Shugden and Ganesha

[DharmapalasDharma]

http://dorjeshugdenmovie.com/about-2    On the DS movie website link it said that some believe Dorje Shugden is a son of Ganesha. I always knew that Ganesha was popular in Hinduism and Jainism as well as SouthEast Asian Buddhism such as Thailand. I even saw a Tibetan thangka of him. Does Ganesha have any link to Dorje Shugden or Tibetan Buddhism. Please let me know because I love Ganesha.

[a friend]

That's an interesting development. The legend of Dorjeshugden starts to grow. If He is going to be considered also an Himalayan deity then you can start making statues. 

Dorjeshugden arose from the promises of Dulzin Drakpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Drakpa and Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen. He arose at the time of the demise of Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen. The beloved deity Ganesh is not considered the father of our Protector in our system.
One thing I know because I've seen a picture is that Je Rinpoche built with his hands a type of clay tsatsa with the image of Ganesh. Which is not surprising because more or less all Hindu deities have roles in the Buddhist Tantric Pantheon. Not the same role as in the Hindu Pantheon though.

I read once that Ganesh was considered some type of offering deity in some Buddhist shrines, but the source of this was just one of those calendars where they gather the opinion of Western scholars, not a Lama's source.

Sorry that's all I can say ... it does not amount to much.

DD, if you wanted to know if it's ok to love Ganesha, there is no problem with that. Now, if you want to have a practice involving him, that is another matter, you will have to ask your Teacher about it.

[DSFriend]

DD, if you wanted to know if it's ok to love Ganesha, there is no problem with that. Now, if you want to have a practice involving him, that is another matter, you will have to ask your Teacher about it.

Good advice!

[emptymountains]

DD, if you wanted to know if it's ok to love Ganesha, there is no problem with that.

I have been taught that it is inappropriate to develop compassion--the wish that others be free from suffering--for Buddhas, since Buddhas are already free from suffering.

As a corollary, I was wondering if it is also inappropriate to develop love--the wish that others experience pure, lasting happiness--for Buddhas, since they already experience uncontaminated happiness.

If that is true--and we develop compassion and love only for migrating sentient beings--then what word would best describe our relationship to the Buddhas?

[LosangKhyentse]

That Hindu Ganesha is the son of Shiva. He is a powerful god. If happy he helps you on your endeavours, if angered, he can cause much obstacles. In general considered very powerful.

In the Surka and Rinjung Gyatsa set of initiations, there are several forms of Ganesha, short sadhanas and mantras. Ganeshe in these texts are considered direct emanations of the Compassionate Avalokitesvara. Ganesha has many forms in the Buddhist Tradtition. They can be obstacle removers or Nor gyi Dakpo or Wealth deities. They confer great spiritual and secular wealth for the individual. Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, Zemey Rinpoche and Denma Locho Rinpoche are well known to confer these sacred initiations to the vast congregations.

I've included four sacred images of the various Ganapatis that are propititated within the Gelugpas.
 
The White form with four arms is the personal practice of the Incomparable Lord Atisha. He brought this practice to Tibet. The 3 faced, 6 armed and four legged Ganapati is propitiated when one is being accused or punished for wrong accusations by the law.


tk

[harrynephew]

Wow~!

wonderful explanation given ny TK. I've always thought that worldly beings prior to the advent of Buddhism were not allowed to be propitiated by Buddhists simply because they have not attained the highest form of attainments - enlightenment. When propitiated and boons and favours granted, these deities seek offerings, praise and other rituals to further pacify their ego.Otherwise, when offended, many repercussions may follow.

I am happy to know that the Lord of the world, the great saint Arya Lokeshvara actually emanated as Ganapati in order to assist sentient beings with the things that they need. It is important to receive correct teachings as these deities I would consider as borderline cases whereby they poses the same appearances as a worldly being but in actual fact enlightened or vice versa.

Regarding DS being born off Ganesha as a protector.......Hmmmm..... does Ganesha have a consort in order for it to be in union with and produce DS?? I doubt it.

Results resemble the cause, DS is such a holy and powerful being capable of both worldly and Dharmic activities assisting sentient beings in whatever needs and wishes they pray for without agenda but the worldly form of Ganapati still have worldly views and defilements, how can an enlightened being be born off an unenlightened being?

I also do not think that the emanations of Lokeshwara as Ganapati will have the circumstances to be able to give birth to DS as their functions are specific and not for the Dharma as a whole.

I'm reasoning this out as a matter of fact.

DD, u might wanna check your resources thoroughly before posting such a claim on DS.


love,
H1N1

[LosangKhyentse]

Wow~!



I am happy to know that the Lord of the world, the great saint Arya Lokeshvara actually emanated as Ganapati in order to assist sentient beings with the things that they need. It is important to receive correct teachings as these deities I would consider as borderline cases whereby they poses the same appearances as a worldly being but in actual fact enlightened or vice versa.


love,
H1N1

Lokeshvara emanated as Ganapati to counter the worldy Ganapati. Just like Heruka emanated as Mahadeva to counter him.

TK

[harrynephew]

Dorje Shugden as a Deva, is the son of Lakshmi (Queen of Samsara) and Ganesha (King of Obstructors). It's written in the Kangso and further described in Trijang Rinpoche's commentary (Melodious drum, p.58).

Ganesha is the keeper of hindu tantras while Dorje Shugden is the keeper of Buddhists tantras. Through Lakshmi, he has kingly power over wealth and ressources.

Alexis,

It is interesting that u say this. But what proof u have that denotes Lakshmi is the Queen of Samsara? As far as I know, she's just a Hindu wealth deity. Ganesha cannot be the King of Obstructors, else the Hindus would have named him that in the gitas already.

And mind u, the King of Obstructors mentioned by Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang is Ishvara and not Ganesha.

Please do check your facts before u post.

thanks
H1N1

[harrynephew]

Harrynephew,

In the Hindu tradition, Lakshmi represent the "Royalty" principle in the universe, hence "Queen of Samsara". The only other deity it could apply to is Parvati, but Parvati is more associated with "Householding" than Royalty.

From the Kango:

_{Born from cells of the father, King of Obstructors, And the supreme mother, Queen of Existence, One whose body mandala of Shugden's five families, chief and entourage, In their great wrathful palace, was instantly complete, praise to you!}

This passage is commented by Trijang Dorjechang here (Music Delighting, p. 102):

_{"...from the two joined elements of the father, King of Obstuctors Binayaka, one of thirty leading wrathful spirits, and the mother Machig, Sole?Mother, Queen of Existence..."}

Now, Vinayaka is another well-known name of Ganesha, who is often described as the leader of the vinyakas group of deities, exactly as Trijang Dorjechang has described.

Yours,

quoted from the Kangso: pp102

"By the power of the monk's commitment and the power that Maha Ishavara had given him, as soon as he died he was born as the son of the Great Deva Ishvara and the goddess Uma Devi. Vajrapani gave him empowerment and bound him under oath to protect the teachings. He came to Jambudvipa and destroyed the city of Three Tier. As he was about to turn the entire world to dust, Heruka gave him empowerment to protect the teachings, blessed him and brought him under command."

also:

"...from the two joined elements of the father, King of Obstuctors Bin?yaka, one of thirty leading wrathful spirits, and the mother Machig, Sole?Mother, Queen of Existence, the purity of his five aggregates appeared as Shugden's five families...."


It is interesting that u pluck in Hindu mythology into this context when it concerns spirits existing in this very realm which has very little to do with what u have presented.

Indeed Binayaka is another epithet for Ganesh in Hindu belief but in Buddhism, there are so many Binayakas. Here, stated are a group of 30 over spirits, how would u conclude as such?

H1N1

[dsnowlion]

DD, if you wanted to know if it's ok to love Ganesha, there is no problem with that. Now, if you want to have a practice involving him, that is another matter, you will have to ask your Teacher about it.

a friend


That Hindu Ganesha is the son of Shiva. He is a powerful god. If happy he helps you on your endeavours, if angered, he can cause much obstacles.


Lokeshvara emanated as Ganapati to counter the worldy Ganapati. Just like Heruka emanated as Mahadeva to counter him.

TK

After reading this very interesting findings and many people's opinion... I agree with a friend that if DD you'd like to more, do please ask a qualified teacher.

Having read what TK posted, if Ganesha is still a worldly God unenlightened and can cause obstacles if angered, then why would you even wish to entertain the idea or propitiating Ganesha? Isn't it be best to rely on an Enlightened Buddha Dorje Shugden who helps practitioners on worldly aspects and also ultimately on our spiritual path in achieving attainments and realisations.

I think our Protector Dorje Shugden is good enough and would not cause problems for you if you by accident did anything to offend Him.

However, if you really do wish to pray to Ganesha, I think you can visualise Ganesha and all other Gods dissolve into Lord Dorje Shugden - Tada! You therefore praying to everyone. Would this help? Best is still ask your Lama.

xdsnowlion   

[a friend]

Folks, the first thing that came to my mind when answering DD up above, was of course that verse of the kangso and I actually wrote it down. Then I stopped short and erased it. I thought that we had agreed upon the non talking about Tantric matters.
I know, I know, the kangso is published and anybody can grab it and read it, but I still find it rather not appropriate to write about these things.
Of course you do not have to agree with this old practitioner.
In which case I would like to have your input about where to draw the limit (when it comes to writing about Tantric material). Thanks.

[a friend]

Shri Ganesh is not a god, he is a Deity.
I forgot to tell that I once mentioned him as a god, and my Lama corrected me saying that he was not a god, but a Deity.
Sorry I don't have more explanations, I was stupid enough not to ask them.
Sorry also if this goes beyond the limits of what one should say but so much has been already said of him, that when I remembered I thought it was not right to hide it.

[LosangKhyentse]

Of course you do not have to agree with this old practitioner.

I like 'old' practitioners like you because you were the generation that ushered in Eastern Religions such as Tibetan Buddhism when everyone looked at it suspiciously. I do thank you 'old' practitioners very much and have my deep respects and gratitude.

Om Mani Peme Hung

TK

[a friend]

Dear TK,

Thank you for your kind words.
Nothing can compare in good fortune to have been close to our Lamas. May we maintain the pure link to their sacred lineage and practice what they transmitted us for the benefit of all.

[harrynephew]

DD, if you wanted to know if it's ok to love Ganesha, there is no problem with that. Now, if you want to have a practice involving him, that is another matter, you will have to ask your Teacher about it.

a friend


That Hindu Ganesha is the son of Shiva. He is a powerful god. If happy he helps you on your endeavours, if angered, he can cause much obstacles.


Lokeshvara emanated as Ganapati to counter the worldy Ganapati. Just like Heruka emanated as Mahadeva to counter him.

TK

After reading this very interesting findings and many people's opinion... I agree with a friend that if DD you'd like to more, do please ask a qualified teacher.

Having read what TK posted, if Ganesha is still a worldly God unenlightened and can cause obstacles if angered, then why would you even wish to entertain the idea or propitiating Ganesha? Isn't it be best to rely on an Enlightened Buddha Dorje Shugden who helps practitioners on worldly aspects and also ultimately on our spiritual path in achieving attainments and realisations.

I think our Protector Dorje Shugden is good enough and would not cause problems for you if you by accident did anything to offend Him.

However, if you really do wish to pray to Ganesha, I think you can visualise Ganesha and all other Gods dissolve into Lord Dorje Shugden - Tada! You therefore praying to everyone. Would this help? Best is still ask your Lama.

xdsnowlion   

Thank you Dsnowlion for your thoughtful response

This subject has been hanging at the back of my mind for the longest time since I last posted here. It troubles me why and how can Dorje Shugden can be born from such a worldly being as Ganapati. I can't seem to find any possible reference or evidence besides the Kangso.

I searched the net to find more information and the only possible generic description about Ganapati as a remover of obstacles is as follows:
"His association with obstacles comes from the great strength of the elephant, the intelligence of the human and the subtelty or ability to penetrate small spaces like a mouse or rat. Ganesha is usually shown with four arms - these represent the four directions of space or the four elements - the god being the spirit or quintessence of these. The word Ganesha means lord of hosts. As usual in the tantrik symbolism the name is really an adjective and this adjective is also applied to Shiva. The hosts are the hosts of spirits or denizens of the three worlds."

But it still doesn't shed light on the fact of how Dorje Shugden is born from Ganapati. I think even though this question may pose to be more of a Tantric nature, I would still like to find out more about what it really is as it bugs the hell out of me.

A supreme, supramundane protector of the Doctrine cannot be born from a worldly deity.

Please shed some light

H1N1