Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!

[dsnowlion]

We do not need cliche and clubs or gangs on this site.

Now as my Ma used to say, ' If you cannot say something nice. Do not say anything at all".
So let's try that for awhile instead of this clammoring that is nonsense defense that is bending my mind and messing with my wa.

Okay?[/b]

EXACTLY MY POINT! NO Clubs or Cliche required so please let's not make one. And if there is any to be made, it should be to Lord Dorje Shugden.

No one is ASSERTING anything. But it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure where all the skeptical and doubting minds are coming from. Or perhaps I am reading it wrong too? If so then I apologies.

[DSFriend]

"

Now as my Ma used to say, ' If you cannot say something nice. Do not say anything at all".
So let's try that for awhile instead. Okay?

Dear Protectors Champion. I truly appreciate your effort and I must say, you are very creative to be conveying the same message but string together differently!

cheers
DSFriend

[thaimonk]

Original quote from Protectors Champion (which just disappeared)

"Are you jealous that everyone congregates here for the best Dorje Shugden information and are you sour no one will go to dulzin.com??? And anyway there is nobody home over there. I remembered like about a week back some of u wanted to copy all the info on this forum and transfer on to your new site... some more have the cheek to ask the webmaster... how cold, uncaring, and unethical is that?  And if you have so much doubt and so critical of the info this website puts up, then why do you want to copy the info."

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Dear Protectors Champion,

What you wrote is direct, sharp and very to the point. But I just couldn't not stop laughing at the style of your writing. You are one super witty person.

I like your posts. Keep it up and I look forward to your future posts.

Yes, I'm loyal to this site like you.

thaimonk

[thaimonk]

OK, I am noticing a partisan divide here.

No partisanship here. Just pure appreciation of some people.

[DSFriend]

1. Since no one knows where Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen is now, it is premature to say it is not true, or it's a poltical tulku, etc. You haven't seen the stone said to be a diamond yet. It could be and it could not be. So be open since you know nothing of the person nor circumstances.

When it's revealed, then cast your stones if you can at that time. If a great lama recognized this person decades ago (as it said), who are you to criticize? Why do you surpass the lamas when it comes to the Tulku and Oracle system?? You don't like it, fine. Don't criticize. It has served its purpose well among the elite greats who finds the system genuine and beneficial. Trijang Rinpoche becomes wrong when it comes to issues you don't like, nor our culture doesn't support? Because Geshe Kelsang doesn't support it, then it's wrong. Well if he's saying it's wrong, then maybe he can be wrong also? Didn't Geshe-la forbid forum use? Then are you Geshe-la's students not listening to what he says and turning things around for your advantage? (This is not meant to criticize Geshe-la or his students, it is to bring a point home please-I have nothing against Geshe-la, and at the same time, everything he believes and does I certainly do not agree with as do many people. But I am not going to come down on him because of those issues I don't agree on-everyone does the best they can. After all, Geshe-la is a normal human being with great learning and karma also. So he can make mistakes, but it does not mean he is bad, or should be disrespected in any way.-Again my apologies to say these things, I mean no offence to the great Monk Geshe Kelsang, in fact I respect greatly. ) Just because Geshe Kelsang doesn't approve or support does not mean it is wrong. Or has no purpose.

2.Who recognized this incarnation of Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen? You do not know either. Since you do not know who the lama is, be open and don't judge. What happens if the recognizing lama was the previous Zong Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, Sogpu Rinpoche or even Trijang Rinpoche themselves?

3. Oracles and tulkus may not work in Geshe-la organization and that's fine. But just because Geshe-la does not endorse them, does not mean they have no use. Zong Rinpoche and other high beings found them useful. Trijang Rinpoche blessed monks and people to become oracles. So are you saying Trijang Rinpoche was just doing cheap tricks? Since Trijang Rinpoche is Geshe Kelsang's root guru, it would be good for him not to criticize this practice as it was a practice of his own root guru. If Geshe-la doesn't like the practice, stay quiet otherwise he becomes like Dalai Lama who says Trijiang Rinpoche was sublime except when it came to Dorje Shugden. Trijang Rinpoche during his lifetime recognizes many tulkus for example the previous Dagom Rinpoche who turned out to be a gem. So was Trijang Rinpoche political in recognizing them?

4. Then don't look for the incarnations of Zemey, Trijang, Dagom, Zong, Tendar, Gonsar, Gangchen, Denma Gonsa, Drayab, Panchen, Dromo Geshe, Sogpu, Rabten, Zawa, Dakpo, Pabongka, Daknak, Yongyal Rinpoches. They and many more are tulkus and they turned out fine. More than fine. How many great Geshes with pure monkhood, great learning and practice are arising from the monasteries now? Think? It is a dangerous time. Stop the tulku system within the Gelug and 'erase' all these great names who can do so much, and there is great danger.


So what are you proposing, to not look for any of their incarnations? Not educate them and give them a chance to open the karmas from their previous incarnations? They mess up, mess up. How many ordinary Geshes and monks messed up and disrobed? Countless. Look at Geshe Thupten Jinpa married with two kids. So should we stop the Geshe system and monk ordinations because countless messed up, disrobed and not put their learning/training into use??

What about Gen Samten who was well respected monk and teacher after Geshe-la in Kadampa? He disrobed? So how? The whole system is wrong in Kadampa? How many monks/nuns have left Kadampa? Does that mean it is wrong? Of course not. So stop using negative examples to bring a tradition that worked for the most part. In samsara both ways cannot, so just accept make do. Geshe-la system doesn't fully work. It will be interesting to see what happens to Kadampa after Geshe-la passes away (forgive me for even saying that-apologies).

Don't simply put the tulkus and oracles down. The greats of our lineage that transmit the pure doctrine to us regarded the tulku system with high regard. They also talked to Dorje Shugden via the oracles thousands of times in their lifetimes. Since they are such great teachers, with great intelligence, precise logic, tremendous experience, we should respect what they respect for the most part. If we don't like, we don't have to name what they respect or recognize as hoax, or political or wrong. Then if they are wrong, why practice what they teach? Since they are right, you have beings like Geshe Kelsang existing today.

5. This issue of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and what happened to him after being strangled is a big issue on the plateau of Tibetan Buddhism for the most part. Maybe it has no followers in the greater part of the world, but if this issue is not big and shattering for those involved, why are we on this forum? Most of the 6 billion ppl on this planet don't give a hoot as to what we are debating about in this forum. So does that mean it is not important? Out of 6 billion ppl in the world only around 360 million are Buddhists. From this number, how many are Tibetan Buddhists? Again how many our Gelugs and in our lineage? Becomea small doesn't it? So what's the point?

The rarity of Lama Tzongkapa's tradition is acknowledged clearly. Numbers doesn't make it not important. If what happened to Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was not important and still holds no relevance, then we would all be good friends of Dalai Lama and even perhaps his students? Geshe Kelsang and Dalai Lama would be the best of friends, after all, isn't that what Great Geshes like themselves should be-forgiving, loving, humble and accepting and loving all sentient beings? NOT 'against' each other and having protests against the other? Is that monkly? Samsara has never been perfect. Why look for something that has never existed? View of how you want to be although we are stuck in dualism, lack of merit and zero attainments?

6. There's nothing political about Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen not being able to be silenced. Silenced in this case means to let people think he was evil or became a spirit or not fit to teach. He is back which means those who WERE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED IN KILLING HIM WAS NOT SUCCESSFUL! HE HAS BEEN BACK AGAIN AND AGAIN AND NOW AGAIN and unfortunately all the energy TGIE spent on erasing him did not work.

Be gentle. Don't criticize. Watch. Observe. Reserve judgement till you know the FULL DETAILS OF THIS KYABJE DRAKPA GYELTSEN. He could surprise you and turn out great. If he doesn't then you can open up the 'I hate tulkus, banish tulku system' protests/writings/plarcards/opinions again. For now watch. Observe. Be wise and reserve pre-judgement from one announcement on this website and you know nothing of the intimate details yet.

TK

Dear TK

Your logic is clear, unbiased, invoking in us to each check our own fundamental faith and devotion in the lineage masters..calling for us to be open and not judge. There's going to be many types of reaction to this news. Interesting.

best wishes
DSFiend

[thor]

Geshe-la, Gangchen Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche have all received death threats. Whomever named in the context of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's reincarnation will receive the unwanted attentions of TGIE or fanatical Dalai Lama supporters. There is no need for a 2nd murder in this lineage. Let us not name names.

[thor]

Three Days Pretending We Are A Forum Of Buddhist Practioners,
Practicing Exactly As Lord Buddha Taught Us to Behave

 

[triesa]

Dear all who have commented,

I have read through all the posts, and thank you for all the inputs. Obviously and clearly there are two different sides on the forum, one rejoicing at the announcement and one being skeptical.

Since we are here at the forum, it means:
1) We all care about the suppression of TGIE on many Shugden practitioners and on the lineage lamas who openedly practising Dorje Shugden
2) We want to promote Dorje Shugden to the world and let more people benefit form this practice
3) As sincere Dorje Shugden practitioners, we should be mindful of our speech all the time
3) As sincere Dorje Shugden practitioers , we should always respect each other and each other's guru

On a personal note, I agree the 6 points summed up by TK on the whole issue about the announcement. Let's maintain an open mind for now and if the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen has indeed returned long ago, the truth will speak for itself when the time is come. We should always have a heart to rejoice for such great being coming back again and again to propagate the pure lineage of Lama Tsongkhapa, because his great deeds will speaker louder than all our words.

Humbly,
Triesa

[Vajraprotector]

This is new to me, despite all my research I have never seen a Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen reincarnation mentioned.  In fact the Shugden historical accounts have used the lack of a reincarnation as a form of justification, that's how the 19th century author Tsunpa Mati justifies Dorje Shugden as being the reincarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, which is quoted by Pabongkha Rinpoche. 

There was a Zhide Nyungne Lama reincarnation that is said to be an emanation of Panchen Sonam Dragpa, but one of the later supposed reincarnations fell into disrepute when he and the Reting Rinpoche tried assassinating Taktra Rinpoche.

Technically there are many emanations possible, but as far as official recognitions go this is as much as I know, not to mention it is unclear if the Zhide Nyungne Lama reincarnation line was broken or not.

For the lack of zest and excitement of some people on this forum in the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen, do you think TGIE and Dalai Lama who are on the 'other side' of the controversy would give him official recognition?

Since many here doubt oracles and tulku system, would you believe he’s real if he has been recognised by an oracle? For sure if Dalai Lama recognise him, some of you might say that Dalai Lama is not ‘reliable’ and might have done so for certain political reasons?

And if you believe Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is in the same mindstream as Dorje Shugden, I thought Sachen Kunga Lodro, a great leader of the Sakya tradition and the 31st Sakya Throneholder, was believed to have been an incarnation of Dorje Shugden?

Mahasiddha Pema Dudul says, “These days times are so degenerate no-one else is coming, but now Grandpa Shugden himself will definitely come as your son!”

Research is based on what is published or in written records (which could have been destroyed on purpose), and if the incarnation was banned, how can one find resources to prove this? If one does not believe in alternative methods, e.g. oracles & lama with clairvoyant, there’s no way until the incarnation himself did great works to prove to the world that he is who he is, but that will perhaps take decades.

[Vajraprotector]

This will be marked by the birth of Dorje Shugden as the definitive deity in Buddhism and the world. I'm gonna be part of this!

What a thouroughly unpleasant and unrealistic idea!

I am very disturbed by the responses of people who are in the ‘forefront’ of dorje shugden practice (I shall not put in names, but you know who you are).

The cards are not all laid out on the table yet and I don’t think we can speculate any of its social effects in the future, BUT the fact that the incarnation of Tulku Dragpa Gyeltsen is back, shouldn’t we rejoice and think about how to support this Tulku? Or perhaps uphold the ‘fort’ well until he returns to turn the wheel of Dharma?

Sometimes I am very disheartened by the pessimistic or cynic comments that criticize everything that is good that arise from this forum. I am sure the website team has worked very hard and spent a lot of time and effort and money to get correct and valuable information, namely from Shar Gaden, news from various great masters (eg Gaden Tripa switch camp), and now this great news. What have we contributed to support this website and the Shugden community who are quietly reading the posts ?

This is the definitive Dorje Shugden website and what you say here is a reflection of Dorje Shugden’s lineage, and this is how you ‘welcome’ the news that an incarnation is found?! I think even if the real incarnation of Tsongkhapa is back and is on this forum, the people here will start the same argument and doubt that he’s not.

I am sorry to say, if you have so much doubt in the Tulku system and critical of oracles etc, please, even your Guru’s guru (or somewhere in the lineage Gurus) relied on Tulku system and oracles.  Like what TK said, the Tulku system has been useful in the past till now, so let it play its role.

If I am not mistaken, In 1988 and 1990 the uncle of Geshe Kelsang, Ven. Choyang Duldzin Kuten Lama - the oracle of Dorje Shugden - also visited Manjushri Institute. If Geshe-la thought that the Tulku system and oracles play no role, he would have advised Kuten Lama to stop and perhaps assist his work in Kadampa?
It is great that Geshe Kelsang Gyatso banned the promotion of tulku's within his organization, so that his lineage and students survived based on pure studies, and hence perhaps creating a new geshe/ monastic system in the west, but doesn’t mean all others are not good.  Don’t use your organisation’s rule to ‘outcast’ others please.

Then we might as well just say Dalai Lama advised us to ban Shugden practice, so should we all pack up our statues and burn our prayer books?

[Vajraprotector]

Also in the Dorje Shugden Be Bum there is a 100 year old supplication to various incarnations written by Vajra Shugden (Shugden oracle) that enumerates what appears to be some Kumbum Jampa Ling abbots as emanations.  Yet they didn't assume the official title of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen reincarnations. 

Perhaps it was not beneficial to officially recognise the abbot as an incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen? There are many incarnations out there that are not recognised as the official one, doesn't mean they are not who they are. Also, I know that sometimes only the mind incarnation is officially recognised, not all the incarnation.

[wang]

This tulku was recognized decades ago. Read the write up on the homepage. That means he could of finished his studies and doing deeds now under another assumed name.

tk

'recognized decades ago'..I hope  those great lamas recognized him still be there today and can 're-confirm' about it if he goes public, otherwise it is much like tricks of those 'faked tulkus'...hey we have a lot running around already...

[Vajraprotector]

The concern for me is who is driving this along.  If someone is eager to assume the title that is not very good.  If there is no clout to back up the recognitions those are the conditions one should take into account, just let it pass by and avoid controversy.  It's looking like there is no authoritative clout left in Tibetan Buddhism to unambiguously back up recognitions (publicly at least), so instead of pulling the cloth from both and ends ripping it, just let go of the cloth (remember the dreams of King Titi in Buddha's time). 

Especially in this case, there hasn't been an official line of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen incarnations for 300 years.  Even if one has been recognized as a Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen emanation, such as in supplications or posterior reincarnation enumerations, I don't think that entitles a person to say they are the Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen reincarnation.  It looks especially suspicious that after one of the biggest controversies in 300 years, now suddenly there is a Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen incarnation.

Dear TrinleyKalsang,
I thank you for voicing your concern and I respect you very much for your research work that helped to clear the name of Dorje Shugden very much.

I think since we are at no authority to recognise any incarnation, perhaps let’s just leave it to the oracles, the lamas, the ‘system’ to do their job and I am sure Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen’s emanation will not be announced in a ‘hurry’ for political reason –it would have been announced publicly if it were. It is merely to let those with weak faith that Dorje Shugden is not a spirit and those who hold on with faith will have the great fortune to witness the official recognition of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen's incarnation.

I am sure Kyabje Dragpa Gyeltsen is still awaiting opportunity when it’s most beneficial and when a great work to promote the lineage has been accomplished, then he will arise as Kyabje Dragpa Gyeltsen.

I mean if Pabongkha Rinpoche was recognised and enthroned as Changkya’s incarnation when he was poor and not famous when he was in Sera initially, I am sure we will all scream “boo!”.  But I'm certain our reaction is different, if at the time that Pabongkha Rinpoche had gathered many students and had mastered and all the important lineages of sutra and tantra and passing them on to most of the important Gelug lamas, then we will clap and scream that he is the unmistaken incarnation of Changkya.

So, I guess until then, we just have to quietly rejoice and play our part ? 

[Vajraprotector]

This tulku was recognized decades ago. Read the write up on the homepage. That means he could of finished his studies and doing deeds now under another assumed name.

tk

'recognized decades ago'..I hope  those great lamas recognized him still be there today and can 're-confirm' about it if he goes public, otherwise it is much like tricks of those 'faked tulkus'...hey we have a lot running around already...

There are REAL Tulkus whose work in certain lifetimes cannot compare to those who are not Tulkus. Take for example, Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, although not recognised a Tulku, has done much work to propagate the Dharma globally.

Some of these Tulkus, due to certain condition, may not manifest their greatness, or was stunted.

Hence, Tulku is just a "pre-requisite" for them to continue their previously lives' work, but if they do not achieve great results (with the burden of the title "Tulku"), then even if they are real, they will not be respected.

My personal view is, if they are fake Tulkus but are doing great work to benefit the world, I support them, but if they are real Tulkus and sit around and do nothing, they are still who they 'were', but just decided to fulfill some other missions in their lineage that are equally important but not as glorious?

Let's leave this real or fake thing to those who are in authority to recognise them? We can discuss until the cows come home but are we not the authority to recognise whether he's real or fake and has no basis?

[Vajraprotector]

My personal view is, if they are fake Tulkus but are doing great work to benefit the world, I support them

I would put the onus of conscience on them.  In particular the Bodhisattva Vows mentions not to make claims of attainments one does not have, etc.  In other words, they shouldn't claim to be something they are not.

I think fake Tulkus, if they can go to the extent of faking the titles to get students/ sponsorships or names, may not be holder of Bodhisattva Vows and couldn't care less if they break them?