Author Topic: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!  (Read 211325 times)

Zach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 566
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #225 on: July 15, 2010, 09:54:40 AM »
Dunno about you guys but i feel my teacher is Dorje shugden  :) And Lama Tsongkhapa, and all the other Buddhas  :)

Helena

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 653
    • Email
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #226 on: July 15, 2010, 07:15:35 PM »
Thank you, Wisdom Being for sharing those beautiful tips. They are truly great reminders that in times of great uncertainty and confusion, we should not add to that cauldron of mayhem.

Also, when all around us seem to be seething in their own emotional drama, we should do more to remain as Dharmic as possible. In fact, we have to do triple of what we normally do.

Yes, many great sacrifices have gone down in history, and many more may come to be - but you know what? I bet Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen and Dorje Shugden will never say, I GIVE UP or THIS IS SO NOT WORTH IT.

I am willing to bet that neither of them will ever whine, or wallow in self-pity. Nor will they take their frustrations and angst out on others.

They have continued to be despite it all, because EVERY SACRIFICE IS WORTH IT. Their sacrifices may even be necessary for much greater things to come.

So, if Enlightened Beings can do so much and the whole point of us studying the Dharma is to become just like them, then why are we dwelling in such pettiness and negativities? 

Can we even control ourselves - in body, speech and mind - just so to show what Dharma means to us? Even for a moment.

I love what Kate wrote. It reminds me to practise more and much harder. Most of all, NEVER TO GIVE UP no matter what.

And yes, I can still be nice about it all as what has been spelled out in the 8 Verses of Thought Transformation.

I look forward everyday to the return of the Dharma King. How should we all usher His return?

We usher his return by
1) keeping good samaya with our Guru and Dorje Shugden.
2) be informed about the history, lineage, benefits of Dorje Shugden and his practice so we can explain to people who are not so familiar with this issue.
3) practising harmony with people around us, as always advised by Dorje Shugden.
Helena

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #227 on: July 16, 2010, 02:07:05 AM »
I cannot refrain from saying what I think
I cannot abide by the forum's intent
Thanks for tolerating me all this time
I cannot delete my topic without deleting everyone's post

I cannot Accept that Dorje Shugden and Kundun
Are Working Together as Real
It makes no sense even in cosmic time

Goodbye my friends, I hope you find what you need


My dear,

You don't have to accept that Dorje Shugden and the Dalai Lama are working together. This is my belief and the belief of others in the forum. There are others who believe differently. If everyone who disagrees left, the forum would be a different place. The admin requests that we all temper our comments with the aim of keeping harmony. i see that as a good thing but not as an instruction for everyone in the forum to agree with each other!

I do understand why you and several others do not agree with the DS/DL theory.

I hope you understand where i'm coming from.

love
Kate


Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #228 on: July 16, 2010, 03:21:57 PM »

I am the same monk that slipped a piece of paper into the 13th Dalia Lama's Slipper
For my infraction, I was flayed alive for several long and anguished days.


really?

REALLY really?

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #229 on: July 16, 2010, 08:42:38 PM »
"With regards to this good news about Dorje Shugden's incarnation at sight. This to me sounds like the claims of some over enthusiastic Evangalist. Or somebody trying to play the Jehovah wittness. Is it not understood,through the testimonies of the lineage masters that Dorje Shugden is a protector with links within samsara to be in proximity with humans. Secondly,ones own Guru is understood to be the amalgamation of all Gurus,Deities and protectors. Which means that one's Guru is manifestation of Dorje Shugden per se. While I am not outrightly implying likewise that there cannot be a Tulku. Dorje Shugden would not incapacitate all the different Gurus by appearing himself as the ultimate messiah. This is not the purpouse of DS as a Dharmapala. He wants people to sincerely adhere to the Lamrim and, there is nothing higher in the beginning and the completion of the path by sincerely relying on ones Spiritual Guide."

hear hear

Lone Hermit

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #230 on: July 18, 2010, 12:18:35 AM »
Really!

Yes really!
And we're still all waiting for proof it's not the fabricated fantasy of a dedicated devotee.

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #231 on: July 18, 2010, 01:26:35 AM »
Really! I doubt anyone is waiting for anything
You'd have to confirm with the Oracle
My last life was as a Mongolian
"That all you need to know"
Who are You?
Besides your avatar?
I'd tell you to take a flying leap
But that is not allowed.


So Just to get this straight....

you are the incarnation of Demo Tulku Rinpoche?


Quote

I'd tell you to take a flying leap
But that is not allowed.


That's really clever, being meta-hostile.
I wish you WERE allowed, you could really give me a good telling off. Ah, for the days of free-speech!

Take it light, Champion
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 01:48:11 AM by crazycloud »

WisdomBeing

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2096
    • Add me to your facebook!
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #232 on: July 18, 2010, 02:27:50 AM »
Actually there's no such thing as free speech. With speech comes responsibility for its effects. That's why in the refuge vows, there are four vows related to speech - more than for mind or body. The refuge vows of the Speech are Divisive Speech, Harsh Words, Idle Chatter, Lying. If our speech is divisive or harsh, we have broken our vows. If we have the intention to hurt someone with our speech, we have broken our vows.

FYI: From Wikipedia, the definition of sarcasm - Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.”
From Dictionary.com - In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.



Kate Walker - a wannabe wisdom Being

Lone Hermit

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #233 on: July 18, 2010, 02:34:10 AM »

Just for the record, I am only as I am, Thomas David Canada
I do not pretend to be anyone else.
Certainly nothing other than myself
A Grunt for the Dharma


Posted by: thomascanada | July 11, 2010 3:18 AM
www.newsweek.washingtonpost.com

Thurman, I Challenge you to a Debate!

I am Thomas David Canada/Thom Canada/Thom/Geronimo/Lhakpa Gyaltshen/Protectors Champion/Western Shugden Society Co Founder/Council of Shambala Elders/Founder of the Tibetan Cultural Center/Co Founder of Dagom Geden Tensung Ling Monastery/Co Founder of Vajra Vega Wana Monastery.
I Stand In Defense of Teachings of Je T'Song Khapa and the Bill Of Rights!
So, be not confused any more
I've been calling you out for 15 years
Anytime, Anywhere!


Looks like you are many different people.


 ;D
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 02:36:09 AM by Lone Hermit »

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #234 on: July 18, 2010, 04:39:08 AM »
Actually there's no such thing as free speech. With speech comes responsibility for its effects. That's why in the refuge vows, there are four vows related to speech - more than for mind or body. The refuge vows of the Speech are Divisive Speech, Harsh Words, Idle Chatter, Lying. If our speech is divisive or harsh, we have broken our vows. If we have the intention to hurt someone with our speech, we have broken our vows.  FYI: From Wikipedia, the definition of sarcasm - Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.”  From Dictionary.com - In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.

Yes, well, then let me rephrase.....

Oh, for the days where no-one tried to censor your speech from the outside! 

Better?   

And as to your Dharma teaching, thank you.  I am quite content with my vows and my intention, but I thank you for your compassionate care. 

So what would you call that? I would call it sarcasm, because its intended meaning is the opposite of what the phrase literally expresses.  Perhaps I have been misunderstanding what sarcasm is, in truth it was someone else who started calling my posts sarcastic, so I went with it, thinking of the the definition I gave above. Perhaps a better word for it is irony. I am being ironic, and I have no intention to harm any person, just miserable arguments that don't make any sense. Surely that's fair game?

So you have put forth an argument that there is no free speech, of course quite deliberately misunderstanding my meaning. You then give a brief teaching on the refuge vows (in which you seem not to know what the actual refuge vows are, btw...) and then try to show that I have broken my vows. But since I have no intention to harm anyone or hurt them with my speech, surely my vows are ok?

But then why would my vows be an issue of concern for you, Kate?

best wishes...

crazycloud

  • Guest
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #235 on: July 18, 2010, 05:14:14 AM »
Also, why would it have been necessary to keep this incarnations identity a secret if he were identified twenty years ago? There were no death threats then, no violence, and many great Dorje Shugden Lamas had been reborn and recognized without incident. Things only actually began to heat up mid-nineties.

Does the story that this so called Tulku's identity was kept secret for safety reasons make sense?

btw, any word of a response from TGIE?

Lone Hermit

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 34
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #236 on: July 18, 2010, 08:23:12 AM »
Also, why would it have been necessary to keep this incarnations identity a secret if he were identified twenty years ago? There were no death threats then, no violence, and many great Dorje Shugden Lamas had been reborn and recognized without incident. Things only actually began to heat up mid-nineties.

Exactly.
And if it's not yet the right time to reveal his identity why start a thread like this in the first place?

Quote
Does the story that this so called Tulku's identity was kept secret for safety reasons make sense?

Not at all and that's why it's likely this whole TDG story is fiction.

thaimonk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #237 on: July 18, 2010, 11:36:10 AM »
Also, why would it have been necessary to keep this incarnations identity a secret if he were identified twenty years ago? There were no death threats then, no violence, and many great Dorje Shugden Lamas had been reborn and recognized without incident. Things only actually began to heat up mid-nineties.


Exactly.
And if it's not yet the right time to reveal his identity why start a thread like this in the first place?

Quote
Does the story that this so called Tulku's identity was kept secret for safety reasons make sense?


Not at all and that's why it's likely this whole TDG story is fiction.


You know, beyond Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, there are very qualified teachers, masters, incarnations and lineage holders ALSO.. So whatever the reasons, why STILL criticize?? Just read it and be still. Wait for the outcome. You may not even be alive when revealed who he is. Why does it bother you so much unless there are other undercurrents you may only know.

The Current 9th Kaka Jetsun Dampa (born in 1932) residing in Dharamsala was recognized OPENLY only in September 1991s as the supreme incarnate teacher of Mongolia.. He was 59 years old already. Now he is 78 years old this year. Just think, he was only officially and more importantly OPENLY RECOGNIZED 55 years after his first and quiet recognition by the Regent Reting Rinpoche at the age of four. No one bothered or knew about him before September 1991. It was hush-hush. Incarnations can be recognized many decades later for seen and unseen reasons. Definitely possible.
 
Installation of the Kaka Jestun Dampa line of reincarnations was banned in Mongolia since 1929. Only a small handful knew who he was for decades and it was kept a secret. But recognizing him many decades back would of upset the Mongolian Govt then a hard line Stalinist-communist regime. Now Mongolia is open to this and hence recognized and living in Dharamsala. But being the current incarnation is Tibetan and not Mongolian, there are still political issues. 

Whatever you may think that there was no controversy with the Shugden issue WITHIN THE TIBETAN communities prior to the 90's, there were already in the late 80's. It just didn't go full blown yet all over the world.
The Geshes and Tulkus around the world greeted the first news of Dorje Shugden not in Dalai Lama's favour with shock/confusion BUT just kept practicing. In fact the problems already started in the late 70's when the Dalai Lama gave up his personal practice. He just didn't blow it up. For him to give up the practice while Trijang Rinpoche was alive was a clear indication of trouble ahead. There were no death threats, or violence with the Dorje Shugden LAMAS. But the actual line of TULKU DRAKPA GYELTSEN incarnations HIMSELF WAS BANNED hundreds of years ago. Incarnate Dorje Shugden lamas and Drakpa Gyeltsen himself are VERY DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT. The Dalai Lama already believed Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was a negative spirit when he gave up the practice in the late 70's. Wouldn't be prudent if Drakpa Gyeltsen was recognized two decades ago.

Since Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen was banned by the Tibetan Govt, it would not serve any monastery's benefit if they enthroned him decades back. They do not wish to bring trouble upon themselves. Since the Dalai Lama gave up his Shugden practice in the late 70's, it would not be a smart move for any monastery to say, well here's Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen back in our Monastery. All Gelug Monasteries back then were in alignment with the Tibetan Govt and Dalai Lama.

THAIMONK



___________________________________________________________________________________________________



"Thus, when the present Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa's incarnation was recognized, at the age of four, by Reting Rinpoche, the Regent in Lhasa, as well as other high lamas and the state oracles, his identity was kept secret due to Stalin's influence and oppression in Mongolia. The country vanished from sight, customs and traditions were buried and lost until the five visits of the Dalai Lama in recent years; the last time was in August 1995 when he gave the Kalachakra Initiation.
 
The Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa was born at Tromtsikang and then moved to Shol, just below the Potala. His father, Lobsang Jampal, was from Phenpo and his mother, Yangchen was from Kham. At the age of seven, he entered Gomang College, Drepung Monastery, as a simple monk where he studied philosophy for fourteen years, up to the level of Madhyamika. At Gomang he studied primarily with a teacher from Mongolia named Geshe Thupten Nyima. He received his dharma lineages from His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
 
His Holiness the Panchen Rinpoche, Gyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Gyabje Ling Rinpoche, and Gyabje Lhatsun Rinpoche were his teachers in the Gelukpa lineage. H.H. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche was his teacher in the Nyingma lineage; Kalu Rinpoche was his teacher in the Kagyu lineage; and Sakya Tenzin Rinpoche was his teacher in the Sakya lineage. At the age of 21, he left Gomang College and Drepung to engage in a series of Chod meditations, living the life of a yogi, while on pilgrimage to the holy sites of Tibet.
 
At the age of 25, he gave back his monastic vows, and then went to stay at Ganden Phunstok Ling, established by his predecesor Taranatha, until the age of 29 when the Chinese invasion forced him into exile, along with hundreds of thousands of Tibetans.
 
In India, he lived with his family in Darjeeling and Mysore, until 1981, and later in Madhya Pradesh in central India until 1990, quietly serving as lama for the Tibetan community in exile throughout that time. During this period of time Rinpoche did many meditations and gave public teachings in the Tibetan settlements several times a year.
 
Then, in 1991, with the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the new-found religious freedom felt in Mongolia, many Mongolian monasteries sent their abbots and lamas and ministers to India to request inquiry of the Dalai Lama in Dharamsala about the possible location of the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dampa. Did His Holiness know where he was, who he is, and could the Dalai Lama recognize him for the peoples of Mongolia?
 
It was at that time, through the Religious Office of the Tibetan Government in Exile, that the Dalai Lama gave the official stamp of recognition and acknowledgement of the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa, the spiritual head of Buddhism in Mongolia. He moved to Dharamsala to be closer to His Holiness the Dalai Lama, and in 1991, he was officially enthroned as the Ninth Khalkha Jetsun Dhampa, amid great and joyous celebration."

--cited from: http://www.jetsundhampa.com/




Losang_Tenpa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
    • Email
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #238 on: July 18, 2010, 11:37:46 AM »
I find it strange that so many are so willing to make up their minds before more information is available. The monks here at Shar Gaden seem to see this news with a more optimistic view. None that I have talked to have made up their minds, one way or another, before hearing more. I will follow their example.

thaimonk

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!
« Reply #239 on: July 18, 2010, 11:41:14 AM »
I find it strange that so many are so willing to make up their minds before more information is available. The monks here at Shar Gaden seem to see this news with a more optimistic view. None that I have talked to have made up their minds, one way or another, before hearing more. I will follow their example.

I agree with you Tenzin Sungrab. I agree with the monks. Just be optimistic without making up your minds. I have followed their example and your's. Thank you for the sane logic.