Dalai Lama's successor?...

[honeydakini]

Just saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejpPvtyDBLg
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Interesting to note the point that the next dalai lama need not be a reincarnation but could be someone appointed within his lifetime. Hmmmmm ... what could this point mean for the future of the Tib Govt and all their continuing tricks?

Then, at the same time, also note the point about how the institution of the Dalai Lamas could fade away...

[DharmaDefender]

Just saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejpPvtyDBLg

Interesting to note the point that the next dalai lama need not be a reincarnation but could be someone appointed within his lifetime. Hmmmmm ... what could this point mean for the future of the Tib Govt and all their continuing tricks?

Then, at the same time, also note the point about how the institution of the Dalai Lamas could fade away...

Well, it's already starting to fade, innit? He's doing everything he can to make it fade...the 'harsh' words and 'lies' (as everyone on this forum keeps pointing out), and the fact he's destroying the aspect that keeps the mystique going for the Tibetans (reincarnation and the identification process) by appointing his own successor.

Even the Dalai Lama says that the Chinese are more concerned about the institution of the Dalai Lama than he is hahaha and what of the Tibetan people, who cling on to his every word! I wish for once, they'd think deeper and go beyond the face value of his words - what are the chances of most Tibetans just brushing off what the Dalai Lama has said as a joke, and not taking it seriously? They should fast forward to 2:01 in the video, "some people have the impression that the Dalai Lama institution is so important to Tibetan Buddhism".

Better not to focus on "just a simple monk" who can't do anything to save us but on our practice...Shakyamuni couldn't do anything for us so sorry HD, but you're stuck hanging out with me for a bit longer!

[DSFriend]

Is the Dalai Lama institution that important to Tibetan Buddhism? Yes...and No. Yes if it exist to fulfill it's purpose. Will there be another recognised Dalai Lama incarnation..? The enlightened ones never had any problems deciding where to go next... well, without a head, I wonder what will be of TGIE. As of now, TGIE has existed solely to carry out the instructions and wishes of Dalai Lama. So, who is going to oppress Dorje Shugden and Shugden practitioners?!

[DharmaDefender]

Is the Dalai Lama institution that important to Tibetan Buddhism? Yes...and No. Yes if it exist to fulfill it's purpose. Will there be another recognised Dalai Lama incarnation..? The enlightened ones never had any problems deciding where to go next... well, without a head, I wonder what will be of TGIE. As of now, TGIE has existed solely to carry out the instructions and wishes of Dalai Lama. So, who is going to oppress Dorje Shugden and Shugden practitioners?!

Hmm your statement makes His Holiness sound like a bit of a despot...can you please clarify your words DSFriend, because I hope that that's not what you meant to say.

I wonder without the mystique of reincarnation, since many are so superstitious already, if the Tibetans will revere the chosen successor. And how sad that they don't already have a programme of grooming successors - this poor boy is going to be thrown into the deep-end, stuck with a government of manipulative people who are already trying to get out of Dharamsala. On the other hand, that boy will probably receive the best Dharma education anyone could hope for, so maybe things won't be so bad for him after all.

[shugdenprotect]

Hmmm…. What can I say? The Dalai Lama seems to be changing the was of doing  things in the Dalai Lama institution as well as the Tibetan Buddhism institution. The changes he speaks about are not small matters but major aspects of Tibetan tradition such as his succession procedure.

•   Hmmm, this video is getting a lot of “Hmmm…” in the forum discussion.

The Dalai Lama is making huge waves with his recent statements and so are Dorje Shugden practitioners (e.g. the announcement of the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen).

We are being prepared for something really big and, by gut feeling, something good that will benefit sentient beings tremendously. I have complete faith in the compassion, wisdom and skillful ways of the Buddhas, Dharma and Sangha.

[crazycloud]

Or is not a real person. Shugdenprotect? hmmmmm....

[emptymountains]

That video was from a talk in front a Western audience. Tibetans already know that the Karmapa is being put in place by the Dalai Lama to succeed him, no? (There is a YouTube video on this, showing their meeting, which has been discussed on this forum before.) Anyways, if the Dalai Lama is truly interested in separating Tibetan politics from religion, why put another monk in robes in the position?

[WisdomBeing]

if the karmapa succeeds the Dalai Lama, i hope that he follows the style of the 16th Karmapa. I can't recall the story exactly but i believe that the 16th Karmapa was once officiating at the opening of a temple in Nepal, when he saw a picture in the temple of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden. He was so unhappy to see it that he left the temple without taking part in the ceremony.

I think i read this story in the forum some time ago and i tried to search for it but couldn't find it. If i recollect wrongly, please let me know

[Vajraprotector]

if the karmapa succeeds the Dalai Lama, i hope that he follows the style of the 16th Karmapa. I can't recall the story exactly but i believe that the 16th Karmapa was once officiating at the opening of a temple in Nepal, when he saw a picture in the temple of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden. He was so unhappy to see it that he left the temple without taking part in the ceremony.

I think i read this story in the forum some time ago and i tried to search for it but couldn't find it. If i recollect wrongly, please let me know

I couldn't find the page either. But I think it was that the Karmapa asked who commissioned the statue, and he said he never asked for something like this to be done. And that the Karmapa asked them to remove the statue.

[Vajraprotector]

That video was from a talk in front a Western audience. Tibetans already know that the Karmapa is being put in place by the Dalai Lama to succeed him, no? (There is a YouTube video on this, showing their meeting, which has been discussed on this forum before.) Anyways, if the Dalai Lama is truly interested in separating Tibetan politics from religion, why put another monk in robes in the position?

Perhaps the Tibetans still need a leader who's a spiritual figure to guide them? I mean even if Dalai Lama chooses someone high ranking in his government as his successor in the political scene, eg the Kalon Tripa/ Prime Minister- Samdhong Rinpoche is still a monk and is recognised as the reincarnation of the 4th Samdhong Rinpoche and enthroned in Gaden Dechenling Monastery. And Samdhong Rinpoche is not as popular as the current 17th Karmapa worldwide.

Also, forget about the secular and politics, where will the Tibetans (from different sects) go to for guidance when it comes to issues related to religion and there is needs for all 4 main schools' head to meet and discuss? Someone needs to be the head/ coordinator for this surely? The Tibetan monastic institutions and practices are very much alive and growing, hence there is still much need for someone to head the religious/ spiritual side of the government.

[DharmaDefender]

"Hmm your statement makes His Holiness sound like a bit of a despot..." I thought that was self evident.

At least we know Whom Will Succeed the Dalia Lama.

With respect, only to yourself and some others, sir but not to everyone. To each his own...besides, if you don't trust the Dalai Lama, why would you trust who he has chosen as his successor? It doesn't really match.

if the karmapa succeeds the Dalai Lama, i hope that he follows the style of the 16th Karmapa. I can't recall the story exactly but i believe that the 16th Karmapa was once officiating at the opening of a temple in Nepal, when he saw a picture in the temple of Guru Rinpoche stepping on Dorje Shugden. He was so unhappy to see it that he left the temple without taking part in the ceremony.

I think i read this story in the forum some time ago and i tried to search for it but couldn't find it. If i recollect wrongly, please let me know

I couldn't find the page either. But I think it was that the Karmapa asked who commissioned the statue, and he said he never asked for something like this to be done. And that the Karmapa asked them to remove the statue.

I had a look, it was on a thread titled HH the 16th Karmapa: a deity that one must rely on in the future. I can't seem to access the thread anymore but the quote is available elsewhere on the web:

While the Sixteenth Karmapa (the previous Karmapa) was on a pilgrimage in Nepal he stopped at Urgyen Rinpoche’s new monastery. At that time the Nepalese king and queen were there and came out to greet him with a scarf. When he went into the monastery there was a statue of Guru Dragpo with Dharmapala Shugden being pressed down under the statue’s feet. The Karmapa stood in the presence of the statue for awhile, then pointed his finger at it and asked “who is the person that said to build this statue?  This isn’t Nyingma nor Sakya, certainly not Gelug and not Kagyu either. I didn’t say to build it, this is not one of the deities you can’t rely on (meaning you can rely on Dorje Shugden). Although the time is a little early in the future you will definitely need to rely on this deity.” (Dorje Shugden) Out of all the abbots and masters present not one came forward to answer. The Karmapa said “remove this now.” Immediately a person with an axe and shovel came and had to remove it. Many lamas present at that time definitely remember, a seventy five year old man from Chamdo called Samcho witnessed this event.

The original was by Trinley Kelsang, extracted from Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche's Collected Works.

[vajratruth]

Is the Dalai Lama institution that important to Tibetan Buddhism? Yes...and No. Yes if it exist to fulfill it's purpose. Will there be another recognised Dalai Lama incarnation..? The enlightened ones never had any problems deciding where to go next... well, without a head, I wonder what will be of TGIE. As of now, TGIE has existed solely to carry out the instructions and wishes of Dalai Lama. So, who is going to oppress Dorje Shugden and Shugden practitioners?!

The institution of the Dalai Lama to Tibetan Buddhism today is more symbolic, however it is also an effective vehicle to control the Tibetan people because of their culture and so it serves very well as a political tool. It is also a ready platform for anyone who controls the institution of the Dalai Lama get into the hearts and minds of practitioners all over the world and therefore many are keen to control it.

What DSFriend said is interesting. For so long the CTA (ex TGIE) has carried out the will of the Dalai Lama and the basis of its power rests on Dalai Lama. This is very different to the system of successful democracies where the basis of power is the people’s Constitution, which the people protect and it in turns protect them. But now that the Dalai Lama has resigned from his political and secular roles, the CTA is left without their lance and shield and they cannot now rely on the Tibetan Constitution that the government itself dealt a deadly blow to, when they imposed the Dorje Shugden ban which flies in the face of the Constitutions of every single modern civilized and democratic country in the world. How can the CTA rely on an instrument that they themselves flouted so openly and broke.

By their own doing, we see how the CTA essentially nullified their own power base and in the process lost their credibility and standing within their own community and internationally. That explains why the Kashag was insistent on the Dalai Lama having some symbolic role within the CTA. Whoever succeeds the Dalai Lama will succeed as the spiritual head of the Tibetans not the political head and so the CTA has lost their crutch forever.

Anywhere else this government would have been overthrown a long time ago by the will of the people and by the looks of there being more and more dissenting voices against the CTA, that day may be soon.

[vajrastorm]

Is the Dalai lama an institution? Or is he the man who is the 14th Dalai Lama? So let's begin with the Dalai Lama as an institution. As HH Dalai Lama says, the institution of the Dalai Lama can fade away. Just like the Buddha is not an institution, neither is the Dalai Lama. What is more important are the teachings. The Buddha's teachings have endured to this day. So too will the Dalai Lama's books and teachings of the Dharma endure.

HH Dalai  Lama was chosen as a successor to the 13th Dalai Lama following strict guidelines that had existed for a long time. HH Dalai Lama was already 'discovere', as the successor when he was only two years old. He fitted the god-king image that tradition-bound Tibetans had of their Dalai Lama. Furthermore, the charisma of the current Dalai Lama has lent much aura to this image. However, if He  were to pass on, the traditional method would be made a mockery of by the Chinese. They would choose their own successor and proclaim him as the legitimate successor. However closely the Tibetans follow the traditional process of ascertaining the successor, the Chinese would impose their own selected Dalai Lama on the Tibetans. When that happens, will there be two Dalai Lamas, one Chinese-appointed one within Tibet(in China) and one outside Tibet - in India?

Then again, if we look hard at the Tibetans of today, there are now two groups- one group still in Tibet and the other group is made up of the  diaspora outside Tibet.For the ones in Tibet, Tibetan culture and tradition regarding   the Dalai Lama as a God-king, would by now have no strong hold on their minds. By now, there would be a much reduced number of Tibetans within Tibet seeing the Dalai Lama as the god-king, as those, who had wanted to see HH Dalai Lama free Tibet, have been deeply disappointed in Him. The diaspora outside Tibet are mostly bent on pursuing the comfortable life that the Western  countries seem to offer them than to continue maintaining devotion to a god-king in exile.

Thus by these counts, it is unlikely that there will be much interest in a successor to the Dalai Lama, especially now that he has given up His political role. Also, people today, including the Tibetans-in-exile, are not so concerned about someone who had held sway in Tibet(as both spiritual and temporal head), before the Chinese invasion.

 

[WisdomBeing]

I think that the once the Dalai Lama passes into clear light (Not soon, as we all hope, I am sure), it will take awhile for the next incarnation to be identified. In the meantime, there will be the 11th Panchen Lama, Gyancain Norbu, who will be forever seen as the controversial “Chinese” Panchen Lama. Whether this Panchen Lama will be accepted on a world scale as the Dalai Lama was will remain to be seen. Why I say this is because he has been kept internal to China all this time and not traveled internationally. I personally do not have any feelings for or against this Panchen Lama as I am waiting to see his character emerge.

However, I am slightly biased towards him because I understand that the Panchen Lama is a Dorje Shugden practitioner and at his official seat, at Tashilhunpo Monastery in Shigatse there is a strong Shugden practice there (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/places/magnificent-dorje-shugden-chapel-in-tashi-lunpo-monastery-tibet/).

Additionally, this Panchen Lama is acknowledged by HE Gangchen Rinpoche, another great Shugden practitioner. So I am curious if and how the Panchen Lama will fill the gap when the Dalai Lama is no longer here.

[Ensapa]

Personally, i think at this rate, the Dalai Lama might just abolish his position or relinquish the position of the head of state to the ruling parties of those that came before him, such as the Karmapas and those from the House of Khons of the Sakya Trinzin lineages. Why? Simple: 1) CTA is overworking him by sending him everywhere just to champion the Tibetan cause (do you do that to the Lama that you love and respect a lot?) 2) They are carrying out his will in the most unbuddhistic manner (Why would you want to kill Dorje Shugden practitioners? How does killing people make Chenresig happy? HELLO? ) and 3) they're using the Dalai Lama's name to incite self immolations in Tibet proper. If I was the Dalai Lama, I WOULD not return to such a government.