Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!

[emptymountains]

skeptic camp rears its ugly head again - you guys are skeptics right?

You don't want to see an end to the ban, you still wish people to suffer from wanting to practice DS, you don't believe in incarnate Lama's, there is nobody who can recognise tulkus, heck even DS himself cannot recognise a incarnate Lama, the world revolves around Geshe La and what he says applies for everything in the universe.

Turing Machine operating again me'thinks. emptymountains and crazyclouds decided to let trinleykalsang have a go at programming, didn't know where the "enter" key was so he got crazycloud to put his glasses on because he sat on his on the way over to the "Lets put down TDG party" at emptymountains house. They had a few too many beers and decided to program the Turin Machine 6.0 with some cheap one liners so that they didn't have to think any deeper about the TDG announcement.

TK's 6 points sum it all up nicely.

And I love the poem it really is something to say and skillful too... perhaps the skeptic party can learn from it

Be not as Doubting Thomas!
The Story is still being told children,
Keep Quiet until it is finished

“You’re not here to accept; you’re here to learn. So if you don’t accept, no one will be offended. I won’t be offended, certainly not!” — Tsem Rinpoche (

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2mdBD1Krc0
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Regarding my skepticism about “Dorje Shugden and Dalai Lama — Spreading Dharma Together,” you will recall this post here (http://www.dorjeshugden.com/forum/index.php?topic=600.msg4684#msg4684). Unless this claim can be established by an incontrovertible reason, it is not conclusive. It is still open to doubt, hence the skepticism. The idea that this whole affair has been a big, grand space opera for the glory of God, I mean Dorje Shugden, is a little offensive. As I said before, playing games with people’s faith is not the pastime of the Buddhas. The following statement from that announcement seems to be preparing us for that, a view which has been questioned time and time again on this forum (such as in the above post): “The final episode in this elaborate epic reveals how the highest Lamas have each played their part to propel Lama Tsongkhapa’s lineage to its highest peak.”

[honeydakini]

I've read with interest all the posts and discussions about the tulku system and am trying to understand clearly where both points of view are coming from.

Having come from a background where this is not something that is commonly accepted or discussed, it was quite a shocker to me in the beginning to learn of this "phenomenon" within the Buddhist world. Plainly, I didn't understand it and didn't really see how it had any relevance to me as a person just trying to navigate my path in the world.

When I first met my teacher, I was told he was a high reincarnated lama of this "this lama" and "that lama" and he has been recognised by "this lama" and "that lama" - it was all just names to me. My teacher himself never talks about being a tulku; he avoids it completely. His take is that if he really was a tulku and if he really was who he is supposed to be, then his actions in this lifetime will arise and prove who he really is. Actually, he said that being identified as who he was pushed him to work and practise harder, to be an even better person and practitioner; not to be lazy and complacent. After all, many of the students who will come across these teachers in this day and age will NOT believe in the fact that he was "so-and-so" in his previous life. They'll say plainly, as I did, "So what? What's he doing NOW?"

This is not to say that the tulku system does not work and does not exist. But, in the case of choosing any teacher, we need to observe and examine a teacher for ourselves, if we believe that this being can really teach, guide and lead us all the way to enlightenment. Whether he is a tulku or not, at this stage, is besides the point, and I don't think we should ever take someone as our teacher just because of his title or status; conversely, I also don't think we should be so quick to judge or criticise him BECAUSE of his title or status.

The true might of a tulku will always be proved in his actions wherever he is; but from our side, for the sake of our own pure Dharma practice and attainments, this process of checking is very important. Once we have taken our teacher, and committed to studying under him all the way, then plainly, what does it matter to us whether someone else out there is tulku or not, political or not, fake or not... there will always be fakes and there will always be people who get swept up in being political. We cannot go around changing the whole wide world and an entire system that has existed for hundreds of years. But, like I have always said, we can make a difference in our own practice, our own devotion/commitment to our teacher and showing the world a good and worthy example of our teacher. If we believe our teachers to be who they really are and wish for other people to learn and study under someone authentic, real, wise, compassion like them, then represent them well, be a good example and lead others to correct and beneficial teachers and practice in that way.

Having said that, there are also thousands of people out there in the world who have great faith in the tulku system - they have been fortunate enough to been brought up in a world where this is normal and where they have, I am sure, perceived the immense benefit and might that these beings have brought to the world by their (continued )teachings and actions. I daresay that are thousands of people out there in the world who have benefited by this belief, stayed loyal and steadfast in their Dharma practice because of their belief and gained realisation and attainment by it. Who are we to jump in, mid-21st-century and say, "oh the whole thing is a hoax, it is not accurate, it is dangerous"?

At the end of the day, whether we do believe in the tulku system or we don't believe in it at all, our own actions as dharma practitioners will reflect what we are saying and most importantly, will reflect the greatness of the very teachers or tulkus we are devoted to. If we have teachers who have been recognised as tulkus, and we go about acting rudely and unkindly, then the world will look at us and say, "I don't believe that tulkus are at all effective or powerful because look at how their students have turned out". If we have teachers are that NOT tulkus and we go around criticising the tulku system, then people will also look at us and say, "that teacher can't be very good allowing his students to go around criticising other lamas." Either way, it goes back to how we are reflecting our own teachers and the whole institution upon which our practice is based on.
 
Sitting on a forum discussing endlessly the qualities, merit, demerit of the entire tulku system does not inspire anyone. It just creates more doubt, more uncertainty, makes more people lose faith. This isn't what we want I'm sure.

[WisdomBeing]

My personal view is, if they are fake Tulkus but are doing great work to benefit the world, I support them

I would put the onus of conscience on them.  In particular the Bodhisattva Vows mentions not to make claims of attainments one does not have, etc.  In other words, they shouldn't claim to be something they are not.

Dear Trinley

I agree with you - if they are a Buddhist, let alone an attained being who can control their rebirths, they would know about karma. If they know about karma, they would know the consequence of declaring themselves to be who they are not.

As far as i know, many of the high Lamas do not declare themselves to be a reincarnation. Usually they are identified as one and extensive checking by other Lamas and via divination or consulting the oracle is done. Only then is their status confirmed?

Hypothetically, if Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen did surface as a reincarnation (100% for sure), how would you feel? I'm just curious. Now we are debating if he/she is a real reincarnation or not etc but if for example, your guru were to say yes this is the real deal, what would your reaction be?

[DSFriend]

Beautiful post left on article entitled:  THE RETURN OF THE KING: KYABJE DRAKPA GYELTSEN RINPOCHE http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=3979

JC says:
July 8, 2010 at 4:28 pm

I am a follower of Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, and while oracles are not used in our tradition I wanted to show that not all of Geshe-la’s followers feel the same about this news. I think this is very exciting and interesting, and I am very happy that everyone on the site is so overjoyed. Although Geshe-la does not promote the use of oracles, more importantly he says we respect ALL other traditions and do not criticize them – this is breaking your commitments. TK’s post raises many good questions about the Kadampa tradition and what will happen after Geshe-la, I have these questions myself.
I am excited to see what the impact of this is – I very much hope we can have harmony between Shugden and non-Shugden practitioners. I follow many of the Shugden sites, and I really appreciate that this one is focused more on reconciliation between the two groups.

[LosangKhyentse]

The Supreme Protector of Dharma
Our Supreme Defender of the Dharma
Our Champion Lord Dorje Shugden Arisen
We Rise With Him
Hold Onto Your Hats!

Excellent! May Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen live long! TK

[DSFriend]

This is the definitive Dorje Shugden website and what you say here is a reflection of Dorje Shugden’s lineage, and this is how you ‘welcome’ the news that an incarnation is found?! I think even if the real incarnation of Tsongkhapa is back and is on this forum, the people here will start the same argument and doubt that he’s not.

The problem here is this.  I don't know of anyone here waiting for an official Dorje Shugden incarnation.  Many accept he could appear as one of the eight guiding monks or whatever, but entitling someone as the living Dorje Shugden incarnation is probably quite different from what many were expecting.  We were taught in teachings that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was the final incarnation before becoming Dorje Shugden.  I am not precluding the possibility of emanations or whatever, but that is more spiritual than official.

Nor am I awaiting Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation.  Listen, please, Je Tsongkhapa, for the benefit of sentient beings don't come back to this world now!  It is so degenerate and no matter how pure you are your good name and example as Lobsang Dragpa will certainly be spoiled!  It will be of much greater benefit for us to focus on you as you set an immaculate example in the 14th century rather than a form in the 21st century.

Well, there are incarnations of Dorje Shugden...

According to the Sakyapas, the SON and GRANDFATHER of the 35th Sakya Trizin, Dolma Phodrang Thegchen Tashi Rinchen's are incarnations of Dorje Shugden.

How? well...
The 31st Sakya Throneholder Sachen Kunga Lodro (wrote Swirl of Perfect Sense Offerings) was believed to have been an incarnation of Dorje Shugden. A few generations past, and in 1850, Sakya Tri Sachen Kunga Lodro then took another reincarnation as his own grandson, the great Sakya Kunga Nyingpo (37th Sakya Trizin)!

Do check out the details which TK has posted under "Sakya Throne Holders Say Shugden is..... " thread.

[Lone Hermit]

H.O.A.X

Have to agree with this.

Who is he?
Where is he?
Who recognized him?

For all we know he could be a Chinese propaganda stooge as compromised as the fake Panchen. Chinese meddling in this business will eventually create many problems for us.

Give us the facts not meaningless promises then certainty will arise and doubts will be dispelled.

[thaimonk]

1. Since no one knows where Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen is now, it is premature to say it is not true, or it's a poltical tulku, etc. You haven't seen the stone said to be a diamond yet. It could be and it could not be. So be open since you know nothing of the person nor circumstances.

When it's revealed, then cast your stones if you can at that time. If a great lama recognized this person decades ago (as it said), who are you to criticize? Why do you surpass the lamas when it comes to the Tulku and Oracle system?? You don't like it, fine. Don't criticize. It has served its purpose well among the elite greats who finds the system genuine and beneficial. Trijang Rinpoche becomes wrong when it comes to issues you don't like, nor our culture doesn't support? Because Geshe Kelsang doesn't support it, then it's wrong. Well if he's saying it's wrong, then maybe he can be wrong also? Didn't Geshe-la forbid forum use? Then are you Geshe-la's students not listening to what he says and turning things around for your advantage? (This is not meant to criticize Geshe-la or his students, it is to bring a point home please-I have nothing against Geshe-la, and at the same time, everything he believes and does I certainly do not agree with as do many people. But I am not going to come down on him because of those issues I don't agree on-everyone does the best they can. After all, Geshe-la is a normal human being with great learning and karma also. So he can make mistakes, but it does not mean he is bad, or should be disrespected in any way.-Again my apologies to say these things, I mean no offence to the great Monk Geshe Kelsang, in fact I respect greatly. ) Just because Geshe Kelsang doesn't approve or support does not mean it is wrong. Or has no purpose.

2.Who recognized this incarnation of Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen? You do not know either. Since you do not know who the lama is, be open and don't judge. What happens if the recognizing lama was the previous Zong Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, Sogpu Rinpoche or even Trijang Rinpoche themselves?

3. Oracles and tulkus may not work in Geshe-la organization and that's fine. But just because Geshe-la does not endorse them, does not mean they have no use. Zong Rinpoche and other high beings found them useful. Trijang Rinpoche blessed monks and people to become oracles. So are you saying Trijang Rinpoche was just doing cheap tricks? Since Trijang Rinpoche is Geshe Kelsang's root guru, it would be good for him not to criticize this practice as it was a practice of his own root guru. If Geshe-la doesn't like the practice, stay quiet otherwise he becomes like Dalai Lama who says Trijiang Rinpoche was sublime except when it came to Dorje Shugden. Trijang Rinpoche during his lifetime recognizes many tulkus for example the previous Dagom Rinpoche who turned out to be a gem. So was Trijang Rinpoche political in recognizing them?

4. Then don't look for the incarnations of Zemey, Trijang, Dagom, Zong, Tendar, Gonsar, Gangchen, Denma Gonsa, Drayab, Panchen, Dromo Geshe, Sogpu, Rabten, Zawa, Dakpo, Pabongka, Daknak, Yongyal Rinpoches. They and many more are tulkus and they turned out fine. More than fine. How many great Geshes with pure monkhood, great learning and practice are arising from the monasteries now? Think? It is a dangerous time. Stop the tulku system within the Gelug and 'erase' all these great names who can do so much, and there is great danger.


So what are you proposing, to not look for any of their incarnations? Not educate them and give them a chance to open the karmas from their previous incarnations? They mess up, mess up. How many ordinary Geshes and monks messed up and disrobed? Countless. Look at Geshe Thupten Jinpa married with two kids. So should we stop the Geshe system and monk ordinations because countless messed up, disrobed and not put their learning/training into use??

What about Gen Samten who was well respected monk and teacher after Geshe-la in Kadampa? He disrobed? So how? The whole system is wrong in Kadampa? How many monks/nuns have left Kadampa? Does that mean it is wrong? Of course not. So stop using negative examples to bring a tradition that worked for the most part. In samsara both ways cannot, so just accept make do. Geshe-la system doesn't fully work. It will be interesting to see what happens to Kadampa after Geshe-la passes away (forgive me for even saying that-apologies).

Don't simply put the tulkus and oracles down. The greats of our lineage that transmit the pure doctrine to us regarded the tulku system with high regard. They also talked to Dorje Shugden via the oracles thousands of times in their lifetimes. Since they are such great teachers, with great intelligence, precise logic, tremendous experience, we should respect what they respect for the most part. If we don't like, we don't have to name what they respect or recognize as hoax, or political or wrong. Then if they are wrong, why practice what they teach? Since they are right, you have beings like Geshe Kelsang existing today.

5. This issue of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and what happened to him after being strangled is a big issue on the plateau of Tibetan Buddhism for the most part. Maybe it has no followers in the greater part of the world, but if this issue is not big and shattering for those involved, why are we on this forum? Most of the 6 billion ppl on this planet don't give a hoot as to what we are debating about in this forum. So does that mean it is not important? Out of 6 billion ppl in the world only around 360 million are Buddhists. From this number, how many are Tibetan Buddhists? Again how many our Gelugs and in our lineage? Becomea small doesn't it? So what's the point?

The rarity of Lama Tzongkapa's tradition is acknowledged clearly. Numbers doesn't make it not important. If what happened to Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was not important and still holds no relevance, then we would all be good friends of Dalai Lama and even perhaps his students? Geshe Kelsang and Dalai Lama would be the best of friends, after all, isn't that what Great Geshes like themselves should be-forgiving, loving, humble and accepting and loving all sentient beings? NOT 'against' each other and having protests against the other? Is that monkly? Samsara has never been perfect. Why look for something that has never existed? View of how you want to be although we are stuck in dualism, lack of merit and zero attainments?

6. There's nothing political about Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen not being able to be silenced. Silenced in this case means to let people think he was evil or became a spirit or not fit to teach. He is back which means those who WERE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED IN KILLING HIM WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL! HE HAS BEEN BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN AND NOW AGAIN and unfortunately all the energy TGIE spent on erasing him did not work.

Be gentle. Don't criticize. Watch. Observe. Reserve judgement till you know the FULL DETAILS OF THIS KYABJE DRAKPA GYELTSEN. He could surprise you and turn out great. If he doesn't then you can open up the 'I hate tulkus, banish tulku system' protests/writings/plarcards/opinions again. For now watch. Observe. Be wise and reserve pre-judgement from one announcement on this website and you know nothing of the intimate details yet.

TK

from http://www.nktworld.org

"Another Gyatso exchange - between Gyatso and Samden (the heir Gyatso named in 2005 to become Gyatso's successor as NKT spiritual director but terminated about two years later over sexual conduct)..."

Geshe Kelsang Gyatso aceepted the accusation of Samden's sexual conduct, thus accepting his resignation, but according to Samden,

"I would like to make it clear that in February 2007, I made the decision to leave in order to prepare for and engage in long-term retreat. This decision was founded upon a pure intention, to maintain the lineage of Je Tsongkhapa, and become a perfect Teacher. I did not leave because I felt I had made mistakes; nor was I asked to do so for any such reason.

I believe that a decision that I leave was already made by others - founded upon impure intention, ambition. My departure was already a 'fate' accompli - I could not have stayed."

So, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso could have made a mistake about Samden's issue right?

Also, the website says that in 1998 Geshe-la promised to stop protest against the Dalai Lama, but today Geshe-la is indirectly running the protest again via Western Shugden Society:

"3. When the main body, The Western Shugden Society, organises demonstrations, the NKT needs to voluntarily contribute and help. "

So Geshe-la seemed to have chaned his mind, therefore he could have been wrong about the issue of not recognizing the Tulku and Oracle system also right?

So, just because Geshela doesn't recognize tulku, doesn't mean he is right, doesn't mean the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen doesn't exist, or that it is a hoax.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

So Geshe-la seemed to have chaned his mind, therefore he could have been wrong about the issue of not recognizing the Tulku and Oracle system also right?

So, just because Geshela doesn't recognize tulku, doesn't mean he is right, doesn't mean the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen doesn't exist, or that it is a hoax.

GKG has surely changed his mind. But so has Shakyamuni Buddha himself. Changing minds and being right have nothing to do with each other; in fact, sometimes one necessitates the other, while sometimes not.

Also, the "not recognizing" -issue is merely an organizational policy of NKT, not a statement of the existence of tulkus and oracles. Surely GKG knew his uncle and accepted his work as an oracle. The NKT policy is nothing more than say, not giving special seats on a bus for oracles, for Thai Bus Companies do not recognize oracles. Monks they do recognize, and give special treatment. It is an organizational policy, not truth statement.

So please everyone, try not to confuse separate issues.

[Mohani]

Good point Zhalmed,
It's quite clear that Geshe-la is not saying oracles are wrong, divination is wrong, tulkus are wrong. One of Geshe-las long life prayers is written by duldzin in trance, Geshe-la refers to divination when talking about identifying his mother. As Zhalmed says this is organisational. Geshe-la teaches just what we need to attain enlightenment. My wife  is not into oracles and so forth but she is a very keen practitioner who practices lamrim lojong and mahamudra very purely as far as I can see. She is put off by the other stuff, many people find it a bit strange, Geshe-la has presented dharma that is without the weirdness. Don't get me wrong I have nothing against the weirdness, I like it, but it is not neccersary for the practice of modern buddhism as Geshe-la presents it. Fine if people still use these things. I rejoice is Geshe-las forsight and skill in presenting the Dharma to a modern world.
 

[LosangKhyentse]

So Geshe-la seemed to have chaned his mind, therefore he could have been wrong about the issue of not recognizing the Tulku and Oracle system also right?

So, just because Geshela doesn't recognize tulku, doesn't mean he is right, doesn't mean the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen doesn't exist, or that it is a hoax.

GKG has surely changed his mind. But so has Shakyamuni Buddha himself. Changing minds and being right have nothing to do with each other; in fact, sometimes one necessitates the other, while sometimes not.

Also, the "not recognizing" -issue is merely an organizational policy of NKT, not a statement of the existence of tulkus and oracles. Surely GKG knew his uncle and accepted his work as an oracle. The NKT policy is nothing more than say, not giving special seats on a bus for oracles, for Thai Bus Companies do not recognize oracles. Monks they do recognize, and give special treatment. It is an organizational policy, not truth statement.

So please everyone, try not to confuse separate issues.

Geshe-la did give special treatment to his oracle uncle. Geshe-la invited his uncle the oracle several times to UK. In fact his oracle uncle took trance of Dulzin for over three hours and GAVE INITIATION OF AVALOKITESVARA to the students there one one occasion. That is how much the power of the oracle was revered before in NKT. Many trances were taken and Geshe-la privately consulted Dorje Shugden on many issues re himself, his deceased mother, the organization on the whole. So there is nothing weird about the whole oracle practice. Some of the greats like Pabongka, Trijang and Zong Rinpoches consulted oracles their whole lives and taught lojong/realized lojong also in their mindstreams. So part of what they do is great and part is weird? I don't think so. We accept what we don't understand about our lamas and refrain from labelling would be better conduct.

It was a rare occasion, when Dulzin took trance and gave initiation in Geshe-la's centre. The Oracle Uncle was very respected, was given a seat of honour in the pujas there, many students came to receive his blessings when he was not in trance also. This all stopped when Geshe-la and his uncle has a huge fall out and NEVER SPOKE AGAIN UNTIL THE ORACLE'S DEATH A FEW YEARS BACK. So Geshe-la had a personal fall out with his Oracle Uncle and it all came to an end. Yes policies change and Geshe-la changes his mind. But it also means he can make mistakes (sorry). Geshe-la's policies are GOOD FOR NKT AND THEIR MEMBERS, but his policies should not be seen as overview rule of thumb for all Tibetan Traditions around the world and their centres for example tulkus and oracles. NKT doesn't 'accept' does not mean it is weird, wrong, or not applicable in thousands of other places. I have had EXCELLET EXPERIENCES WITH ORACLES AND TULKUS IN MY LIFETIME AS SCORES OF MY FRIENDS also. And we love lojong, lam rim, and it's practices as these are our main practices always.

Geshe-la very much agreed with oracles and their usage, until his personal fallout with his uncle. That is a fact. Then his policies with oracles in NKT changed. But we don't have to change our 'policies' regarding them and no one should berate us for it also. No one has the right.

Geshe-la / NKT received huge negative media and backlash because of the '1st wave' of protests organized by Geshe-la against the Dalai Lama. Some of his key supporters felt the backlash, spoke up and some left. Geshe-la realized it was a mistake to protest so openly saying it is from him. He made a mistake. His policies changed. Next time around, it was the WSS with him supporting them from behind and 'not' NKT that organized the huge wave of protests. Don't get me wrong, I feel Geshe-la is courageous. I prayed for him and his long life. I still do. My point is policies he makes can be changed according to student's aptitude, place, time and also mistakes. THAT IS OK. But just because NKT's policies do not give a 'special bus seat' to oracles and tulkus does not mean their policies are correct for everyone.  Or these institutions should be 'disparaged', 'ridiculed' or spoken against in the thousands of other places they have positive effects and benefits. Also for hundreds of years in some cases. Geshe-la can make mistakes, but it does not mean he is not a authentic practitioner of sutra/tantra and very qualified to teach. He is very qualified. But his personal disagreemants with oracles does not set the plateau for everyone. Nor should his students comment negatively to non-NKT students who accept oracles and tulkus.

The backlash against Geshe-la/NKT was huge, but the protests brought attention to our cause onto the world stage. It gave a voice to where none would be heard. How compassionate of Geshe-la and courageous. How devoted and strong of his students that participated. I respect them very much on the whole as well as many dorje shugden lamas, centres and students around the world. With folded hands to Geshe-la and NKT deeply.

Dromo Geshes ( a great tulku on his '3rd' incarnation hasn't 'messed' up yet) always had great oracles in his monasteries. His last oracle Lhakpa Dondrub) passed away a few years back. Dromo Geshe had special chapel, thrones and places in his monasteries for his dorje shugden oracles. The last one was a layman also!

Trijang Rinpoche blessed, consecrated, oversaw the training of Choyang Dulzin Kuten (Geshe-la's Uncle) and then authorized him as genuine when training completed. Zong Rinpoche consulted the oracle for most important issues until his last days and lived next door to the oracle in Gaden. Zong Rinpoche had a special oracle house and temple (Trokhang Dechen Chok) built for Dorje Shugden in Gaden. It has a special throne for the oracle to sit on in order to take trance right at the centre of the main shrine. This place exists today still. All of Gaden Shartse's abbots, ex abbots, tulkus, Geshes, and sangha would have yearly audience on the Tibetan 1st month and 3rd day of New Year's (losar). The whole sangha would be blessed by both Shugden and then Setrap entering Choyang Dulzin Kuten in the main prayer hall of Shartse. Yes the whole sangha. Also countless lamas, representatives from  Gaden Jangtze, Drepung and laity would jam the prayer hall yearly in Shartse for their blessings and pronouncements. Gaden Jangtse's administrators would ask questions of Shugden during trance for the welfare of the whole Gaden Jangtze institution. The same in Sera boompra khangtsen with their Shugden oracle, where Kache Marpo takes trance. All has stopped because of the ban.

Both Gaden and Sera oracles were put into retreat for more than five years intense, examined, blessed and authorized by His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang in the end. The current oracle of Gaden is a student of  the previoius Zong Rinpoche, and Zong Rinpoche mentioned years ago that he would be an oracle. So if Geshe-la does not find them fitting for NKT, or his students find it weird, Gaden, Sera and Drepung did not. To each his own.


Many Geshes, teachers, Lamas consult the Gameng Choyang Kuten in US and Sera Oracle (authorized by Trijang Rinpoche, and this oracle's father was also an oracle of Shugden) residing in Taiwan. They derive many benefits again and again. All of Shar Gaden Monastery invited the Gameng Choyang Kuten for their grand opening and had Dulzin peaceful/wrathful both take trance, bless the premises, answer questions and give prophecies to their successful survival.

When Geshe-la passes away (very sorry to mention this), what happens to his incarnation? If recognized? Not recognized is fine also. But Geshe-la recognized his own mother's incarnation and makes sure she grows up to practice dharma again. No special seats, but why recognize her at all then. Just recognizing her is saying alot already.


Thai bus company will not give a special seat to the oracle on their buses but will give to monks, and that is true. But only to their monks. They do not recognize monks of the Tibetan Tradition. They do not feel it is a valid monkhood. So in Thailand, monks of the Tibetan tradition gets no discounts, no special seating (airplanes, taxis,etc), no religious priviledges their own monks receive. So their example is not applicable here at all.

Believing, propitiating or trusting oracles and tulkus DOES NOT MEAN THAT IS THE MAIN FOCUS OR PRACTICE EVER. The main practice would be all the teachings on MIND TRANSFORMATION coupled with annurtara tantra of generation and completion stages for sure. That is the real protection from everything in samsara. But along the way, why not alittle help from our friends via the oracle.


TK

(no offence/disrespect intended to Geshe-la in anyway or the vast institution of NKT-may they last thousands of years. If it was another situation, I could take refuge in Geshe-la as my guru also.)



( previous oracle of Dromo Geshe in Tibet :http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=307 )

(The photo below is of the famous and very beneficial oracle of Dromo Geshe's who resided in Kalimpong but now passed away. He was very clear and concise with his predictions and very loved by Dromo Geshe and many great lamas/laity who consulted him. The oracle's name is Lhakpa Dondrub. He was a nice man also. I met and stayed with him. He would go into hundreds of trances per year and help so many. Unbelievable. But he himself was very devoted to Tsongkapa, Dromo Geshe, his practices and lived modestly.

Dromo Geshe was very realized and he had the oracles in his monasteries to help the countless that were not when Shugden entered them to speak. Amazing, skilfull, multi-faceted actions by attained minds. Many methods to benefit those who have desperate situations and lojong has not been actualized in their minds yet. May the oracle system live long and continue. May Dorje Shugden continue choosing his oracles as he has for 350 years.

If Nechung, Gadong, Yudroma, Tsering Chenga can choose oracles and take trance and thousands flock to dharamsala to have audience, WHY NOT OUR DORJE SHUGDEN. HE IS MUCH GREATER AND TAKING TRANCE TO SPEAK AND HELP US CAN BE DONE IN HIS 'SLEEP'!)

[WisdomBeing]

Thank you very much for that sharing. It seems clear that GKG rejected oracles on a personal basis. If he consulted them before, then oracles must have been valid. I like your point that the great Monasteries of Gaden and Sera have consulted oracles throughout the years, and that Shar Gaden's opening was officiated by the Gameng Choyang Kuten, so if oracles were not real, all this would not have happened. I think i prefer to believe the many monks of these holy institutions.

[LosangKhyentse]

Thank you very much for that sharing. It seems clear that GKG rejected oracles on a personal basis. If he consulted them before, then oracles must have been valid. I like your point that the great Monasteries of Gaden and Sera have consulted oracles throughout the years, and that Shar Gaden's opening was officiated by the Gameng Choyang Kuten, so if oracles were not real, all this would not have happened. I think i prefer to believe the many monks of these holy institutions.

Gameng Choyang Kuten didn't officiate the opening of Shar Gaden. But Dorje Shugden himself officiated by taking trance of Gameng, and officiated with a Wisdom Dance, acceptance of offerings and advice/prophecies.

Just think of how many Lojong-Lam Rim-Annuttara-tantra-loving sangha were there witnessing this great event and feeling blessed to be in Dorje Shugden's presence via Gameng. Giving them hope, anwering questions, giving direction when they are so isolated and surpressed not like our beloved dharma brothers/sisters who practice freely in democratic countries around the world.  The videos of this are on the homepage of this website of the event. I have watched the videos of Dorje Shugden take trance hundreds of times. I have downloaded onto my phone and watch when travelling. Like those monks, it gives me great hope. If Trijang Rinpoche/Zong Rinpoche/Dromo Geshe Rinpoche attained Lam Rim in their mindstreams and 'rely' on oracles (at least for us), then a nobody like me will follow their footsteps. Or at least not berate what I don't understand yet fully. Just keep a respectful silence while absorbing and learning. Shugden in oracles will not liberate us from samsara, but can sure help while I am stuck here and not actualized realizations yet. 

The abbot, ex abbots, lamas, sangha can accept the oracle. They are the lineage holders of all that we hold dear. HH Gaden Trisur Rinpoche fully accepts the oracle and Shugden's trance according to his assistants in Shar Gaden. So when it comes to Lam Rim, Panchen Sonam Drakpa's commentaries, the commentaries of the 6 Ornaments and Two Supremes, Madhyamika, Heruka, Yamantaka, Guhyasamaja, and thousands of hours of debate, these sangha we can rely on and trust and follow. We praise them, prostrate to them, and take refuge, but when it comes to oracles, they are weird?? They are illogical or it's wrong? NKT policies should be applied to them? I don't think so. Again, these traditions are not arbitrary nor started for negative reasons. They have their valid function and purpose backed up by 1,000 years of rich Buddhist traditions.

Hence we should think, it may not be in our culture, well neither is momos/tibetan tea/tsampa, but so what?  It could be fine. Never look through the lens of our culture/upbringing/familiarity to 'judge' another's. It is baseless and dual.

So the oracle tradition is not weird but a sacred, majestic, rich living legacy of Buddhism & its illustrious Masters from the land of the snows and now to the world.

TK

[Mohani]

Hi Tk,
I like the oracle tradition, but I can understand why people may think it is weird can't you?
I have not said that I think the oracle tradition is wrong, of course it has it's place.
I thought Geshe-las uncle was invited by Geshe-las students not Geshe-la.

[LosangKhyentse]

Hi Tk,
I like the oracle tradition, but I can understand why people may think it is weird can't you?
I have not said that I think the oracle tradition is wrong, of course it has it's place.
I thought Geshe-las uncle was invited by Geshe-las students not Geshe-la.

No, Geshe-la himself invited his uncle the Oracle to UK. What's the difference, if it doesn't have Geshe-la's approval do you think they would just invite such a person to headquarters in UK? Definitely not. Geshe-la is well known to remove people who are not in sync with him. He has his reasons I am sure. Anyway 100 percent confirmed it was Geshe-la who extended the invitation to his uncle he had not seen for many years. Also to consult Dorje Shugden on some important matters at that time through his uncle. Do you think Geshe-la would have allowed Oracle to take trance and give initiation of Avalokitesvara in his own headquarters??? Everyone knows Geshe-la allows no teachers of any other centre, monastery or what not to teach in his centres around the world let alone an initiation. Only NKT teach NKT members. Everything had Geshe-la's full approval.

I don't think the oracle tradition is weird at all, but DIFFERENT. To some the whole of Tibetan Buddhism is weird. So what. It doesn't make it weird, and those people who have manners would just have to respect.

Thank you for your thoughts very much,

tk