Divination methods of Dorje Shugden

[LosangKhyentse]

A few follow ups on this:
1.  I did a quick scan through the text mentioned and it only mentions one of the requirements TK mentioned as being a requirement (not the whole list of retreats).  But perhaps if we are less clear it is better, because publicly discussing the branch practices is not appropriate. 
2.  In the concentration section of the Pabongkha Rinpoche's Lam Rim he specifically warns against divination, astrology, etc. as distractions for developing single pointedness and realizations.  Even having all of the divination requirements may not be enough, I think some level of clairvoyance is needed to do divinations accurately, but that's my own view.  I have little doubt the lamas that are known to do accurate divinations have some level of clairvoyance.  And we are told clearly that shamatha meditation is the direct cause of developing clairvoyance.
3.  The lam rim includes protectors on the refuge tree, so we take refuge in them.  Also, there are three protectors that are protectors of the three scopes.  Some lamas now say that Dorje Shugden fulfills the purpose protecting the three scopes, so Dorje Shugden is part of the lam rim.  There's more that can be said on this but that's enough for now.  Je Tsongkhapa relied on Dharma Protectors as well, especially Dharmaraja, Mahakala, Vaishravana and even others such as Kshetrapala who removed obstacles from Ganden's destruction.

There are basic retreats you can do to fulfill the necessity for doing mo. And then there are extensive requirements. It is up to the lama of the individual student to guage to do more, the minimum or combinations. There is nothing much to 'check'. Again personally I do not wish to engage in Mo. But I will request it of my lamas.
I did not do the retreats for mo.

Secondly "some lamas say that Dorje Shugden fulfill the purpose of protecting the three scopes so hence Dorje Shugden is part of the lam rim". Well that can apply to any enlightened protector of any lineage. Dorje Drolod, Vajra Vega, Gonpo Kur, etc etc. Yes they are enlightened and have the capability BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE IN THE LAM RIM.

Hence a practice does not need to be DIRECTLY MENTIONED in the lam rim to be 'ok'. But the lam rim can be a guideline. So the practices that would lead to the mo practice such as retreats of Tsongkapa, Yamantaka and Shugden are certainly approved by the lam rim. So if one of the SIDE benefits without wishing for it is the mo, it can be a distraction, it cannot be. Having a beautiful altar with richly decorated Buddha images to show your friends how pious you are is a distraction. Anything can be a distraction. Don't restrict so much and make Dharma dry, boring, and just for one type of mind. Be skilfull always to suit the many temperaments of beings of this age.

TK

[LosangKhyentse]

By saying what you said, are you are implying that our lineage Lamas who went thru all those retreats to be able to do divination has wasted their time on something that is not worth while?

Their advice seems to indicate it can be a distraction from the Lam Rim for beings who need to train in Lam Rim.  Certainly they have already realized the Lam Rim meditations including shamatha and are able to engage in uncommon branch practices to benefit beings.  Sorry I speak from the common lam rim point of view, what else do I know?  Plus we should avoid playing into our critics hands, who say that we are interested in worldly gains, etc. Of course this is not really true, but it could appear to that way to some if we openly discuss these things.

Everything in samsara is a distraction. So doing any practices as best as one could is beneficial.

TK

[WisdomBeing]

Sorry - i am going off topic again but i wish to address this issue which is sorely needed.

TK, this tension has been going on since over a week with my criticism of the brochure.

Generally, if you read my posts, you might sometimes find an uncompromising, a critical or even cynical attitude, but never direct attacks or a deliberate lack of respect towards other practitionners.


Now, I claim the right to be critical. I don't think we should always congratulate each others. This seems to be very problematic for may buddhists these days...criticism is on the verge of being labelled "unbuddist".  However, many of past buddhist masters were uncompromising and critical, let's not forget that. Obviously, I'm not one of them and my uncompromising or critical remarks are often met with direct insults and attacks ad hominem, practices in which I try to avoid.

So if I hurted you in any way TK, then I should obviously apologise: I APOLOGISE, TK, for having offended you!

I hope this helps!

Now, instead of ignoring each other as you requested, I suggest that we read each others' comments more smoothly and be carefull in our replies in the future. This alone will help a lot as I have previously indicated many times.

If you still wish to cut communication, it's ok with me.

However, I DO wish to keep my freedom of thought and maintain my capacity to discriminate between right and wrong and to be able voice my thought about it, that is to disagree, without people always feeling offended by my style.

Yours in Dharma.

Dear Alexis,

As an outsider of this difference of opinion between yourself and TK and with nothing at all to gain (except maybe peace of mind), I would like to share my personal observations. I do find your style very condescending. This may be unintentional in which case, you may wish to contemplate how and why you are giving this impression to at least two people on this forum. If it is intentional, then there is not much more to say.

You do not make direct attacks but indirectly yes. Of course everyone has the right to be critical or skeptical but it is how we convey our differences of opinion... whether it is from a position of superiority or ego, or whether it is from a genuine wish to present your point of view. The undertone is sometimes quite overt. Even your 'apology' to TK as in your above post has a very insincere tone about it, sorry to say.

This forum is intended to be a safe space for Dorje Shugden practitioners to share, discuss and learn. The more senior and the more knowledgeable the practitioners are, the more decorum is expected. I believe respect and humility are signs of great Masters and what we all aspire to.

Please look within because only you know where your motivation is coming from.

Please respect others and if your style is not working, perhaps you might consider changing your style so that if you have valid points of view, it is presented more palatably for everyone. If how you say something pisses people off before they can even digest what you are saying, how can that be a good thing?

Please think why you are here - to benefit others or to put people down? There's no need to answer any of the questions i have posted - they are merely requests for you to self-examine.

May the powerful Protector, Dorje Shugden, clear your obstacles and bring you peace,
Kate

[honeydakini]

As TK has mentioned the purpose of Tsongkapa, Yamantaka, Dorje Shugden retreats are to clear obstacles to realizing the real non-dualistic nature of the mind and propelling oneself to Liberation which is what all serious Buddhist practitioners are supposed to do anyways.  One does not engage in such sacred retreats with the motivation just to do divination.  To be qualified to do divination as a result is a side benefit.

Thank you WoselTenzin for posting this and I very much agree with you! Debating the "relevance" of divination or not is not the point. It is a significant part of practice, but like you said, it is an additional benefit of the main practices that we do, and we don't engage in these retreats just merely to do divination.

It's like, you don't go through 4 years of university just to enjoy the nice facilities of the Student Union! That's a side benefit - but you go primarily there to gain knowledge and learning!

In any case, divination on its own, without the simultaneous attainments of wisdom and a truly altruistic mind, would not work or be anywhere near as effective. It could become just another samsaric distraction.

A personal anecdote to illustrate this point:
I remember asking my teacher about the requirements to do divination and I balked when he told me the huge list of requirements and retreats, vows, commitments etc. I said (rather naively and stupidly) - "Wow you did all that to do divination?" He said, "No, I did all that because I want to gain realisations and Enlightenment!"

[Vajraprotector]

A personal anecdote to illustrate this point:
I remember asking my teacher about the requirements to do divination and I balked when he told me the huge list of requirements and retreats, vows, commitments etc. I said (rather naively and stupidly) - "Wow you did all that to do divination?" He said, "No, I did all that because I want to gain realisations and Enlightenment!"
[/quote]

Thank you honeydakini and WoselTenzin for your explanation. I find it weird why is it that there are much debate about practices or things that are not considered 'mainstream' or scholarly in this forum, e.g. divination, oracles etc. I mean any practice has its value and I am sure masters who kept these practices alive have their reasons to keep them and pass on their lineages.

Glad that this is still a democratic forum!

[dsnowlion]

Why do divination then?  Is divination even Buddhistic to begin with?  Well, for anything to be Buddhistic depends solely on your motivation.  Why do many High Lamas and advanced Buddhist practitioners go thru such retreats and engage in divination?  There are many people out there who encounter problems that cannot be solved with logical thinking eg spirit disturbances, black magic attack, severe sickness and other obstacles due to unexplained karmic results etc.  To be able to divine the future and provide solutions for such problems will help such people tremendously and save them from a lot time, emotional, physical and financial agony.  Great Buddhist practitioners do divination to help these people so that by solving their immediate problems, they can eventually be led to their spiritual path and practice to gain attainments.

Therefore to go through such arduous retreat so that one can do divination to help others can only be motivated by compassion.  Of course not everyone has the circumstances to be able to do such retreats although one may wish one could.  But to brush it off as something trivial or not worth while speaks volume of you.  Also, since you do DS kangso, I presume you are from the Gelugpa tradition.  By saying what you said, are you are implying that our lineage Lamas who went thru all those retreats to be able to do divination has wasted their time on something that is not worth while?  Think before you speak.  To even indirectly disparage someone who has higher merit than you has severe karmic repercussion.  What more if they are your lamas or lineage lamas?  

WoselTenzin I think you have hit the nail in the head with your very logical points on the whole purpose and reason behind anyone wanting to do divination in the first place. And Thank you TK for having the courage and discipline to have gone through the arduous retreats, and finishing it to be able to share it with us today. Even if we do not want to do divination, knowing how it all works does help one to understand about this practice of divination by Vajrayana Buddhist masters, which is totally different from the 'worldly' divination practices such as tarot card readings which is so prevalent everywhere.

My Lama have always advice not to seek or do such divination as it open up doors to 'worldly spirits'. However, the divination done by many high Lama's are trust worthy and their source and lineage are authentic for we're not contacting 'unknown spirits' but WOW! Dorje Shugden aka Manjushri!!!

Yes I agree many people faces a lot of dangerous desperate situations like illness that can cause death. And If you know of someone who can do divination and help point you to the right direction on what to do, wouldn't you want that? Especially since it's coming from the Buddhas?

I requested for a divination to be done for a family member before who was suddenly in ICU and dying, and my Lama helped me save her life by doing divination and telling me what prayers and pujas to do. Now this person is alive and living!

I also recommended a friend of mine who was disturbed by spirits to ask for a divination on what to do. He was new in Buddhism and honestly I don't think he'd be in the right state of mind to read the Lamrim at that moment, but now he is because someone helped him when they no one else could.

So if there are people who sincerely wish to help people, why not preserve this authentic reliable altruistic tradition, and I greatly applaud them (RatnaShugden etc) and give my prayers and good wishes to you so that your retreat be a success like TK's for the benefit of others.

xdsnowlion

[happyxiao73]

Wah, DS divination is increditable!!! Thank you all the information.

[LXF]

 

I am newbie here, after reading this topic, my comments below:

DS divination information from TK inspired and help me to understand the dharma protector in depth, seeking divination from protector not mainly coming from worldly concern but to help and benefit others, eventually to get enlightenment.

WOW ! Great Great information about DS divination from TK

THANKS TK!!

XLF

[honeydakini]

I can't speak for others regarding what they do or are interested in.  For those out there that have been filled with doubt by many people who say things such as those who practice Dorje Shugden do it for wealth, success and things of this life I would like to not give them any information or impression that may lead them to that conclusion.  No doubt Dorje Shugden helps people even in mundane affairs because we do have a lot of suffering in life.  But as far as what I have read Dorje Shugden is a Buddhist protector that has taken particular responsibility to protect the Gelug tradition and its holders, if this key point is overshadowed by other matters it is unfortunate. 

I don't think the intention is to belittle, undermine or overshadow the very sacred role that Dorje Shugden has within the Buddhist pantheon and Dharma practice. If it does seem there there is discussion about protectors being able to assist in what seems like mundane affairs such as wealth, health and success, I think any sincere lama or practitioners intention would be for it to be merely a method or avenue into spiritual practice - a means to an end, rather than the end in itself.

In the context of this particular discussion, the practice of divination is not just about wealth, material success and mundane affairs. Many consult protectors, including Dorje Shugden, on matters related directly to their spiritual practice/retreats and to the spiritual affairs of an institution or monastery. Even if certain divination questions may seem outwardly "worldly", the intention may be for a higher spiritual purpose.

[DSFriend]

However, I DO wish to keep my freedom of thought and maintain my capacity to discriminate between right and wrong and to be able voice my thought about it, that is to disagree, without people always feeling offended by my style.

Yours in Dharma.

Dear Alexis
Please keep HARMONY at all times. This forum has been and is an incredible platform for learning, nurturing, and sharing of thoughts.. We do not have the luxury of engaging in daily debates in the great monasteries as a way of learning, but this online forum is as close as we can get. Are we free of karmic repercussions from our deluded minds in this forum just because it's ONLINE? Obviously not. Please be mindful and conduct ourselves with awareness...afterall, this is where friends of Dharmapala congregate.

Many people have given you feedback. Please be open and consider what has been shared.

best wishes
DSFriend

[triesa]

Thank RatnaShugden for asking this question and Tk for taking time on writing the  detailed explanations.

I am happy to know that there is a system of practices to follow and they are not just for high lamas. it proves that for anyone who is sincere and they perservere all the retreats, and with clean samaya, they can do mo to benefit others.

Thank you again TK for sharing this great knowledge.

Triesa

[icy]

Who on god's green earth has time for this?     It's hard to find time even to do a kangso.

Some people are just soo stupid, why even say this? what are you saying about your lama? What are you saying about the Dharma, duhhhh~!

You can't make time for the buddhist practices which make your life better, happier? Your just a beginner and will always be if your still after soo many years finding it difficult to make time for Dharma.

What a waste man.


Yes, man we need to make time for almost every thing.  Just make time and you can do it.

[harrynephew]

I can't speak for others regarding what they do or are interested in.  For those out there that have been filled with doubt by many people who say things such as those who practice Dorje Shugden do it for wealth, success and things of this life I would like to not give them any information or impression that may lead them to that conclusion.  No doubt Dorje Shugden helps people even in mundane affairs because we do have a lot of suffering in life.  But as far as what I have read Dorje Shugden is a Buddhist protector that has taken particular responsibility to protect the Gelug tradition and its holders, if this key point is overshadowed by other matters it is unfortunate. 

I don't think the intention is to belittle, undermine or overshadow the very sacred role that Dorje Shugden has within the Buddhist pantheon and Dharma practice. If it does seem there there is discussion about protectors being able to assist in what seems like mundane affairs such as wealth, health and success, I think any sincere lama or practitioners intention would be for it to be merely a method or avenue into spiritual practice - a means to an end, rather than the end in itself.

In the context of this particular discussion, the practice of divination is not just about wealth, material success and mundane affairs. Many consult protectors, including Dorje Shugden, on matters related directly to their spiritual practice/retreats and to the spiritual affairs of an institution or monastery. Even if certain divination questions may seem outwardly "worldly", the intention may be for a higher spiritual purpose.

I still would like to bring up my earlier standpoint in the other string in the forum.

No doubt that Dorje Shugden is a Buddhist protector who has sworn to uphold and protect the Gelug teachings but a Bodhisattva is a Bodhisattva. A bodhisattva cannot appear in one lineage, school or sect and not another? no? And at the same time a Bodhisattva's action can vary from mundane undertakings in life to leading you to enlightenment.

So let's not underestimate Dorje Shugden's power is confined to this and that. It belittles DS and everyone who believes in him.

Like I said, the Buddhas through their compassion lead sentient beings by their desires from the state of Samsara to the realization of the Buddha's intent.

cheers,
H1N1

[lightning]

I'm not really sure what the point of talking about these uncommon practices and related qualifications publicly is exactly, it may not be appropriate.  It may attract people interested in setting up their own little mo business, etc.

Dear Trinley Kalsang,

I have done the whole process of retreats (Tsongkapa/Yamantaka/Shugden with fire pujas) over ten years back as I described above. And I did not do it for mo purposes. I made the time for it and it was one of the best times in my life. I took 3.5 full months out of my schedule and engage in each retreat systematically under the guidance of a Geshe who resides in Europe now. I finished it all in 3.5 months straight. I did three to four sessions a day and it was tough but I would do it again.

Outstanding...  have completed yamantaka retreat before and understand that It is a tremendous efforts to finished it in 3.5 months straight no easy task, I rejoiced and applaud for for such virtuous efforts. Thanks again for sharing valuable information with us. Hopefully I can request for Tsongkhapa retreat also.

[Lineageholder]

I was unaware of this debate going on on the forum!

I can see both sides.  I too feel a little uncomfortable about divination as, like Tantra, it can be misused for mundane purposes.  I remember reading Je Pabongkhapa who said that if we want to know what our future is going to be like, all we need to do is to look at our present actions. 

It's also not very clear where divination and oracles fit into the lamrim, I get that too.  It's a warning that we need to be impeccable in our motivation.  Great Lamas like Trijang Dorjechang could use divination to help others because they had realized bodhichitta and so all their actions were great work for sentient beings.  I, on the other hand, have too many delusions and too many distractions so it would be dangerous for me to get involved in this.  I remember reading that Je Rinpoche trained in Tibetan medical methods and was a very good doctor, but he felt that even this was giving into worldly concerns and he appeared to regret doing it.  Pure lamrim practice is the best insurance policy for our own and other's happiness - I truly believe this. Having said this, I rejoice in TK's retreats and knowledge of divination.