Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!

[WisdomBeing]

The advantage of the tulku system is that those who are identified as a tulku can get 'fast tracked' in their scholastic study so they can act from their full potential faster.

But is this alleged tulku still young?  If not then there's no point of assuming this title at a more advanced age, right?

I was talking about tulkus in general rather than this case - honestly, i had not thought whether this reincarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen was young or old, but whether he is young or old, he is who he is, right? In the Tibetan tradition where a spiritual lineage is important, Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen's incarnation would be quite meaningful.

Can I just clarify - are you doubting that Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen's incarnation is back or are you saying that Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen is not important so whether he is back or not is of no consequence?

[LosangKhyentse]

Keeping him secret now, let's TGIE know they have failed.

Politics

Announcing it slowly is to give hope and protect his life.

People hope the politics will end.  Dorje Shugden is good enough, yet another reincarnation will not solve the problem.

Secrecy is to protect his life. No politics from their mind or their side.

The incarnation is not meant to solve the 'problem'. Dulzin Drakpa Gyeltsen, Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and Now Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen didn't incarnate to solve TGIE's self made problems. He came to teach dharma and benefit many. No problems made by TGIE can be solved only forgotten in time.

TK

[LosangKhyentse]

Is this a mere drama enacted for the sole purpose of driving up forum usage/website ratings?!

Well, forum usage/website ratings increasing would be lovely.  Afterall, this website is and should be for everyone. The details are not reveled yet. Why the negativity?

Hey, one of the reasons I have printed out 30,000 ds brochures so far and distributing them is to bring more traffic to this website. This website should be made known to as many people as possible. Let them derive what their karma allows them to get when they log on. As much or as little benefit as their karma allows-why not?

Do as much as we can, action is important. Nothing wrong with traffic. Otherwise why have a website or forum?

TK

[LosangKhyentse]

But by announce something (in advance) that has a motive right?  You suggested to let the TGIE know they have failed, that seems political to me.

Whatever you want to think, your one person and that is fine. The side effect is TGIE will know they failed. That is not the purpose of the announcement I assume. That is their politics not our's. So yes it's politics, but not our's. When your motivation is not correct, even offering flower to Buddha can be political. So let's just watch this unfold and think the best, why worst?

tk

[DSFriend]

OK, if it is true and must remain secret why taunt the public?  Just keep it secret, right?

Does it mean then that the many secret tantric practices we know of but is kept secret because its intention is to taunt the public? I do not see it as a way to  "taunt the public"...why should it.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Dear Admin-folks (whoever you are) and dear tk, I think people are here mostly either idolaters or agnostics, concerning this issue. (Yes, I do have tongue in cheek...)

And some, like me, tried to rise the practice to the forefront. So please, all of you Guru-dance'a'rounders - if this expression is acceptable - try to understand this other position as something not opposing, but, well, just different. For some, the world changes through personal practice, and for some, well, we need a sort of Second Coming.

[LosangKhyentse]

Can I just clarify - are you doubting that Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen's incarnation is back or are you saying that Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen is not important so whether he is back or not is of no consequence?

I am not precluding Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen from having a reincarnation.  However, the circumstances seem strange:
1.  Domo Geshe Rinpoche was recognized as the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen by the previous Trijang Rinpoche.
2.  Publicly announcing there is one, but who it is can't be disclosed seems strange, why?

Body, speech, mind, activities and qualities incarnations are many. Dorje Shugden  through Dulzin Choyang Kuten (oracle) said when they approached him for the current Zong Rinpoche incarnation during the search: "Zong Rinpoche has many incarnations of body, speech, mind, etc, but we will identify the mind incarnation." For that he gave clear indications as to the parents name, regions, etc. It matched exactly with the Dalai Lama's dreams when he was approached also re Zong Rinpoche's incarnation. When they found the boy, he clearly passed the battery of tests he was subjected to and recognized by name his previous life attendants.

Hence there are many Zong Rinpoches. Just the same many Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen incarnations. Simple as that. His incarnation exists. Some are revealed, some not, some when the right time comes. But probably only one actually carrying his name, maybe, but I could be wrong. The one they are announcing could be any one of those or the actual mind incarnation. How tantalizing.

TK

[Mohani]

I find this all quite strange, but hey ho, maybe i'm quite strange..
You know, it wouldn't suprise me if it was revealed that it is Tsem!! Ta-da!!  

[iloveds]

skeptic camp rears its ugly head again - you guys are skeptics right?

You don't want to see an end to the ban, you still wish people to suffer from wanting to practice DS, you don't believe in incarnate Lama's, there is nobody who can recognise tulkus, heck even DS himself cannot recognise a incarnate Lama, the world revolves around Geshe La and what he says applies for everything in the universe.

Turing Machine operating again me'thinks. emptymountains and crazyclouds decided to let trinleykalsang have a go at programming, didn't know where the "enter" key was so he got crazycloud to put his glasses on because he sat on his on the way over to the "Lets put down TDG party" at emptymountains house. They had a few too many beers and decided to program the Turin Machine 6.0 with some cheap one liners so that they didn't have to think any deeper about the TDG announcement.

TK's 6 points sum it all up nicely.

And I love the poem it really is something to say and skillful too... perhaps the skeptic party can learn from it

Be not as Doubting Thomas!
The Story is still being told children,
Keep Quiet until it is finished

[DSFriend]

Keeping him secret now, let's TGIE know they have failed.

Politics

Announcing it slowly is to give hope and protect his life.

People hope the politics will end.  Dorje Shugden is good enough, yet another reincarnation will not solve the problem.

I do wish harm will end. Politics are nasty but it's neutral in nature and can be manipulated for the greater good. Regarding this newly made known reincarnation, we do not know his role yet. Is his role to just solve the problem (i assume you meant political)? I rather keep an open mind to the vast beneficial activities highly evolved beings can do.

[thaimonk]

1. Since no one knows where Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen is now, it is premature to say it is not true, or it's a poltical tulku, etc. You haven't seen the stone said to be a diamond yet. It could be and it could not be. So be open since you know nothing of the person nor circumstances.

When it's revealed, then cast your stones if you can at that time. If a great lama recognized this person decades ago (as it said), who are you to criticize? Why do you surpass the lamas when it comes to the Tulku and Oracle system?? You don't like it, fine. Don't criticize. It has served its purpose well among the elite greats who finds the system genuine and beneficial. Trijang Rinpoche becomes wrong when it comes to issues you don't like, nor our culture doesn't support? Because Geshe Kelsang doesn't support it, then it's wrong. Well if he's saying it's wrong, then maybe he can be wrong also? Didn't Geshe-la forbid forum use? Then are you Geshe-la's students not listening to what he says and turning things around for your advantage? (This is not meant to criticize Geshe-la or his students, it is to bring a point home please-I have nothing against Geshe-la, and at the same time, everything he believes and does I certainly do not agree with as do many people. But I am not going to come down on him because of those issues I don't agree on-everyone does the best they can. After all, Geshe-la is a normal human being with great learning and karma also. So he can make mistakes, but it does not mean he is bad, or should be disrespected in any way.-Again my apologies to say these things, I mean no offence to the great Monk Geshe Kelsang, in fact I respect greatly. ) Just because Geshe Kelsang doesn't approve or support does not mean it is wrong. Or has no purpose.

2.Who recognized this incarnation of Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen? You do not know either. Since you do not know who the lama is, be open and don't judge. What happens if the recognizing lama was the previous Zong Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, Sogpu Rinpoche or even Trijang Rinpoche themselves?

3. Oracles and tulkus may not work in Geshe-la organization and that's fine. But just because Geshe-la does not endorse them, does not mean they have no use. Zong Rinpoche and other high beings found them useful. Trijang Rinpoche blessed monks and people to become oracles. So are you saying Trijang Rinpoche was just doing cheap tricks? Since Trijang Rinpoche is Geshe Kelsang's root guru, it would be good for him not to criticize this practice as it was a practice of his own root guru. If Geshe-la doesn't like the practice, stay quiet otherwise he becomes like Dalai Lama who says Trijiang Rinpoche was sublime except when it came to Dorje Shugden. Trijang Rinpoche during his lifetime recognizes many tulkus for example the previous Dagom Rinpoche who turned out to be a gem. So was Trijang Rinpoche political in recognizing them?

4. Then don't look for the incarnations of Zemey, Trijang, Dagom, Zong, Tendar, Gonsar, Gangchen, Denma Gonsa, Drayab, Panchen, Dromo Geshe, Sogpu, Rabten, Zawa, Dakpo, Pabongka, Daknak, Yongyal Rinpoches. They and many more are tulkus and they turned out fine. More than fine. How many great Geshes with pure monkhood, great learning and practice are arising from the monasteries now? Think? It is a dangerous time. Stop the tulku system within the Gelug and 'erase' all these great names who can do so much, and there is great danger.


So what are you proposing, to not look for any of their incarnations? Not educate them and give them a chance to open the karmas from their previous incarnations? They mess up, mess up. How many ordinary Geshes and monks messed up and disrobed? Countless. Look at Geshe Thupten Jinpa married with two kids. So should we stop the Geshe system and monk ordinations because countless messed up, disrobed and not put their learning/training into use??

What about Gen Samten who was well respected monk and teacher after Geshe-la in Kadampa? He disrobed? So how? The whole system is wrong in Kadampa? How many monks/nuns have left Kadampa? Does that mean it is wrong? Of course not. So stop using negative examples to bring a tradition that worked for the most part. In samsara both ways cannot, so just accept make do. Geshe-la system doesn't fully work. It will be interesting to see what happens to Kadampa after Geshe-la passes away (forgive me for even saying that-apologies).

Don't simply put the tulkus and oracles down. The greats of our lineage that transmit the pure doctrine to us regarded the tulku system with high regard. They also talked to Dorje Shugden via the oracles thousands of times in their lifetimes. Since they are such great teachers, with great intelligence, precise logic, tremendous experience, we should respect what they respect for the most part. If we don't like, we don't have to name what they respect or recognize as hoax, or political or wrong. Then if they are wrong, why practice what they teach? Since they are right, you have beings like Geshe Kelsang existing today.

5. This issue of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and what happened to him after being strangled is a big issue on the plateau of Tibetan Buddhism for the most part. Maybe it has no followers in the greater part of the world, but if this issue is not big and shattering for those involved, why are we on this forum? Most of the 6 billion ppl on this planet don't give a hoot as to what we are debating about in this forum. So does that mean it is not important? Out of 6 billion ppl in the world only around 360 million are Buddhists. From this number, how many are Tibetan Buddhists? Again how many our Gelugs and in our lineage? Becomea small doesn't it? So what's the point?

The rarity of Lama Tzongkapa's tradition is acknowledged clearly. Numbers doesn't make it not important. If what happened to Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was not important and still holds no relevance, then we would all be good friends of Dalai Lama and even perhaps his students? Geshe Kelsang and Dalai Lama would be the best of friends, after all, isn't that what Great Geshes like themselves should be-forgiving, loving, humble and accepting and loving all sentient beings? NOT 'against' each other and having protests against the other? Is that monkly? Samsara has never been perfect. Why look for something that has never existed? View of how you want to be although we are stuck in dualism, lack of merit and zero attainments?

6. There's nothing political about Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen not being able to be silenced. Silenced in this case means to let people think he was evil or became a spirit or not fit to teach. He is back which means those who WERE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED IN KILLING HIM WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL! HE HAS BEEN BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN AND NOW AGAIN and unfortunately all the energy TGIE spent on erasing him did not work.

Be gentle. Don't criticize. Watch. Observe. Reserve judgement till you know the FULL DETAILS OF THIS KYABJE DRAKPA GYELTSEN. He could surprise you and turn out great. If he doesn't then you can open up the 'I hate tulkus, banish tulku system' protests/writings/plarcards/opinions again. For now watch. Observe. Be wise and reserve pre-judgement from one announcement on this website and you know nothing of the intimate details yet.

TK

what a brilliant argument TK... some people here are just plain jealous, simple virtue like "rejoice" also they do not possess, they are the real political ones...

[LosangKhyentse]

Dear Admin-folks (whoever you are) and dear tk, I think people are here mostly either idolaters or agnostics, concerning this issue. (Yes, I do have tongue in cheek...)

And some, like me, tried to rise the practice to the forefront. So please, all of you Guru-dance'a'rounders - if this expression is acceptable - try to understand this other position as something not opposing, but, well, just different. For some, the world changes through personal practice, and for some, well, we need a sort of Second Coming.

I dont need a second coming. But it's coming. You judge everything from a judeo christian mono theistic background. I can't blame you. But not everything revolves around your upbringing. Tibet, it's traditions, Buddhism is worlds apart from what you know, what you are use to, and what you see as acceptable. You can just practice and become a Buddha. You don't have to dance around a guru, and neither do we, but if a incarnation is coming, why not.

My views and beliefs are different than your's but I don't appreciate being labelled a Guru-dance'a'rounder because they are different than your's. Please refrain from the name calling. The world indeed changes with practice. So change your world.

TK

[LosangKhyentse]

There are different views on this.  Generally if we speak of many emanations of one master that slightly goes against the yangsi system (serial rebirth) that is used to recognize official reincarnations.  In the true spiritual there are many re-emanations possible, but I've never heard of officially recognition of multiple.

I have heard of official recognitions of multiples. Kyabje Rongtha Gyabgon Rinpoche of Sera Je. There are two of them and they are brothers. They have the exact name. I met the one in Delhi and had very accurate divinations done. FPMT
Delhi branch centre use to INVITE HIM TO DO DORJE SHUGDEN PUJAS FOR THEIR CENTRE BACK IN THE LATE 80'S BOTH HE AND THEY TOLD ME.

Both Rongthas have passed and one lived in Delhi and the other in Tibet.

TK

[vajralight]

Dear all,

no disrespect meant. I am cautious because I believe there have been numerous occasions where the wrong incarnation was "found" and where that person has been used for political motivations. I also think that many incarnations have rightly been recognized by highly realised Masters, but if we look today to the situation in the Buddhist world, many are under the influence of the DL and TGIE or afraid to go againste the wishes of the DL or TGIE. (Maybe for good reasons, they may have family in refugee camps etc..)

It looks as if the tulku system has been and is used for more than spiritual purposes. (See all the western tulkus, and many Tibetans, they have all disrobed ! Traditions have been split (Kagyu))

I am very grateful for the admin to give us so much useful information but I disagree that my faith in Dorje Shugden depends on me believing/accepting without proof that Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is back.

For me his return will only have meaning if he manifest the aspects of a true follower of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition.
And if he can help people of this world by spreading Buddhadharma far and wide ofcourse I will rejoice and honour him. But I also rejoice in anyone who does this, tulku or not.

Vajra

[DSFriend]

Dear all

PLEASE NO CALLING NAMES. BE RESPECTFUL OF EACH OTHER.

Thank you
DSFriend