Lift the ban

[honeydakini]

It's safer for one's practice to see it this way.

Times have changed. Dharma has to degenerate unfortunately. Whether we like it or not, we are a part of the degeneracy. Better 'degernate' dharma than no dharma at all. Plant seeds for Maitreya is the best hope for me.

We should never give up simply because things don't go our way or ppl don't share our views. Why? You give up, you lose and you inspire no one to carry on the torch.

TK

I agree with you TK. Thanks for the perspective that "degenerate dharma is better than no dharma at all". If we are going to take a line of being so "purist" then we should be comparing ourselves to the times of Shakyamuni himself! I dare say that even the "purest" and most conventional of practitioners among us on this forum wouldn't be nearly half as proper or sincere a practitioner as those in Shakyamuni's times. Heck, the fact that many of us  are still not ordained and floating around in our material attachments is evidence enough that we are not as sincere practitioners as we could be.

So if we are like this, then imagine all the other thousands more beings that are not even remotely connected to the Dharma or any spiritual path in any way. Then, we have to approach them and connect to them by even more "degenerate", worldly or "lowly" means. It's not that it's high or low - it's a method to reach someone.

My own Lama has, for example, given me many gifts; he has sometimes even helped me financially, in my health, counselled me in my failing relationships - from what I have read of many spiritual accounts between practitioners and their Gurus, I have gathered that many of the Lamas in today's day and age help their students in many, many, many varied and unexpected ways that are not confined to the teaching throne. From a purely purist view, it is already "degenerate" that our Lamas have to do that. Why is it okay for us degenerates to receive this kind of kindness from our teacher, but not for other "more degenerate" people to receive other kinds of help, even if it seems trite / material / silly / corrupted to us .

Look at how teachers like Chogyam Trungpa "taught" his students by drinking sake with them, hanging and socialising with them like their friends. Look at Tsem Rinpoche's blog! If we want to go all the way with labelling things as "degenerate", then isn't it also "degenerate" and a use of "worldly means" that a highly incarnated lama and ordained monk has to resort to going on a laptop and blogging to reach us silly people? Yet, we are so attracted to this medium (because we are techno nerds that love being online!), it helps us, it deepens our faith in Dharma, awakens new perspectives in us. If this method works for us, consider the countless, thousands other methods that will work for countless, thousands others of us out there.

[triesa]

Dear HoneyDakini,

I agree with every word you said. And I would love to be connected to a lama of this 21st century. I am going to check out Tsem Tulku Rinpoche. I got to read more about Tsem Rinpoche when TK posted the link to his blog on Varjayogini practice.

Tsem Tulku Rinpoche's blog is very unconventional, I like his style. There is always something new in his blog. It is not just some interlectual teachings, but I can see and feel "DHARMA IN ACTION". I like that.

For a high lama with the recognition of a "Tulku", who spends hours on the blog to reach out to the masses, he surely knows what better method should be used in this 21st century.... Cyber Space......to reach to us nerds. I pray for the long life of  His Emminence.

Triesa

[a friend]

My own Lama has, for example, given me many gifts; he has sometimes even helped me financially, in my health, counselled me in my failing relationships - from what I have read of many spiritual accounts between practitioners and their Gurus, I have gathered that many of the Lamas in today's day and age help their students in many, many, many varied and unexpected ways that are not confined to the teaching throne. From a purely purist view, it is already "degenerate" that our Lamas have to do that.

Honeydakini, it's not at all "degenerate" that our holy Lamas do that. It's traditional, and it's one of the things they are supposed to do as Lamas, to be generous with the disciples to attract them and soften their minds. Of course in older times, to people who would value food as wealth, they would give part of the offerings to enjoy. Nowadays they will help with other needs of our lives.

[DharmaDefender]

My own Lama has, for example, given me many gifts; he has sometimes even helped me financially, in my health, counselled me in my failing relationships - from what I have read of many spiritual accounts between practitioners and their Gurus, I have gathered that many of the Lamas in today's day and age help their students in many, many, many varied and unexpected ways that are not confined to the teaching throne. From a purely purist view, it is already "degenerate" that our Lamas have to do that.

Honeydakini, it's not at all "degenerate" that our holy Lamas do that. It's traditional, and it's one of the things they are supposed to do as Lamas, to be generous with the disciples to attract them and soften their minds. Of course in older times, to people who would value food as wealth, they would give part of the offerings to enjoy. Nowadays they will help with other needs of our lives.

With respect a friend, I think honeydakini qualified her statement by saying 'purely purist view'. I took HD's words to mean that if we're really as devoted to our lamas as we say that we are, then surely help that extends beyond the teaching throne is not necessary. Therefore it is already degenerate in our own practices that our lama has to employ skilful means to teach the dharma to us. Degenerate in the sense the lamrim teachings alone should be enough, and yet through our lack of transformation we almost 'force' our lamas to consider other means aside from just teaching.

Or maybe I'm putting words in HD's mouth that weren't there!!!

[DharmaDefender]

This thread is interesting. Why do the Dalai Lama ban Dorje Shugden and claim him a spirit while he turns around and consult another spirit Nechung (an unenlightened spirit)? It really doesn't makes sense! I like the way he gets away with it but I do like the fact that he is making Dorje Shugden such a renown 'menace'. Intelligent people will see through his flimsy logic and get curious of this obscure Tibetan practice. Lovely way to spread this practice.

Especially since it's well-documented that Nechung was a spirit...it's not like we made it up! Then again, lots of things about this ban don't make sense (prime example on this thread! http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.0). But like tk has said, it's safest for our practice to see it from icy's point of view which is:

There is no bad or good in this world.  Whatever challenges DS people have now eventually there will be light. Bad situations and challenges will transform to good and beneficial situations.  What the Dalai Lama is doing is indirectly creating a lot of adverse publicity for Lord Shugden and spreading the teaching world wide; spreading like wild fire; His skillful methods with wisdom and compassion for the world, even the Chinese in China can benefit from this furor while his reputation is at stake, much to his compassionate intent.

Thankfully for the law of impermanence, no situation is forever lasting. Karma for bad situations and challenges will end, and the ban will fade one day.

It's intelligent people that we need for this lineage to survive, not capricious practitioners whose beliefs are easily swayed by cheap talk. Intelligent people will understand a practice and, having received it, keep the commitments. Intelligent people will see the benefits of the practice and know that it is not worth giving up. And if they are REALLY intelligent, they'll know that it's smart to show gratitude for the kindness of their teacher in giving them the practice, and repay it by doing the practice well. Intelligent people is what, I believe, will take for Dorje Shugden's lineage to persevere and grow.

[a friend]

Lovely way to spread this practice.

Lovely way to spread this practice ...
With much excuses, this is too much.

I really don't think that the people spreading this extraordinary nonsense are aware of what they are doing.
The harm, the dishonor that they are bringing to Buddhadharma.
You talk of intelligent people ... fine ... please use your power of reasoning before spreading this view.
I wish so much that the author, the originator of this website could come and accept a debate about it. But I don't imagine that he or she is not aware of the things that we have been saying since 2007 about this "DL DSh spreading Dharma together." And we never had an answer.
Look the extremes where this theory is pushing people.

So this is the theory. The Dalai Lama decided one luminous day to spread the practice of Dorje Shugden, a Dharmaprotector, in a certain way, a way that never before a Buddha of the past had used to spread the practice of any Deity, be it Dharmapala or not. Not foreseeing that he was going to request, one day, to bring back Tibet "to the fold of Mother China", he decided that whatever he did the Chinese were going to oppose, and that that was a very clever way to spread the practice of a Dharmapala that even historically, according to him, he had abhorred. So to obtain this aim, utterly bizarre, he decided the following:

*To ban the Deity that he wanted to promote.

* To break samaya with his Guru, proclaiming to the world that his Guru, and all the Gurus of his Guru, in a lineage going back three hundred years, was wrong, were wrong.

* To go against everything he had been saying to the world, about compassion, about tolerance, about democracy, about the happy possibility for all religions to live together.

* To start a full fledge persecution of the practitioners of a religious practice, reducing them to a pariah status.

* To push Tibetans and other Buddhist practitioners to commit all sorts of sins through repeated exhortations.

* To congratulate those who actually committed the bad deeds that he had promoted.

* To force a schism in the Sangha, one of the five deeds ...

A lovely way, indeed, to show compassion and wisdom.
A lovely way, indeed, to teach the people of this Jambudvipa, by his example, what people should adopt as behavior and what they should abandon.

A lovely way. A way never before staged by any Buddha. As Je Pabongkapa would say: this is going to take them to a place where never a Buddha went before.

Lovely indeed.

[DSFriend]

Wait what Tk Bestow Nechung ? 

Dalai Lama encourages the worship of Nechung. Always quotes what Nechung says publicly as reasons for some of his decisions.

He encourages Nechung temple, Oracle, practice to proliferate. If you go Dharamsala, many pictures of Nechung are for sale everywhere. Near the long circumambulation circuit around Dalai lama's palace in Dharamsala, a Nechung Shrine house has been erected for ppl to circumambulate around. The funny thing is Nechung is not an enlightened being. In fact an evil being that was subdued by Guru Rinpoche after a psychic war. He is still not enlightened and therefore not a proper object of refuge.

With Nechung not being enlightened, there's no Two Sides about it. Everyone knows he is not enlightened FROM DAY ONE. Full stop! But at least with Dorje Shugden, there's a large 'camp' that believe he is enlightened which he is.

So why encourage Nechung worship and practice when he is a subdued evil spirit. SO WHY BESTOW NECHUNG ON PEOPLE???

TK

It goes to show how people have faith and believe in Lamas in this case Dalai Lama, instead of deities. I suppose it shouldn't surprise us that if people can believe in a subdued evil spirit like Nechung because Dalai Lama says so, then following the same "illogical logic", people will believe Dalai Lama if he says NOT to rely on an enlightened being like Dorje Shugden.

[a friend]

It goes to show how people have faith and believe in Lamas in this case Dalai Lama, instead of deities. I suppose it shouldn't surprise us that if people can believe in a subdued evil spirit like Nechung because Dalai Lama says so, then following the same "illogical logic", people will believe Dalai Lama if he says NOT to rely on an enlightened being like Dorje Shugden.

Dear DSFriend,

I don't think that the "faith" that Tibetan people put in the Dalai Lama can always be compared to the faith that they have for their Lamas.
The Dalai Lama, more than a Lama, represents an extremely archaic figure in the history of mankind, much much older than the blessed century when our Lord Buddha walked this Earth. He is the God-King, a figure comparable to that of Faraoh or other ancient monarchs. The strength and sacredness of this figure is litterally immeasurable, because it comes from an old collective unconcious pool of knowledge. Add to this that there has been a conscious intent to assimilate the figure of DL to the old kings of Tibet ... then you are ready for a kind of relationship between leader and people that disfigures the relationship between Lama/disciple. The first one is a relationship for this world, for wars, for conquest, for glory, for the preservation of a nation. The second one is a relationship aimed at liberation and enlightenment, two objectives divorced from the world.
We had here a passing Tibetan that said that for him the Dalai Lama was more important than Dharma, and that he chose the Dalai Lama over Dharma. He was describing in a few words the behavior of the Tibetan people. Many acted against the practitioners of Dorje Shugden because they feared the power of the Dalai Lama and his wrath. But many acted against the practitioners because they chose the Dalai Lama over Dharma.
This is very understandable, because at a time when they are losing their country to another power, another culture, their only strength, they feel, comes from that ancient figure of father, god, king, the one who has become for them the face of their own identity as Tibetans. Of course they are going to chose him over Dharma. Their behavior is very logical in psychological terms.

(Problem is, part of their pride as a nation is to have been a repository of Dharma. This is another explanation of the strange theory that makes the title of this website. They have to give a mantle of Dharma even to non-Dharmic actions, if they are committed by their leader.)


 

[LosangKhyentse]

It goes to show how people have faith and believe in Lamas in this case Dalai Lama, instead of deities. I suppose it shouldn't surprise us that if people can believe in a subdued evil spirit like Nechung because Dalai Lama says so, then following the same "illogical logic", people will believe Dalai Lama if he says NOT to rely on an enlightened being like Dorje Shugden.

Dear DSFriend,

I don't think that the "faith" that Tibetan people put in the Dalai Lama can always be compared to the faith that they have for their Lamas.
The Dalai Lama, more than a Lama, represents an extremely archaic figure in the history of mankind, much much older than the blessed century when our Lord Buddha walked this Earth. He is the God-King, a figure comparable to that of Faraoh or other ancient monarchs. The strength and sacredness of this figure is litterally immeasurable, because it comes from an old collective unconcious pool of knowledge. Add to this that there has been a conscious intent to assimilate the figure of DL to the old kings of Tibet ... then you are ready for a kind of relationship between leader and people that disfigures the relationship between Lama/disciple. The first one is a relationship for this world, for wars, for conquest, for glory, for the preservation of a nation. The second one is a relationship aimed at liberation and enlightenment, two objectives divorced from the world.
We had here a passing Tibetan that said that for him the Dalai Lama was more important than Dharma, and that he chose the Dalai Lama over Dharma. He was describing in a few words the behavior of the Tibetan people. Many acted against the practitioners of Dorje Shugden because they feared the power of the Dalai Lama and his wrath. But many acted against the practitioners because they chose the Dalai Lama over Dharma.
This is very understandable, because at a time when they are losing their country to another power, another culture, their only strength, they feel, comes from that ancient figure of father, god, king, the one who has become for them the face of their own identity as Tibetans. Of course they are going to chose him over Dharma. Their behavior is very logical in psychological terms.

(Problem is, part of their pride as a nation is to have been a repository of Dharma. This is another explanation of the strange theory that makes the title of this website. They have to give a mantle of Dharma even to non-Dharmic actions, if they are committed by their leader.)


 

I agree very much with 'a friend' and would like to also add, that the younger Tibetans may not see Dalai lama as the god king and full agree with his policies, but it is politically very dangerous to go against him.

You have tremendous faith in him or not, you like him or not, and if you agree with him fully or not, doesn't matter. You have to feign great agreement and devotion to the Dalai Lama. If you don't your livelihood, family, safety WILL BE IN COMPLETE DANGER anywhere in the Tibetan settlements of India. You are somewhat safe if your a Tibetan not in agreemant with Dalai Lama if your in Nepal or Bhutan though.

When interviewing school kids in USA and asking them what they want to be when they grow up, some reply to be the President. Everyone thinks how smart, ambitious and what a cute kid. If you ask that of a Tibetan Kid in India or Tibet and he says the next leader of Tibet it would be big trouble & sacrilegious. Cannot ever say things of that nature in 'democratic' Dharamsala, it is unheard of and would be considered anti-Dalai Lama rhetoric. Perhaps your working for the Chinese would be the suspicion for that kid's family. Hence when Dalai Lama passes (sorry), no one can replace him because no one is allowed to be groomed for that. Yes, this system may have worked in the past, but certainly not for the future. I am just waiting for Dharamsala govt 'ministers, royalties, power brokers' to scatter into the ten directions very soon. I am sorry to say things like that, but I mean that TGIE's hold is limited and short term. Shugden will prevail.


TK

[WisdomBeing]

11th Panchen Lama gives sermons in Tibet
June 17, 2010 
The 11th Panchen Lama, Bainqen Erdini Qoigyijabu, had given sermons to Tibetan monks and Buddhist followers over the past two days in Tibet, winning the appreciation of an audience of about 1,400.

It was the first time the 20-year-old Panchen Lama, one of the two most senior living Buddhas in Tibetan Buddhism, has preached sermons since he was enthroned as a Tibetan Buddhist leader in 1995.

About 800 monks dressed in crimson and mustard cassocks while 600 believers wore traditional Tibetan robes as they attended the sermon given on Monday morning and Tuesday morning at the Zhaxi Lhunbo Lamasery in Xigaze in southern Tibet.

The 11th Panchen Lama, who is also vice president of the Buddhist Association of China, spent more than four hours outlining his understanding of The Three Principle Paths, a Buddhist classic written by Tsongkhapa, founder of the Gelug sect of Tibetan Buddhism.

Thank you for the news... I'm glad to hear that monks and laypeople in Tibet can attend Dharma teachings. May the Panchen Lama live long and come to his own soon...

[DharmaDefender]

No Charge For Buddha's Teachings In Tibet!



11th Panchen Lama gives sermons in Tibet
June 17, 2010 
The 11th Panchen Lama, Bainqen Erdini Qoigyijabu, had given sermons to Tibetan monks and Buddhist followers over the past two days in Tibet, winning the appreciation of an audience of about 1,400.

It was the first time the 20-year-old Panchen Lama, one of the two most senior living Buddhas in Tibetan Buddhism, has preached sermons since he was enthroned as a Tibetan Buddhist leader in 1995.

About 800 monks dressed in crimson and mustard cassocks while 600 believers wore traditional Tibetan robes as they attended the sermon given on Monday morning and Tuesday morning at the Zhaxi Lhunbo Lamasery in Xigaze in southern Tibet.

The 11th Panchen Lama, who is also vice president of the Buddhist Association of China, spent more than four hours outlining his understanding of The Three Principle Paths, a Buddhist classic written by Tsongkhapa, founder of the Gelug sect of Tibetan Buddhism.

It is a blessing to me that I can hear the teachings of the Panchen Lama in my lifetime, 67-year-old Yangla said.

I benefit a lot from the sermons of the living Buddha, she said.

The Zhaxi Lhunbo Lamasery was built in 1447 and was the traditional residence of Panchen Lamas.

The 11th Panchen Lama was born in February 1990 in Lhari County, in northern Tibet's Nagqu Prefecture, with the secular name Gyaincain Norbu.

He was approved by the central government as the reincarnation of the 10th Panchen Lama in November 1995 after a lot-drawing ceremony among three candidates in the Jokhang Temple in Lhasa.

Since then, he has offered head-touching blessings to hundreds of thousands of believers and enthusiastically participated in activities for the public good

Seems like he's continuing the work of his previous incarnation, which was very much linked to China.

In fact, if you want to look at it this way, perhaps he was indirectly paving the way for practices like Dorje Shugden to grow in China.

As his 10th incarnation, he worked with the Chinese government which is something many people disagreed with. However, in doing so, he would've planted the seeds of Vajrayana practice in some of the Chinese people's minds - they would be more willing to listen to the teachings of a lama who appears to be friendly with them, than the teachings of a lama who appears to be against (e.g. His Holiness the Dalai Lama). It helps the Chinese then to accept his reincarnation as valid, and therefore be receptive to receiving teachings from his 11th incarnation...and when practices like Dorje Shugden go to China, it will have fewer problems finding practitioners because the people there already have the basic practices and grounding that the Panchen Lama worked to establish.

[Helena]

Whether the BAN is in effect or not, did it stop the practice of DS? We all know the answer to that. All things, no matter how bad it looks on the outside, if they are done with a higher motivation for a higher purpose, then it is beyond reproach. As we are not Enlightened as yet, we may not see that far or go back that far to piece every single info and construct a sound, accurate reasoning. All I know is this - without HH DL creating the BAN, DS would not have been catapulted into such a HUGE issue that demands worldwide attention now. And the DS practice still goes on, every one of us will still find a way to continue even with much modification, innovation and creative ways of masking that we do not practise. Nothing changes, but seemingly something IMPORTANT is changing though.

[Mohani]

Hi Samayatree,
Welcome to the forum. 
Just wanted to say he did not stop the practice but if the Dalai Lama had not created this schism there would be many more practitioner of Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, and probably more harmony in the Sangha and tibetan community.

[Helena]

Hi Mohani, thanks for the welcome. You are the first to welcome me, actually. Personally, I tend to think that it is precisely because HH DL banned it that it has caused so much publicity about DS. I am one of those who caught on because of all the Big-ness of this issue and got very curious. Otherwise, I would not have known about it. In terms of attracting new people to DS, I guess, it worked its magic. In terms of discouraging or deterring people from practising DS, I don't think it can or ever will. I believe people who are firm in their faith in DS will never give it up, though they may have to find their own way of practising it and yet remaining neutral on the outside. Those who can give up their DS practice easily, then there is nothing more to say. If at all, I'd say this whole BAN will seive through the fake from the real deals. Those who give up now, will give up eventually, ban or no ban. Causes only confirm who or what we are/do. They do not make or break us. This is why even after Tibet is invaded, Buddhism can become bigger and has spread wider. The Masters did not stop then, they will not stop now. I think we should look at that, and contemplate seriously and perhaps, learn from them. It's certainly much better than wasting our time getting caught up in other people's BS. You have great knowledge, Mohani. I can sense that from reading all the things you post. So, please do share more and enrich all of us. we all could use more enrichment and not just bashing others. So, we can create the causes for the return of the KING, and be shining examples of the KING's men and women. Thank you so kindly. 

Hi Samayatree,
Welcome to the forum. 
Just wanted to say he did not stop the practice but if the Dalai Lama had not created this schism there would be many more practitioner of Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, and probably more harmony in the Sangha and tibetan community.

[harrynephew]

This thread makes people think in deeper into the subject of the matter. There are many points which we can put into consideration which the above posts have already done so. In many instances, HHDL is constantly contradicting himself but in doing so HHDL is bringing this subject up to the world. I remember in one of HHDL's talks about compassion in Budddhism, HHDL mentioned that the very fact there are many wars and human harm today as compared to the days of the past is all accredited to the media.

HHDL is both a political and spiritual figure who is constantly in the eyes of the media, with HHDL's every word and order, it makes it 'easier' for HHDL to present this protector to the general public. In doing so, HHDL puts himself down in a rather degrading manner. It takes time and patience and also much study to understand what is actually happening within the Tibetan community. An enlightened being such as HHDL whom many claim to be a manifestation of Lokeshwara can only do things to benefit people in the long run.

I have heard many high Lamas putting themselves onto the firing line in order to help people achieve a certain kind of realization on the long run. Even if it means to put their own reputation at risk. This is indeed done out of great compassion.

If we do look into the subject deeper, it seems that there is more to just one deity and one Lama to the subject. It is actually for the benefit of those whom even think or hear about Dorje Shugden that'll benefit. I'm sure many people have actually come onto this website due to this upheaval to understand more and gain better insight.

H1N1