Gosh - this news about a recognised incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen has certainly created a stir, but not where i thought it would be. I had thought that the anti-shugden camp would have been stirred up but instead it's the Shugden practitioners - at least the people on this website anyway.
Like what Protector's Champion says - why not wait til we see who this incarnation is before we judge?
Why are some people so negative? Whatever news we receive, we can either take it on a neutral, negative or positive way. Some people in this forum, like me, are happy about the news. Even if you don't really like the news, do you need to put it down, especially as some of you have said that there is not enough information for you to judge? Why do you look down on the people who have taken the news at face value and are happy with the news?
Yes of course the possibility that this tulku is fake. But there is the possibility that he is for REAL.
We don't know yet until more is revealed later. Although this website has enough credibility for me that if it puts up a notice like that, it is staking its very reputation on the line so it must really know what it is talking about.
In the meantime, we can bitch about it or we can rejoice. Isn't rejoicing for others part of Buddhism?
Re the sarcastic members. Really. if our attitude is irritating others, isn't it more Buddhist to temper ourselves?
Isn't being Buddhist about benefiting others, and if our speech is hurting others, shouldn't we think about how we can improve to minimise hurt to others, or is our ego more important?
I used to think i'm like this, take it or leave it, until i met Buddhism, which tells me that i
can change and i
should change especially if im pissing people off
I know that we are all very passionate about our Protector, but do take a step back and contemplate our reactions.
Crazy cloud says that the tulku tradition is dangerous. On a very mundane level, so is driving a car. Some people crash. Some people kill others while driving. Do we ban cars because there are a few harmful cases?
I like the tulku tradition very much. It allows high incarnations to be recognised at a young age and for them to be groomed to reach their potential.
Re dubious identifications - i think Steven Seagal was mentioned. You know what, i am a bit dubious too BUT i'd rather keep my own counsel on that because what the hell do i know? Am i an attained being who can judge if he is or isn't a tulku? Tulkus manifest in many forms to benefit others. Dorje Shugden's previous incarnation as the Mahasiddha Birwapa didn't outwardly immediately appear to benefit people but he was a superior being.
If the tulku comes and you don't like him, you don't have to follow him?
I believe that we are advised to check out a Guru before we take refuge in him or receive teachings from him. If we are not going to take refuge in him or receive teachings, then there is no need to check him out? I can't check out the many Lamas out there, but i would rely on my guru to advise whether this Lama is real or not. For example like i have mentioned before, HE Gangchen Rinpoche has accepted the Panchen Lama in China. Because i have faith in Gangchen Rinpoche, I will accept too.
Some of you have said that if this incarnation was accepted by a high Lama like Trijang Rinpoche or Zong Rinpoche, you would be able to accept him too. It's a pity that these old Lamas' previous incarnations have passed into clear light. So would you accept an oracular pronunciation? Or you have problems with the oracle too?
Anyway, yes this is an open forum, and we can all speak our minds, but again, it's HOW we say it. Do we speak from ego - wanting to put people down and wanting to be right? Or we speak to share and discuss? We all are free to share our point of view.
My point of view re the 4 items Lone Ranger proposed should be removed is that they should stay. I love the oracle videos. I love the brochures. I LOVE the news about the incarnation of Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen! I love the wrathful pictures of Dorje Shugden!
My biggest concern is that people are watching - not the TGIE, but new people who are curious about Dorje Shugden and they come to this website and they see this bickering. i've been telling my friends to come to dorjeshugden.com - and at least one person from facebook in the last 24 hours have said that she will come and visit this website because she wants to know who Dorje Shugden is. What kind of impression will she get? Will she be the same as Namdrol and leave? Some of you might say - too bad for her, but what created the causes for her to leave. Did we play a part in it. Would Dorje Shugden approve of our actions? Would our Guru approve of our actions?
TK speaks always with authority and sense.. i especially like his post below.. i wanted to extract a quote from the post but i like the whole thing so much i just had to include it all.. Perhaps the admin might want to consider posting this up on the website somewhere because it's very useful info... thank you
1. Of course the 'oracle-things' can be explained. If this cannot be explained, the only conclusion IS NOT "THAT IT IS A CULTURAL THING OF TIBETANS and HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DHARMA".
TRIJANG RINPOCHE AND ZONG RINPOCHE CONSULTED ORACLES ALWAYS AND EVERYTHING THEY DID WAS DHARMA FROM BEGINNING TO END. EVEN BREATHING FOR THEM WAS DHARMA. SO IF YOU DOUBT THAT, YOU HAVE TO DOUBT OUR WHOLE LINEAGE. Do you think Trijang/Zong Rinpoche will engage in activities that have no meaning and no relations to dharma? I DON'T THINK SO EVER. NO DEBATE.
It is your particular like and dislike due to ignorance perhaps that you have distorted thinking of certain very beneficial practices such as oracles or oracular practices. The oracles can be very useful.
Western society relied on oracles and the like before the advent of Christianity. With Christianity, many practices such as the arts of divining, tarot cards, taking trances, reading the future, ouija boards all became labelled as evil and should be violently stopped. Violent and aggressive campaigns were set throughout Europe and the Americas to abolish these practices. We are the modern day results of that destruction in excluding anything labelled magical. Hence things like oracles are seen as superstitious, or invalid. That is the legacy of the advent of Christianity.
The Delphic oracles with their famous Pythias were sought over the ancient world for their very clear prophecies for hundred of years. Destroyed by Alexander so he can be assured no one else will know what was told to him. How selfish. In order to assure his victory.
2. It would take many pages and hours to type out what I have learned at the feets of 8 eminent lamas for the last decades to explain. I will condense very short. If you understand, fine. If you don't it's obvious then why you're 'against' it.
3. I would recommend to you to read 'Wheel of Protection' from 'Exile From the Land of Snows' to get an overview of how oracles work. Dorje Shugden and Nechung oracles operate somewhat differently, but generally same. Please do your homework, read, research, contemplate then speak to elucidate to others to clear their misunderstandings and ignorance. After all dharma is the highest form of giving. Before giving go get it.
See Here. Please read thoroughly: http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1332
4. Simple story: When I was in Dharamsala 14 years back, an American backpacker lady fell off the hills there and was lost for around two days. Her friends, local police, and some Tibetans scoured lower upper dharamsala for her. Could not be found. I went to see the Yudroma oracle for my personal reasons as were a few other people for their questions also. At that time, another group had consulted her out of desperation. The American friends were very desperate. The lady oracle went into trance with the help of the monk from Gyuto Tantric College as Gyuto Tantric College often consult her( Yudroma is their protective deity). Yes the renowned Gelug Tantric college goes to her to consult often. When Yudroma entered the oracle ( i witnessed several times), she gave the location, place and fall clearly. She also said the lady is still alive but must get to her quickly. Within another half a day, following her instructions they found the backpacker who had broken a leg ( maybe wrist) and was stuck in a precarious location. The Americans were dumbfounded.
That was one of my first personal experiences with a recognized oracle with many more to come. Observed I did and convinced I am today.
5. Our bodies are just a shell in which our sublte consciousness temporarily abides. You can leave it and enter at will if you have practiced correctly. Ra Lotsawa and son were well known for that. Hence, since it is a shell, any beings can enter and abide including yourself. Thererfore possessions of the evil nature is definitely possible as the Vajra Yogini Kakkoo (ritual) text is a remedy for that. Possessions, ghosts, spirits, psychics, clairvoyants do exist previously and currently. The stories abound in the bios of Heruka lineage Mahasiddhas.
We can temporarily abide elsewhere or within an object and let a higher force use our bodies to speak, express, move or do whatever actions that are necessary. Hence Dorje Shugden and Kache Marpo can definitely enter such a 'ready' body. When we do the invitations for example in Lama Chopa and ask the deities to abide, it can be inviting them to enter a statue or thangka we are consecrating. They abide at our request to become a merit field not that they have nowhere to go.
Hence if they can enter a statue and abide, why not a human? Both are made of the four physical composite elements suitable for a consciousness to abide in. Of course there's the formless also, but need not apply here for now.
In the Tara ritual, you ask Tara to come forth, abide in her image. Then we make offerings, requests, mantras, prayers, etc and at the end, you ask her to remain in this image by scattering dried rice/flowers with appropriate recitation. Then she abides. When you invite Dorje Shugden to enter an oracle, you recite the invitational liturgy at the beginning of our Dorje Shugden Kangsol. If you wish the peaceful to come, the oracle will wear monk robes, yellow chogo/Namjar, and Pandit's hat. Then Dorje Shugden will enter in a peaceful form to talk, known as Dulzin. If wrathful is required, then oracle will wear the full robes with flags, boots, weapons, etc. This energy cannot stay long, or talk much as it is in fierce form. Old oracles in their 70's who limp or are on walking sticks when taking trance of the wrathful form, can leap, bend swords, 'dance' and whole body convulses with the energy of the deity-Shugden. That is amazing, what is more is, someone like Kuten Lama (Geshe-la's uncle) never studied much, but in trance as Dulzin he can give long (2-3 hours) discourses citing perfectly from Panchen Sonam Drakpa, Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, Dharmakirti, etc's texts and give you page numbers and cross reference points. He can give oral transmissions, initiations, compose texts on the spot as I have witnessed. He is elucidating among scholars, high incarnates such as Zong Rinpoche, Zemey Rinpoche, Dagom Rinpoche, the abbots, Geshes etc. He can refute with them or even debate if the occasion calls for it. Out of trance, Kuten Lama is a nice old man whose knowledge of dharma is that of little higher than the typical Tibetan laity. Certainly he couldn't fool the masters in Gaden for 30 years.
He must have gone into trance thousands of times since Buxa when he was officially approved as genuine by H.H. Trijang Dorje Chang. Leaping around and bending swords is neat, but lesser spirits can also do the same. What is amazing and convincing is what comes out of the mouth of the oracle time and time tested again. Even things you asked Dorje Shugden through another oracle ten years back, when taking trance of a 'new' oracle he can recount and remind you. It has happened to me. I consulted Shugden through Sera's oracle, then much later the Gaden oracle. While in trance Dorje Shugden reminded me of what he said precisely and accurately what he told me ten years back through a completely different person, different setting, different translators, different monastery. Mind you, what he told me was very intimate and very applicable to me. He has even indicated clearly to me what my gurus have told me in private- he reminded me of their vajra commands. This happened to me. I do not need you or anyone else's confirmation as the advice was timely, very helpful and I saw the results. His advices and dharma talks will blow your mind. You feel you are in the presence of someone very old, grand and from another time. But then that cannot be used here, as that is subjective-my feelings of him that it.
6. Lama Tsongkapa's Guru Yoga practice and Guru Rinpoche's practice are not in the sutras or tantras from India. They were not taught in Pre-Tibet-Buddhist India. Due to the many enlightened activities of enlightened beings after the Buddha, of course that is possible. Buddha Shakyamuni cannot be the only enlightened one, otherwise the dharma is false. But by seeing the many attainments gained by many practitioners over 600 hundred years, we know Guru Yoga of Tsongkapa is valid. The close lineage of the Mahamudra instructions that are practiced by Tsongkapa's disciples are also not the sutras and tantras of Buddha Shakyamuni/Vajradhara. Nyingmas rely heavily on Secret treasure texts or Termas never spoken about and guru Rinpoche's mantra is nowhere to be found in the original sutras and tantras yet has created many realized beings within the Nyingma, Kagyu and Sakyas.
Yet Guru Rinpoche's initiation, practices, rites, rituals, images form the central core of the Nyingma lineage. Tsongkapa's Guru Yoga practice was revealed by Manjushri directly to Tsongkapa. Hence if something is not in the sutras do not disqualify their authenticity nor benefits. In this case the qualifications of the author is very important.
Thai Buddhists do not recognize Yamantaka, Heruka nor Vajra Yogini. They do not have the lineage nor believe that it originated from the perfect Buddha. Not finding something somewhere can lead to endless unnecessary debates. Hence, for us the author is very important. Dorje Shugden is not mentioned in the sutras. Dakpo Rinpoche named the 'village lama' by the 13th Dalai Lama 'left' his body and transported to Tushita to receive the practice of Dorje Shugden. So today if someone was to say that was their soure of teachings, this forum would be alive with snide sarcastic posts. So why is it we can believe Dakpo Rinpoche. Just because it happened 50, 100, 200 or whatever years ago? If we don't believe him, then our whole Dorje Shugden lineage is a lie. Then why are we even here. The origins of our Dorje Shugden practice, Heruka, Vajra Yogini, etc are all from 'magical' beginnings. Yet we believe and trust. Why not oracles? Why not Shugden entering a qualified oracle consecrated and authenticized by HH kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang the heart son of Pabongka who in turn is the heart son of Dakpo Rinpoche? Contemplate.
Not everything has to be in the sutras yet we still need a lineage no matter how magical it's origins. Western culture claims to not accept anything magical but more practical. Hogwash. Much of western religions and our Buddhism is awash with 'magical, mystical and obscure' beginnings yet we still practice and proclaim logic. Logic by us is very limited. We cannot take full refuge in our logic after certain point.
Heruka revealed his tantra by teaching on Mt Kailash to Vajra Yogini then to human first. How to verify that? Yet many have received attainments from Her practice. So we need to see results to ascertain validity of origins in this case. Many have received benefits from Dorje Shugden's oracles for the last 350 years including myself many times over.
How many scholars and masters rely on Asanga's 'Ornament of Clear Realizations' given to him by Maitreya Buddha in Tushita. Doesn't that sound wierd in today's terms? How about if I wrote a text and told you Tara told me the contents. It would be psychiatric time. Well why do we accept Asanga's assertions coming from such a source? Because we rely on the author and mostly the benefits in this case. Nagarjuna retrieved how many wisdom texts from the Nagas hidden away? Show me a naga. Have you seen one? Hence validity in Tibetan Buddhism is not stemmed only from the original sutras alone. There will be more teachings arising in the future logically speaking to suit the various aptitudes. Lam Rim made it's first appearance by Atisha's composition. Before that it was unheard of. Yet it is our core practice now having been passed down and further versions written of course the latest by Pabongka. Oracular practices do not need to be in the original sutras/tantras to validate their authenticity and applicability for dharma practitioners of this age, time and circumstances.
I hope this sincerely help you. I have spent over 6 solid hours writing the various explanations on this thread. I didn't write to convince you but to open your mind to things that perhaps are very foreign and at first unacceptable to you. I hope you will investigate further as knowledge is knowledge. We carry that into our future lives. As Shantideva says, there's no limit to our minds ability to comprehend.
I wish you luck and I humbly hope you will accept for others' sake, if not your own, practices that may benefit them by not discarding due to ignorance. All practices by our lineage lamas should be respected and feel how fortunate we are to even hear about them. Our lineage lamas are free of faults, hence their practices, teachings, traditions, manners should be respected even if some cannot be applied now due to degenerate times, but they should not be seen as something Tibetan and hence culturally beneficial only.
TK
