Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!

[wang]

This tulku was recognized decades ago. Read the write up on the homepage. That means he could of finished his studies and doing deeds now under another assumed name.

tk

'recognized decades ago'..I hope  those great lamas recognized him still be there today and can 're-confirm' about it if he goes public, otherwise it is much like tricks of those 'faked tulkus'...hey we have a lot running around already...

There are REAL Tulkus whose work in certain lifetimes cannot compare to those who are not Tulkus. Take for example, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, although not recognised a Tulku, has done much work to propagate the Dharma globally.

Some of these Tulkus, due to certain condition, may not manifest their greatness, or was stunted.

......

Let's leave this real or fake thing to those who are in authority to recognise them? We can discuss until the cows come home but are we not the authority to recognise whether he's real or fake and has no basis?

You missed my point, technically we cannot 'date-back' saying Rinpoche X, Rinpoche Y recognized him as Rinpoche Z 'decades ago', if RPC X/Y deceased already and cannot 're-confirm' this claim.  This is exactly tricks of a lot faked tulkus around us, so even if he is real, the announcement cannot be verified and be worthless..

[Vajraprotector]

I mean if Pabongkha Rinpoche was recognised and enthroned as Changkya’s incarnation when he was poor and not famous when he was in Sera initially, I am sure we will all scream “boo!”.  

As far as I know Pabongkha Rinpoche was not officially recognized as a Changkya reincarnation (ie. enthroned) even later.  Tagphu Padmavajra and some disciples recognized him as such and included that in his enumerated reincarnation lineage, but that is still not the official Changkya line.  Pabongkha's life was probably much more open, down-to-earth and fortunate not to bound down by the Changkya name and estate, although he could have been a real reincarnation.

I'm sorry, I need to differ a little from some Tibetans here.  I think it is a bit of a fault that disciples have to feel in order for their lama to be great they have to be boosted up to some high level and be recognized as the reincarnation of some very high being.  This is the same problem with the Dalai Lama, all kinds of ambiguous quotes needs to be thrown together to public justify he is the official Chenrezig.  Sorry, this is not how I understand guru devotion.

Dear Trinleykalsang,
I respect you for your Guru devotion that you do not need big titles to be impressed with your Guru, but many others do. This is the degenerate times  

Even Tantric initiations is now given in public to plant seeds for the future, what more to say about who is seriously following Asvagosha's 50 stanzas?

There are people of the modest scope, medium scope, high scope, and there are those who are no scope, 'outside the door' exploring and the only way these people can make a connection is to be blown away by big titles initially. We need to have compassion for them too. They are not so fortunate to have met Gurus and study the Dharma with pure motivation YET!

I agree with you that Pabongkha's life was probably much more open, down-to-earth and fortunate not to bound down by the Changkya name and estate. Hence, the same goes with Kyabje Dragpa Gyeltsen. At this point of time, perhaps he's doing what Kyabje Pabongkha is doing - doing work that perhaps does not 'befit' the grand title of his incarnation lineage at this point of time, but I am sure we will hear of him in the near future.

Perhaps it is also that too many death threats and murder attempts, hence his labrang and Gurus advised him to stay secret for now? You know how it is with all these ugliness, sigh...

[zamzam24388]

I couldn't believe my eyes when I read this news.  Much has been said here; as always there are 2 sides to the coin - the party that just cannot wait to meet this incarnation and the other that does not believe that this is true.  Why would the site's admin. team go through all this trouble to put up a hoax?  We should respect their view/findings and let time prove them right/wrong.

[Vajraprotector]

You missed my point, technically we cannot 'date-back' saying Rinpoche X, Rinpoche Y recognized him as Rinpoche Z 'decades ago', if RPC X/Y deceased already and cannot 're-confirm' this claim.  This is exactly tricks of a lot faked tulkus around us, so even if he is real, the announcement cannot be verified and be worthless..

What if Rinpoche X and Y are still alive and can re-confirm? This also goes back to my question below:

Since many here doubt oracles and tulku system, would you believe he’s real if he has been recognised by an oracle? For sure if Dalai Lama recognise him, some of you might say that Dalai Lama is not ‘reliable’ and might have done so for certain political reasons?
If one does not believe in alternative methods, e.g. oracles & lama with clairvoyant, there’s no way until the incarnation himself did great works to prove to the world that he is who he is, but that will perhaps take decades.

How can one EVER be sure if a Tulku is really who he is? He could be an emanation of some other Tulkus of other lineage. For example, Trijang Rinpoche was the 8th Karmapa Mikyö Dorje (1507–1554), so how can we confirm that the 8th Karmapa was Trijang Rinpoche’s incarnation and another high lama’s incarnation?

Surely in the Tulku system there is a way to recognise and confirm all these. So if we want to believe the system, we need to believe in all their methods and that they know best and are the authority in determining the incarnations.

[Vajraprotector]

This is the definitive Dorje Shugden website and what you say here is a reflection of Dorje Shugden’s lineage, and this is how you ‘welcome’ the news that an incarnation is found?! I think even if the real incarnation of Tsongkhapa is back and is on this forum, the people here will start the same argument and doubt that he’s not.

The problem here is this.  I don't know of anyone here waiting for an official Dorje Shugden incarnation.  Many accept he could appear as one of the eight guiding monks or whatever, but entitling someone as the living Dorje Shugden incarnation is probably quite different from what many were expecting.  We were taught in teachings that Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen was the final incarnation before becoming Dorje Shugden.  I am not precluding the possibility of emanations or whatever, but that is more spiritual than official.

Bitchy remarks: Erm, ever heard of re-education???

Nor am I awaiting Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation.  Listen, please, Je Tsongkhapa, for the benefit of sentient beings don't come back to this world now!  It is so degenerate and no matter how pure you are your good name and example as Lobsang Dragpa will certainly be spoiled!  It will be of much greater benefit for us to focus on you as you set an immaculate example in the 14th century rather than a form in the 21st century.

Sorry Trinleykalsang my Dharma brother, I am sure Je Rinpoche's aspiration prayers include manifesting at different times and places again and again to benefit beings, and that his worries is not about his name being spoiled.

I am sure we are not awaiting Je Tsongkhapa's reincarnation with khatas and lining the streets, but of course if more holy beings emanate and 'resurface' to strengthen weakened faith and samaya, why not?

[wang]

....

Nor am I awaiting Je Tsongkhapa reincarnation.  Listen, please, Je Tsongkhapa, for the benefit of sentient beings don't come back to this world now!  It is so degenerate ....

Dear Trinley Kalsang,

fyi, there is a lady(not a nun) self-claimed to be re-incarnation of Je Tsongkhapa, heading a large Buddhist organization(plus sangha!) in Taiwan/HK/SE Asia after the founder(Er-chang fashi) passed away.  This organization is an 'affiliate' of Gelukpa as they focus on studying Lamrim Chemo and is very influencial. In this 'degenerate age', you always get surprise:) ...

a bit out of topic, sorry..

[Vajraprotector]

I am sure Je Rinpoche's aspiration prayers include manifesting at different times and places again and again to benefit beings, and that his worries is not about his name being spoiled.

I am sure Je Rinpoche's activities pervade the 10 directions, but luckily he never established a reincarnation lineage!  We are very fortunate, otherwise we could have all of these problems like dualing reincarnations or worse!

How do we know Je Rinpoche didn't have a reincarnation lineage? Perhaps we hadn't find anything to research yet or the records have been banned and destroyed/erased/ wiped out like TDG's lineage and the Changkya lineage? Okok, I shall not agitate Trinleykalsang, hehe.

Well, I guess for now, dealing with Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen's incarnation is already one big news, we don't need another shocking news about Je Rinpoche's incarnation, which we hadn't heard of. But just for argument sake,

It has been revealed from historical sources that Dorje Shugden is the Three Bodhisattvas: Avalokiteshvara, Vajrapani and Manjushri  (read: http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts-summary.html).

Doesn’t it mean Dorje Shugden IS Je Tsongkhapa?

[Vajraprotector]

There are different views on this.  Generally if we speak of many emanations of one master that slightly goes against the yangsi system (serial rebirth) that is used to recognize official reincarnations.  In the true spiritual there are many re-emanations possible, but I've never heard of officially recognition of multiple.

I have a question. How about these examples below?

There are many examples of holy beings manifesting more than one emanation simultaneously. For instance,

- shortly before his death, the great yogi Milarepa (1040-1123) manifested various bodies in different places.

- Thangtong Gyalpo (1361- 1464) appointed his close disciple Tenzin Choje Nyingma Zangpo as his tulku, and
 
- the Sixth Dalai Lama (1683-1706) is believed to have been alive while the Seventh Dalai Lama was already occupying the throne.

- Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo (1820-92) manifested five different tulkus,

- Dudjom Rinpoche (1904-87) was born before the death of his predeccessor (Dudjom Lingpa, 1835-1904), and

- Lama Thubten Zopa Rinpoche was born two and a half months before the Lawudo Lama Kunzang Yeshe passed away.

(from pg 7, The Lawudo Lama: stories of reincarnation from the Mount Everest region By Jamyang Wangmo)

[Vajraprotector]

Doesn’t it mean Dorje Shugden IS Je Tsongkhapa?

OK, sure, but now you're discrediting your own argument.  Every alleged enlightened being is every other enlightened being!  Karmapa is Dorje Shugden!  Tulku X is Dorje Shugden!  Tulku X is Karmapa!  The Dalai Lama is Karmapa!

Then why do we have different names for these reincarnation lineages?!  Why don't we just say they are Buddha or something?

Thank you Trinleykalsang for your patience. You comments do help me contemplate more. Now, back with the debate.


I think it is important to recognise a Tulku, because a Tulku’s role:


a)  mainly serve as an exemplary figure that show continuation of a lineage from one lifetime to the next to benefit beings.


b) could also inherit their estate of their previous incarnation, which would make their work easier as it is easier for them to reconnect with their past (their monastery of studies, their lineage, their work/projects).

The tulku system makes believable the immanent reality of the cosmic bodhisattva who can control his destiny in the intermediate state (Bardo) betweem births, and who with inexpressible compassion returns to assume another mortal body and resume his holy work.
(Buddhism: The Illustrated Guide By Kevin Trainor)


c) Tulkus are important in the Tibetan monastic system

Although the tulku system has many shortcomings, it also has many advantages. In a society where proper education, even in the monasteries, was restricted to those who had sufficient means and social status, recognised tulkus were assured the thorough education and training that for an ordinary boy would be difficult to obtain.
(from pg 6, The Lawudo Lama: stories of reincarnation from the Mount Everest region By Jamyang Wangmo)


"The Tulku system, the system of successive abbots, helped to keep the Kagyu tradition alive. So we must ask why this happened. This tradition is not for just one generation but for many generations. So the abbot, the person, changed, but there was the same institution. The institution is useful for keeping the tradition alive. Instead of appointing another person, it was suppoed to be the same person in a new body. I think this system worked and helped." (a reply from the Dalai Lama)
(from pg 97, The Story of Tibet: Conversations with the Dalai Lama By Thomas Laird)


Hence, although we can say that all Tulkus as Buddhas, it is still very important to recognise who’s an incarnation of who in their previous lives, for the sake of the continuity of work that they have done previously in another lifetime. Also, it is more efficient for them to reassume their previous role, without having to 'start over'.

[WoselTenzin]

3. Oracles and tulkus may not work in Geshe-la organization and that's fine. But just because Geshe-la does not endorse them, does not mean they have no use. Zong Rinpoche and other high beings found them useful. Trijang Rinpoche blessed monks and people to become oracles. So are you saying Trijang Rinpoche was just doing cheap tricks? Since Trijang Rinpoche is Geshe Kelsang's root guru, it would be good for him not to criticize this practice as it was a practice of his own root guru. If Geshe-la doesn't like the practice, stay quiet otherwise he becomes like Dalai Lama who says Trijiang Rinpoche was sublime except when it came to Dorje Shugden. Trijang Rinpoche during his lifetime recognizes many tulkus for example the previous Dagom Rinpoche who turned out to be a gem. So was Trijang Rinpoche political in recognizing them?

I believe Geshe Kelsang Gyatso has his own reasons for not endorsing the tulku or oracle system.  We have to look at the environment he is operating in.  All Geshe-la’s students are non-Tibetans and most of them Westeners who do not have a clue or have any experience of how a tulku or an oracle system works.  However, that doesn’t mean he does not believe in it or think that these systems are nonsensical. Geshe-la is from Sera Je monastery.  He entered Sera-Je at the age of 8 as a novice monk and grew up in a monastic environment that practices these systems.  Futhermore, with Gesha-la stainless Guru Devotion, I don’t think it would ever cross his mind to think that what his guru Trijang Rinpoche practiced was wrong. 

Therefore, I think Geshe-la does not endorse these systems in the context of the western world within which his organization operates probably because there is really no support for such a system to function effectively.  Geshe-la may be qualified to recognize an incarnation but does he have a support system to follow-up on training the recognized incarnation if he has found one.  He may be qualified to know how to maintain an oracle system but would his students be able sustain it when he passes on. Furthermore, Gesha has been ex-communicated from Sera Je and ostracized by Tibetan monasteries for practicing Dorje Shugden.  His access to monastery resources on these aspects has been cut completely.   He knows for a fact that if it is going to be him alone managing these systems without any support internally and externally, it’s not going to work.   

As such, he does not support the tulku or the oracle system because he does not want to encourage it in his organization.   He does not want such systems to be subject to abuse for worldly reasons in the future especially when he is no longer around.  This is Gesha-la’s skilful means to protect the purity of these systems, I feel.  It does not mean that these systems practiced by the great lamas in the past are not valid.  It has to suit the time, place and environment.

[diamond girl]

This announcement has far reaching implications for the current world situation that many things have changed over night. As the news filters throughout the world just how much this means will come to light.

1/ Spirits do not reincarnate.
2/ Reincarnations cannot harm HHDL life.
3/ Reincarnations would not do anything to affect the cause of the Tibetan People.
4/ This incarnation is spreading Dharma just like the previous incarnations.
5/ As a reincarnation, then there is attainments to control rebirth making this not an ordinary being.
6/ The fact that after soo many years only today is the announcement released means that this incarnation is free from the politics.

This site has been created with the understanding not to promote any ill will towards the Dalai Lama, and I hope that through this announcement the TGIE and all those who are out there will stop and think.

If you were one of the people, beating shugden supporters, putting them down, ostracizing and ridiculing till such a stage as they become like refugees, for what?

The incarnation of the Protector your believe is a spirit is back.

This post is like "a slap in your face with a sweet smile"  

I often wonder how often TGIE visits this website? And who among us are them posting? I am very sure they are on line here, very very sure. I cannot help but snigger to myself, thinking of their reaction when they read the headline that the reincarnation is back and among us. They MUST have totally freaked out!!!

I wonder what they could be plotting now to "stop" this from coming true?

[Zach]

Dear friends

I have read through these numerous posts on this topic and been extremly disapointed with the amount of negativity coming forth from people, It was my thoughts that it would be benifical to maintain harmony of speech and treat people with loving kindness as we have all been advised so many times to do ! 

[honeydakini]

Keeping him secret now, let's TGIE know they have failed.

Politics

Announcing it slowly is to give hope and protect his life.

People hope the politics will end.  Dorje Shugden is good enough, yet another reincarnation will not solve the problem.

Secrecy is to protect his life. No politics from their mind or their side.

The incarnation is not meant to solve the 'problem'. Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and Now Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen didn't incarnate to solve TGIE's self made problems. He came to teach dharma and benefit many. No problems made by TGIE can be solved only forgotten in time.

TK

picking up on this point about the supposed politics inherent in making this announcement.

I find it strange that the predominant reactions to this announcement is that it is political, period. Sure, it probably will have strong repercussions on the political stage but more important than that, what I read from the announcement is a sense of hope. The announcement may shake up the TGIE, but more than that: it will also give hope to the thousands of people who have been practising quietly, secretly and fearfully. For me, certainly, it is very heart-warming to hear that he is really back and among us, and continuing his works.

Yes, the people on this forum have a very deep and sound faith in their practice but think of the many thousands out there who may not be as strong in their practice - or they may be totally alone in their practice. How alone they must feel, and possibly even begin to doubt their path. I see how this announcement can restore great faith in their hearts again, a sign that all they have believed in is really true and here among us.

I see this announcement not just as something political to attack political bodies. I rejoice in its announcement more for the strength, hope and renewed faith it can give to thousands and thousands of other people in the world - that's something to rejoice in, if nothing else.

[honeydakini]

Too Funny! I am laughing a gurggling Brook of Smiles and Grins, "that We May Pretend!"

I like this, for how many of us can say we are TRULY 100% sincere in all aspects of our practice? In doing everything out of a pure Bodhicitta motivation? In acting only and entirely for the welfare of others? If we really were that sincere, we wouldn't be hanging around here in samsara anymore, we'd be enlightened!

I say, fake it til we make it, and until then, yes, MAY WE PRETEND until it becomes real. I'd rather pretend to be happy and joyful, and hope that it will eventually become real, than to live the rest of my life being sincerely grumpy and pessimistic!

[honeydakini]

You missed my point, technically we cannot 'date-back' saying Rinpoche X, Rinpoche Y recognized him as Rinpoche Z 'decades ago', if RPC X/Y deceased already and cannot 're-confirm' this claim.  This is exactly tricks of a lot faked tulkus around us, so even if he is real, the announcement cannot be verified and be worthless..

From what I understand, when Tulkus are recognised either by Lamas or by oracles, this is not just verbal. The recognised Tulku will receive his tulku papers, which will be signed off, stamped with the official seal and dated by the Lama or even the protector, through trance in an oracle. In this case, even if the Lama has deceased, there is still an official dated, authorised document to record what he has proclaimed about the incarnation. I have seen such papers and understand that this is standard practice.