Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!

[LosangKhyentse]

I find it strange that so many are so willing to make up their minds before more information is available. The monks here at Shar Gaden seem to see this news with a more optimistic view. None that I have talked to have made up their minds, one way or another, before hearing more. I will follow their example.

I agree with you Tenzin Sungrab. I agree with the monks. Just be optimistic without making up your minds. I have followed their example and your's. Thank you for the sane logic.

I also go along with the brave sangha of Shar Gaden, Tenzin Sungrab and Thaimonk.
TK

[crazycloud]

Incarnations can be recognized many decades later for seen and unseen reasons. Definitely possible.

It really does seem like some members of this forum have a straw-man problem. Who ever said it wasn't possible? Whose points are you debating against?

The reasoning presented was being questioned. Why is there such a strong negative reaction to questioning someone's reasoning here? It feels slightly hysterical to me.

Whatever you may think that there was no controversy with the Shugden issue WITHIN THE TIBETAN communities prior to the 90's, there were already in the late 80's.

Of course if you read my post you will see I never said that at all, did I?

 

But the actual line of TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN incarnations HIMSELF WAS BANNED hundreds of years ago.

Now it seems that you are just making things up. For those who understood that TDG had become a Buddha, they understood there would be no rebirth. For those who felt he had become a worldy spirit, there was also no need to search, because he was believed to have become a preta.

Please share with us your source about this "ban" if you are not making it up.

[crazycloud]

I find it strange that so many are so willing to make up their minds before more information is available. The monks here at Shar Gaden seem to see this news with a more optimistic view. None that I have talked to have made up their minds, one way or another, before hearing more. I will follow their example.

I agree with you Tenzin Sungrab. I agree with the monks. Just be optimistic without making up your minds. I have followed their example and your's. Thank you for the sane logic.

I also go along with the brave sangha of Shar Gaden, Tenzin Sungrab and Thaimonk.
TK

Respectfully, why are you equating expressing doubt with having made up one's mind?  I will stand with you two and the monks in the camp of not having decided.  I still doubt a) that is true and b) that it matters. Of course, I make many mistakes, so as you know, I could be wrong, and as such am open to any actual evidence. Attacking misconstrued arguments wont convince me, or anyone else for that matter, however.

I agree with the monks. Just be optimistic without making up your minds. I have followed their example and your's. Thank you for the sane logic.

Just so you know THAIMONK, there is no actual logic here, this is TS expressing his (valid) opinion. Mistaking the two might be the source of the confusion your posts so often evince. 

I find it strange that so many are so willing to make up their minds before more information is available.

So TS, you find it strange that so many have made up their mind, but if you check there is no evidence in the post(s) you were responding to that anyone had made up their mind. Does it seem strange to you that anyone would doubt it?  If so, here are my reasons for doing so.... perhaps this will help you understand my position more clearly...

* No evidence has been produced whatsoever. In my book, that always leaves room for doubt.

*Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen became Dorje Shugden after he died, so there would be no reincarnation, no Tulku.

*This is a completely unheard of phenomenon, recognizing a Tulku of a person who is recognized to have become another entity. For example, Je Tsongkhapa became Senge Ngaro, so you don't find a JTK "tulku."

* If there were an emanation of Dorje Shugden, and of course I believe these are countless, there is no official process of recognition for emantations.

*Enlightened beings don't have Tulkus. Although Tulku literally means "nirmanakaya," the actual nirmanakaya or Tulku is an emanation body, not a controlled rebirth, which is the common meaning of the word "tulku."

[LosangKhyentse]

I find it strange that so many are so willing to make up their minds before more information is available. The monks here at Shar Gaden seem to see this news with a more optimistic view. None that I have talked to have made up their minds, one way or another, before hearing more. I will follow their example.

I really find this appropriate. Since everything we practice comes from the Sangha. If they are open minded, then we should follow suit. It is wonderful to be open. Since you have given us direct feedback that Shar Gaden Monks are open and do not criticize, it is truly a dharma practitioners way of reacting. Thanks.

Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, attained beings all can incarnate again and again in thousands of forms simultaneously. Whether humans ban them or not, they are not bound by the dualistic laws we uphold here.

tk

[LosangKhyentse]

Doubt is fine. Criticism added to doubt and sarcasm to bring the point across is not.

tk

[crazycloud]

Doubt is fine. Criticism added to doubt and sarcasm to bring the point across is not.

tk

What criticism and sarcasm are you referencing?

[crazycloud]

I really find this appropriate. Since everything we practice comes from the Sangha. If they are open minded, then we should follow suit. It is wonderful to be open. Since you have given us direct feedback that Shar Gaden Monks are open and do not criticize, it is truly a dharma practitioners way of reacting. Thanks.

Agree. Let's keep an open mind about this.

Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, attained beings all can incarnate again and again in thousands of forms simultaneously. Whether humans ban them or not, they are not bound by the dualistic laws we uphold here.

tk

when Buddha's incarnate, which is the salient point here in this thread, their "Tulkus" are not recognized as a matter of course. No doubt they emanate constantly.

[LosangKhyentse]

Also, why would it have been necessary to keep this incarnations identity a secret if he were identified twenty years ago? There were no death threats then, no violence, and many great Dorje Shugden Lamas had been reborn and recognized without incident. Things only actually began to heat up mid-nineties.

Exactly.
And if it's not yet the right time to reveal his identity why start a thread like this in the first place?

Does the story that this so called Tulku's identity was kept secret for safety reasons make sense?

Not at all and that's why it's likely this whole TDG story is fiction.

You know, beyond Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, there are very qualified teachers, masters, incarnations and lineage holders ALSO.. So whatever the reasons, why STILL criticize?? Just read it and be still. Wait for the outcome. You may not even be alive when revealed who he is. Why does it bother you so much unless there are other undercurrents you may only know.

The Current 9th Kaka Jetsun Dampa (born in 1932) residing in Dharamsala was recognized OPENLY only in September 1991s as the supreme incarnate teacher of Mongolia.. He was 59 years old already. Now he is 78 years old this year. Just think, he was only officially and more importantly OPENLY RECOGNIZED 55 years after his first and quiet recognition by the Regent Reting Rinpoche at the age of four. No one bothered or knew about him before September 1991. It was hush-hush. Incarnations can be recognized many decades later for seen and unseen reasons. Definitely possible.
 
Installation of the Kaka Jestun Dampa line of reincarnations was banned in Mongolia since 1929. Only a small handful knew who he was for decades and it was kept a secret. But recognizing him many decades back would of upset the Mongolian Govt then a hard line Stalinist-communist regime. Now Mongolia is open to this and hence recognized and living in Dharamsala. But being the current incarnation is Tibetan and not Mongolian, there are still political issues. 

Whatever you may think that there was no controversy with the Shugden issue WITHIN THE TIBETAN communities prior to the 90's, there were already in the late 80's. It just didn't go full blown yet all over the world.
The Geshes and Tulkus around the world greeted the first news of Dorje Shugden not in Dalai Lama's favour with shock/confusion BUT just kept practicing. In fact the problems already started in the late 70's when the Dalai Lama gave up his personal practice. He just didn't blow it up. For him to give up the practice while Trijang Rinpoche was alive was a clear indication of trouble ahead. There were no death threats, or violence with the Dorje Shugden LAMAS. But the actual line of TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN incarnations HIMSELF WAS BANNED hundreds of years ago. Incarnate Dorje Shugden lamas and Drakpa Gyeltsen himself are VERY DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT. The Dalai Lama already believed Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was a negative spirit when he gave up the practice in the late 70's. Wouldn't be prudent if Drakpa Gyeltsen was recognized two decades ago.

Since Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was banned by the Tibetan Govt, it would not serve any monastery's benefit if they enthroned him decades back. They do not wish to bring trouble upon themselves. Since the Dalai Lama gave up his Shugden practice in the late 70's, it would not be a smart move for any monastery to say, well here's Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen back in our Monastery. All Gelug Monasteries back then were in alignment with the Tibetan Govt and Dalai Lama.

THAIMONK



___________________________________________________________________________________________________



"Thus, when the present Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa's incarnation was recognized, at the age of four, by Reting Rinpoche, the Regent in Lhasa, as well as other high lamas and the state oracles, his identity was kept secret due to Stalin's influence and oppression in Mongolia. The country vanished from sight, customs and traditions were buried and lost until the five visits of the Dalai Lama in recent years; the last time was in August 1995 when he gave the Kalachakra Initiation.
 
The Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa was born at Tromtsikang and then moved to Shol, just below the Potala. His father, Lobsang Jampal, was from Phenpo and his mother, Yangchen was from Kham. At the age of seven, he entered Gomang College, Drepung Monastery, as a simple monk where he studied philosophy for fourteen years, up to the level of Madhyamika. At Gomang he studied primarily with a teacher from Mongolia named Geshe Thupten Nyima. He received his dharma lineages from His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
 
His Holiness the Panchen Rinpoche, Gyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Gyabje Ling Rinpoche, and Gyabje Lhatsun Rinpoche were his teachers in the Gelukpa lineage. H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche was his teacher in the Nyingma lineage; Kalu Rinpoche was his teacher in the Kagyu lineage; and Sakya Tenzin Rinpoche was his teacher in the Sakya lineage. At the age of 21, he left Gomang College and Drepung to engage in a series of Chod meditations, living the life of a yogi, while on pilgrimage to the holy sites of Tibet.
 
At the age of 25, he gave back his monastic vows, and then went to stay at Ganden Phunstok Ling, established by his predecesor Taranatha, until the age of 29 when the Chinese invasion forced him into exile, along with hundreds of thousands of Tibetans.
 
In India, he lived with his family in Darjeeling and Mysore, until 1981, and later in Madhya Pradesh in central India until 1990, quietly serving as lama for the Tibetan community in exile throughout that time. During this period of time Rinpoche did many meditations and gave public teachings in the Tibetan settlements several times a year.
 
Then, in 1991, with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the new-found religious freedom felt in Mongolia, many Mongolian monasteries sent their abbots and lamas and ministers to India to request inquiry of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala about the possible location of the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dampa. Did His Holiness know where he was, who he is, and could the Dalai Lama recognize him for the peoples of Mongolia?
 
It was at that time, through the Religious Office of the Tibetan Government in Exile, that the Dalai Lama gave the official stamp of recognition and acknowledgement of the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa, the spiritual head of Buddhism in Mongolia. He moved to Dharamsala to be closer to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and in 1991, he was officially enthroned as the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa, amid great and joyous celebration."

--cited from: http://www.jetsundhampa.com/

Dear Thaimonk,

Thank you for this sharing. It helps so much.

tk

[DSFriend]

Also, why would it have been necessary to keep this incarnations identity a secret if he were identified twenty years ago? There were no death threats then, no violence, and many great Dorje Shugden Lamas had been reborn and recognized without incident. Things only actually began to heat up mid-nineties.

Exactly.
And if it's not yet the right time to reveal his identity why start a thread like this in the first place?

Does the story that this so called Tulku's identity was kept secret for safety reasons make sense?

Not at all and that's why it's likely this whole TDG story is fiction.

You know, beyond Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, there are very qualified teachers, masters, incarnations and lineage holders ALSO.. So whatever the reasons, why STILL criticize?? Just read it and be still. Wait for the outcome. You may not even be alive when revealed who he is. Why does it bother you so much unless there are other undercurrents you may only know.

The Current 9th Kaka Jetsun Dampa (born in 1932) residing in Dharamsala was recognized OPENLY only in September 1991s as the supreme incarnate teacher of Mongolia.. He was 59 years old already. Now he is 78 years old this year. Just think, he was only officially and more importantly OPENLY RECOGNIZED 55 years after his first and quiet recognition by the Regent Reting Rinpoche at the age of four. No one bothered or knew about him before September 1991. It was hush-hush. Incarnations can be recognized many decades later for seen and unseen reasons. Definitely possible.
 
Installation of the Kaka Jestun Dampa line of reincarnations was banned in Mongolia since 1929. Only a small handful knew who he was for decades and it was kept a secret. But recognizing him many decades back would of upset the Mongolian Govt then a hard line Stalinist-communist regime. Now Mongolia is open to this and hence recognized and living in Dharamsala. But being the current incarnation is Tibetan and not Mongolian, there are still political issues. 

Whatever you may think that there was no controversy with the Shugden issue WITHIN THE TIBETAN communities prior to the 90's, there were already in the late 80's. It just didn't go full blown yet all over the world.
The Geshes and Tulkus around the world greeted the first news of Dorje Shugden not in Dalai Lama's favour with shock/confusion BUT just kept practicing. In fact the problems already started in the late 70's when the Dalai Lama gave up his personal practice. He just didn't blow it up. For him to give up the practice while Trijang Rinpoche was alive was a clear indication of trouble ahead. There were no death threats, or violence with the Dorje Shugden LAMAS. But the actual line of TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN incarnations HIMSELF WAS BANNED hundreds of years ago. Incarnate Dorje Shugden lamas and Drakpa Gyeltsen himself are VERY DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT. The Dalai Lama already believed Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was a negative spirit when he gave up the practice in the late 70's. Wouldn't be prudent if Drakpa Gyeltsen was recognized two decades ago.

Since Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was banned by the Tibetan Govt, it would not serve any monastery's benefit if they enthroned him decades back. They do not wish to bring trouble upon themselves. Since the Dalai Lama gave up his Shugden practice in the late 70's, it would not be a smart move for any monastery to say, well here's Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen back in our Monastery. All Gelug Monasteries back then were in alignment with the Tibetan Govt and Dalai Lama.

THAIMONK



___________________________________________________________________________________________________



"Thus, when the present Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa's incarnation was recognized, at the age of four, by Reting Rinpoche, the Regent in Lhasa, as well as other high lamas and the state oracles, his identity was kept secret due to Stalin's influence and oppression in Mongolia. The country vanished from sight, customs and traditions were buried and lost until the five visits of the Dalai Lama in recent years; the last time was in August 1995 when he gave the Kalachakra Initiation.
 
The Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa was born at Tromtsikang and then moved to Shol, just below the Potala. His father, Lobsang Jampal, was from Phenpo and his mother, Yangchen was from Kham. At the age of seven, he entered Gomang College, Drepung Monastery, as a simple monk where he studied philosophy for fourteen years, up to the level of Madhyamika. At Gomang he studied primarily with a teacher from Mongolia named Geshe Thupten Nyima. He received his dharma lineages from His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
 
His Holiness the Panchen Rinpoche, Gyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Gyabje Ling Rinpoche, and Gyabje Lhatsun Rinpoche were his teachers in the Gelukpa lineage. H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche was his teacher in the Nyingma lineage; Kalu Rinpoche was his teacher in the Kagyu lineage; and Sakya Tenzin Rinpoche was his teacher in the Sakya lineage. At the age of 21, he left Gomang College and Drepung to engage in a series of Chod meditations, living the life of a yogi, while on pilgrimage to the holy sites of Tibet.
 
At the age of 25, he gave back his monastic vows, and then went to stay at Ganden Phunstok Ling, established by his predecesor Taranatha, until the age of 29 when the Chinese invasion forced him into exile, along with hundreds of thousands of Tibetans.
 
In India, he lived with his family in Darjeeling and Mysore, until 1981, and later in Madhya Pradesh in central India until 1990, quietly serving as lama for the Tibetan community in exile throughout that time. During this period of time Rinpoche did many meditations and gave public teachings in the Tibetan settlements several times a year.
 
Then, in 1991, with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the new-found religious freedom felt in Mongolia, many Mongolian monasteries sent their abbots and lamas and ministers to India to request inquiry of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala about the possible location of the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dampa. Did His Holiness know where he was, who he is, and could the Dalai Lama recognize him for the peoples of Mongolia?
 
It was at that time, through the Religious Office of the Tibetan Government in Exile, that the Dalai Lama gave the official stamp of recognition and acknowledgement of the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa, the spiritual head of Buddhism in Mongolia. He moved to Dharamsala to be closer to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and in 1991, he was officially enthroned as the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa, amid great and joyous celebration."

--cited from: http://www.jetsundhampa.com/

Dear Thaimonk,

Thank you for this sharing. It helps so much.

tk

Dear Thaimonk
Thank you for the sharing. I had no knowledge of this prior to reading this post. Did the Dalai Lama know where he was, who he is...? He obviously did.
It is interesting to know how these incarnations continues to return amidst the political climate, though not officially enthroned, they continue to fulfill their purpose.

[Helena]

Thank you, Thai Monk for all that sharing. It resonates with what I believe in.

Personally, I believe that Enlightened Beings and Buddhas will continue to emanate whenever they wish, however they wish and in whatever form they wish. And what they wish to do is the same that they have been doing since beginningless time - that is, to benefit all sentient beings and bring them to Enlightenment.

As there are countless minds and in all distortions and forms, I'd seriously doubt that there is just one method or way. Hence, thank goodness that they will continue to emanate in such a variety. Or else, a whole lot of us would surely never get the chance to be ever enlightened.

In this respect, I find it most logical that Enlightened Beings would choose to return as Tulkus and Oracles and everything else in between, at anytime they deem most beneficial. It is what they know that we do not know. Hence, they will know what to do and when to do it, and in whatever form that is best.

There are definitely valid reasons for Enlightened Beings to return as such and in those forms. They undoubtedly have a grand plan in mind to serve the current mind sets of all beings, and in bringing about a certain series of beneficial events. It is we who do not have the merits nor foresight to understand what these plans are until they come into fruition. Hence, the best we can do is not to judge but stay open.

So, I do not find it strange that a Tulku can return after 350 years later, or even 500 years later. THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED. They can do anything!

What moves me deeply is their constant care and compassion for us, the samsara prisoners. They never gave up on us. And never will. Hence, I will never give up believing either.

[crazycloud]

Doubt is fine. Criticism added to doubt and sarcasm to bring the point across is not.

tk

What criticism and sarcasm are you referencing?

Don't be shy, Tk, you mentioned some sarcasm, could you please point it out or else refrain from making such statements in future, please?

[WoselTenzin]

I look forward everyday to the return of the Dharma King. How should we all usher His return?

We usher his return by
1) keeping good samaya with our Guru and Dorje Shugden.
2) be informed about the history, lineage, benefits of Dorje Shugden and his practice so we can explain to people who are not so familiar with this issue.
3) practising harmony with people around us, as always advised by Dorje Shugden.

Dear Wisdom Being,

I really like your answer on how to usher the return of the Great King Dorje Shugden.  It is logical, do-able and perfectly Dharmic.  What a breath of fresh air after all the confrontational remarks flying around.  1 and 3 is what we all should do anyways as Dharma practitioners. 

As for 2, what better way to repay his kindness than to spread his lineage to others so that others can benefit from his practice too.  We should be doing it whether or not his incarnation is back.   The whole purpose of any enlightened being manifesting in our world is so that he can lead beings out of suffering.  Spreading his lineage is synonymous to celebrating his existence and therefore a perfect way of ushering the return of his incarnation, if his incarnation is really back.   Thank you for such an enlightening explanation. 

[LosangKhyentse]

Doubt is fine. Criticism added to doubt and sarcasm to bring the point across is not.

tk

What criticism and sarcasm are you referencing?

Don't be shy, Tk, you mentioned some sarcasm, could you please point it out or else refrain from making such statements in future, please?

Please read your own threads. And see where you were sarcastic and rude. If you feel you weren't then nothing to worry about. And nothing for me to be shy about. Everything is said in the open for everyone to see and examine for themselves.


tk

[LosangKhyentse]

I look forward everyday to the return of the Dharma King. How should we all usher His return?

We usher his return by
1) keeping good samaya with our Guru and Dorje Shugden.
2) be informed about the history, lineage, benefits of Dorje Shugden and his practice so we can explain to people who are not so familiar with this issue.
3) practising harmony with people around us, as always advised by Dorje Shugden.

Dear Wisdom Being,

I really like your answer on how to usher the return of the Great King Dorje Shugden.  It is logical, do-able and perfectly Dharmic.  What a breath of fresh air after all the confrontational remarks flying around.  1 and 3 is what we all should do anyways as Dharma practitioners. 

As for 2, what better way to repay his kindness than to spread his lineage to others so that others can benefit from his practice too.  We should be doing it whether or not his incarnation is back.   The whole purpose of any enlightened being manifesting in our world is so that he can lead beings out of suffering.  Spreading his lineage is synonymous to celebrating his existence and therefore a perfect way of ushering the return of his incarnation, if his incarnation is really back.   Thank you for such an enlightening explanation. 

Wonderful open mind. Wonderful way to remain open and watch what happens in the future. If the sacred Shar Gaden monks can be open and see what will happen, it is good enough for me.

tk

[LosangKhyentse]

I am actually quite underwhelmed. What proof will we get, what if the reincarnation is a fake ?
He could then potentially destroy the lineage from within. I remain cautious.

I am happy with any Lama/Teacher who spreads Je Tsongkhapa's tradition purely but I am
quite suspicious of all these tulkus etc.. Look how many tulkus have disrobed. Yes I don't know their intentions, they might be high bodhisattvas and benefit others, but it would be nice to see some examples of realized being staying in robes too.

Vajra
 

listen to the wisdom words of Vajra....

Beware Tulkus and the Tulku system....... Beware Tulkus and the Tulku system.......Beware Tulkus and the Tulku system.......

Geshe Kelsang shows a fine example of this, having absolutely banned the promotion of tulku's within his organization, not to mention Oracles and the rest of the claptrap...

"Banned the promotion of tulku's within the organization and oracles and the REST OF THE CLAPTRAP." Very not nice of you to use such words. Very rude. Not nice. As I said before, just because Geshe-la doesn't accept in his organization, the rest of us may respect but need not follow. And other organizations around the world may follow what you labelled  'claptrap' but it doesn't mean it is not a fine example.

Tk