherent richness and clarity enabling people of varying interests and abilities to avoid suffering and find lasting happiness.

I don’t remember Shakyamuni Buddha said the only way to enlightenment is through the Lamrim!

[LosangKhyentse]

Well, it's just that I cannot find which stage in the lam rim divination is.

This probably one of the most profound sentences written on this forum! Totally in line with the purest Lam Rim tradition of Pabongkha Dorjechang which unfortunately goes totally unoticed at the level of this forum. Sad!

Dear alexis,
Stop indirectly insulting everyone on this forum just because they don't agree with your views. "This is the MOST PROFOUND STATEMENT WRITTEN ON THIS FORUM?'~~~ is this statement in line with dharma and lam rim practices??

Please stop all this degrading. Many profound statements have been made on this forum. I appreciate all of them. They don't have to be in line with what I think, neither do I have to be insultive when they are not.

TK

[harrynephew]

Who on god's green earth has time for this?     It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.

On god's green earth, I found the time and I did the complete retreats with fire pujas over ten years back. I have a very busy schedule and I love doing the full length kangsols. I will make time and do the retreats over again because it is so important. I recieved many benefits from the retreats I can see within my mind. Dorje Shugden is important to me and retreats are a way to open the Dorje Shugden (Buddha) potential within me before it is too late and death takes over.

I know of many others who have also done the same. I enjoyed the retreats (although tough) because I know of their benefits and I make the time.

TK

Dear TK

It is amazing and truly inspiring that you have not only received the highest of the high empowerments of Lama Je Tse Zin Ma, Noble Hero Yamantaka and the Almighty Dorje Shugden! Being able to hear the name of Je Lama is already something so rare and being able to receive His Long life initiation is beyond words that can describe! What more with Yamantaka and Lama Dorje Shugden.

I can picture how hardworking and dedicated u were during the retreats. I have myself done 50,000 Migtsema retreat (a simplified one) and it took me an arduous one week with pains in the back as I am not accustomed to sitting down for incredibly long hours. For you to do all three Manjushris - the Guru, the Yidam and the protector, it is truly amazing. I pray that I may one day do the same and accomplish the qualities of all three.

Thank you also for the brief rundown on the prerequisites of mo divination. It is indeed enlightening as we do not get much exposure to these information in our areas. Probably due to the fact that we have limited merits to be able to access such teachings!

I personally think mo is a side benefit and another means of benefiting the people in need. Especially when an oracle is not around to take trance of the Great King, this would be the next best method.

Other pettiness in life would not be of comparison for the highest thought and attainment - Enlightenment.

Keep up the good work my man!

Cheers,
H1N1

[honeydakini]

Well, it's just that I cannot find which stage in the lam rim divination is.

This probably one of the most profound sentences written on this forum! Totally in line with the purest Lam Rim tradition of Pabongkha Dorjechang which unfortunately goes totally unoticed at the level of this forum. Sad!

Could you comment further for our benefit, TrinleyKalsang, on the importance for practitioners of including all experiences and Dharma practices in one of the topics of the Stages of the Path?

Please!

I think there is no doubt at all of the importance of studying and practising the Lamrim as a basis and firm foundation for all our Dharma practice. I don't think that TK, RatnaShugden etc are in any way challenging that in their discussion about divination, nor have any intention of undermining the importance of the Lamrim.

They are simply sharing and discussing a practice that is widely done and known within this lineage/tradition. Yes, it was not written in the Lamrim, but there were many, many other secret practices /experiences that Tsongkhapa had engaged in that were not documented down in his writings but revealed only later in his secret biography written by his students. There are many higher tantric practices, meditations, visualisations, retreats etc that are not laid down in the Lamrim. This does not diminish the importance of these practices or experiences in any way; just presented and taught in other, different teachings. The basis of course, undisputed, is still found in the Lamrim (and we are advised not to simply engage in the higher teachings without first having a firm and grounded understanding, study and even realisation of the Lamrim).

I don't think that TK / Ratna shugden et al are in any way suggestion that divination replaces or supersedes ANY part of the Lamrim. It is simply an enquiry and a sharing of information on a practice. Surely this should be "allowed" in an open forum and not so quickly dismissed and poohpoohed as "sad".

[honeydakini]

Please stop all this degrading. Many profound statements have been made on this forum. I appreciate all of them. They don't have to be in line with what I think, neither do I have to be insultive when they are not. 

If what I write is not in line with what you think, you don't have to feel insulted, as you said. Thanks.

TK is not saying that "we should not feel insulted". He is saying we shouldn't be insulting towards others, which is clearly what some of you are doing with your very degrading, sarcastic and dismissive one-liners. There's quite a difference there.

It doesn't seem very right that on the one hand you are discussing and promoting the sacred Lamrim, but on the other, you are discussing it in a context and tone of putting down others on the forum, their views and discussions. That's not very Lamrim like! Please everyone, as I said earlier, do consider your motivations and tone as you post.

[Vajraprotector]

Many different kinds of divination methods are practiced by Tibetan Buddhist masters within all four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism.

When these divinations are performed, the practitioner enters into a visualization practice and invokes the energies or blessings of the deity associated with that form of divination. The practitioner is not acting as an oracle who is possessed by a deity, but rather, they are communicating with the wisdom aspect of the deity's mind, which is none other than our own deep mind. This communication can occur through a variety of mediums, such as reading the patterns of crow's flight, rock formations, the throw of dice, or on the surface of a mirror.

The ability to perform divinations for the benefit of others is acquired through intensive retreats under qualified masters and involves sadhana, mantra recitation and strong meditation practices. The motivation for performing divinations must always be pure - done solely to bring relief for the suffering of all beings and not for one's own personal gain or fame.

It is not unusual for Lamas to routinely offer some form of divination as an aspect of their service. Some of the more common forms include divination using a rosary, and dice divination. Other Tibetan divination methods include Dorje Yudronma's Mirror divination; Manjushri, Palden Lhamo, and Tseringma's dice divination; Gesar of Ling Arrow divination, dough ball divinations, dream interpretations, and divinations using butter lamps, shoulder-blades, and stones.

Perhaps it’s because these methods are not widely taught or discussed due to the nature of long & extensive retreats or practices and it requires strict training with teachers who has received that lineage/ training. 

We should rejoice as TK has the good fortune (and put in the EFFORT) to study & practise the divination method verified by Dorje Shugden. It’s because of the great compassion of great masters that they still kept this tradition alive for us to be benefitted.

[Vajraprotector]

Honeydakini,

If you read my remark carefully, in a calm state of mind, you will see that there was not pun or insult directed at anyone in my reply about the profoundness of TrinleyKalsang's remarks.

TK seems to take everything I write personnaly in the most succeptible manner. I cannot tame his mind on his behalf.

I don't make a fixation about what people write on this forum, neither do I loose sleep over it. Maybe TK should do the same...


Thanks for your honeysweet calming voice anyway.

Just a question, if we cannot tame our own mind, how can we tame others?

Also, I thought holy texts such as Lamrim etc is  for us to work towards taming our own mind, not with the purpose of trying to tame others ?

Just something to share from Advice from Atisha’s Heart since the topic is about the Lamrim .

Since you cannot tame the minds of others until you have tamed your own, begin by taming your own mind.

[LosangKhyentse]

TK seems to take everything I write personnaly in the most succeptible manner. I cannot tame his mind on his behalf.

I don't make a fixation about what people write on this forum, neither do I loose sleep over it. Maybe TK should do the same...


Thanks for your honeysweet calming voice anyway.

Dear Alexis,

This is a formal request to you. You need not answer.

From today onwards, please do not comment on anything I post. I will not comment on any of your posts also.

I prefer to have no communications with you whatsoever at this time.

I find your posts very impolite and offensive. I do not have any power to request you to comment or not comment on anyone else, but I respectfully would not like any comments from you.

I will submit this to administration. I fully apologize, but I am very uncomfortable. With folded hands and regrets.

TK

[Big Uncle]

(sorry, would like to talk about divination instead)
Thank you TK for the valuable information regarding Dorje Shugden's mo/divination. We are very privileged to know about a rare lineage and personally, I think people should respect it and not put it down. I think divination is not part of Lamrim but using divination to contact a living Buddha like Dorje Shugden for critical answers... is compassion. Hence, it is Lamrim.

The divination answers obviously will come from Dorje Shugden and it will only work if one has the purest of intentions. Hence, it will not work as a business and I believe Lamas and practitioners do divinations to help people and not make money from them. I personally believe, Dorje Shugden will only bestow answers to those who are sincere to help others.

[Ratna Shugden]

My purpose of making this post is to find out more about practices related to Dorje Shugden, other than those which are quite well-known other than Geshe Kelsang Gyatso's Heart Jewel and Wish-fulfilling Jewel, Infinite Aeons,  Music Delighting the Ocean of Protectors. Naturally one of them is divination. Out of curiosity for it, and after searching the entire internet world on it, I could only find short sentences making very brief statements on it, hence I decided to ask everyone. No one can know everything in the world, and I am one of them. People who have faith in Dorje Shugden can pool their resources together, and everyone can become more knowledgeable about our protector as a result of this, I believe this forum is the right place for this.

I am in no way suggesting that Dorje Shugden's divination method or the answers obtain from it, can substitute or over-ride or challenge the following:

1. Your Spiritual Guides' love for you
2. Your Spiritual Guides' wishes
3. Your Spiritual Guides' personal advice to you
4. Your Spiritual Guides' divination results for you
5. The teachings of the Lamrim, and all other text/Sadhana composed by Je Tsongkhapa
5. Honest and sincere hard work in practicing the Dharma

I merely wanted to understand more about this particular subset of Dorje Shugden's practice, and if it is within my means to practice it everyday to strengthen my bond with Shugden further, maybe I can incorporate this as part of my daily practice or monthly practice. This was because I ignorantly thought that it is as simple as other divination methods available in the market, then I soon realize how wrong I was.

I can also use it as a tool to make divinations for people whom I am trying to help. It may not be necessary for me to reveal to people whom I am helping that I have made a divination on their behalf or reveal the results of divination. It's not about making myself famous or to satisfy my ego. When you are sincere about helping people, people whom you are benefiting may not even realize that you are helping them at all.

Unfortunately I come to realize that this practice is much bigger than I thought, but it gave me another goal to inspire me.

For people who know what Dorje Shugden stands for and his unique mission, which is all of us, we wouldn't even think of using his practices to start a business or for satisfying secular desires.

May we all use this forum for peaceful discussions, so that we can all have an enjoyable time!

[WoselTenzin]

Who on god's green earth has time for this?     It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.

Dear Trinley Kalsang,

No offense to you but your comments only reflect your state of mind.  Of course not everyone will be willing to make time and able to go thru such arduous retreats.  Only very sincere and extremely serious Buddhist practitioners will put himself/herself thru such training in order that he/she can bring benefit to others as a result.  From the procedures of retreat stated by TK, I can imagine it takes tremendous self discipline and endurance to complete such a retreat.  TK did 3-4 sessions a day and completed it in 3.5 months.  That is a very remarkable time to complete a retreat of this nature.  Due to the intensity of this retreat, a lot of purification process will take place resulting in physical pain, illness, emotional and mental challenges for the retretant.  A retretant who is not up to it will most probably give up midway and end up not completing the retreat.  Even before going thru such a retreat, tremendous preparation is required eg getting sponsors to finance the retreat cost, finding a suitable place to conduct the retreat, receiving the initiations and commentaries from the Lama, studying the lengthy commentaries and learning detailed procedures of conducting a retreat , finding attendants to help make preparation during the retreat eg setting up tormas, offering etc.  Anyone without a sincere motivation to engage in such retreat will not even get thru the first stage let alone the retreat proper.

As TK has mentioned the purpose of Tsongkapa, Yamantaka, Dorje Shugden retreats are to clear obstacles to realizing the real non-dualistic nature of the mind and propelling oneself to Liberation which is what all serious Buddhist practitioners are supposed to do anyways.  One does not engage in such sacred retreats with the motivation just to do divination.  To be qualified to do divination as a result is a side benefit.

Why do divination then?  Is divination even Buddhistic to begin with?  Well, for anything to be Buddhistic depends solely on your motivation.  Why do many High Lamas and advanced Buddhist practitioners go thru such retreats and engage in divination?  There are many people out there who encounter problems that cannot be solved with logical thinking eg spirit disturbances, black magic attack, severe sickness and other obstacles due to unexplained karmic results etc.  To be able to divine the future and provide solutions for such problems will help such people tremendously and save them from a lot time, emotional, physical and financial agony.  Great Buddhist practitioners do divination to help these people so that by solving their immediate problems, they can eventually be led to their spiritual path and practice to gain attainments.

Therefore to go through such arduous retreat so that one can do divination to help others can only be motivated by compassion.  Of course not everyone has the circumstances to be able to do such retreats although one may wish one could.  But to brush it off as something trivial or not worth while speaks volume of you.  Also, since you do DS kangso, I presume you are from the Gelugpa tradition.  By saying what you said, are you are implying that our lineage Lamas who went thru all those retreats to be able to do divination has wasted their time on something that is not worth while?  Think before you speak.  To even indirectly disparage someone who has higher merit than you has severe karmic repercussion.  What more if they are your lamas or lineage lamas?