Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!

[LosangKhyentse]

Ha Ha ha!
Thanks goodness our Lord Shugden is finally here to save us! He must be an amazing lama! how kind our gurus are for this new stratagem that will shake the world!!!

Finally there is concrete evidence that all the accusation on Dorje Shugden being an evil spirit is false.

That's right, because someone typing something into an input field IS concrete evidence!

Very sarcastic.

tk

[LosangKhyentse]

H.O.A.X

?

tk

[LosangKhyentse]

I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.

How very surprising.

Sarcastic. Got more examples, but everyone can read for themselves. How unpleasant to come across this in the forum here, when we have so many against us already and we have be like this with eachother. Om Mani Peme Hung.

tk

[LosangKhyentse]

Why incessantly criticize someone you have never seen. Just because he is a tulku and all tulkus have been bad. I don't think so.

tk you have gotten confused

If they said there's a Tsongkapa incarnation, yes I would be like great, but I would reserve ANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THIS PERSON TILL I HAVE CHECKED IT OUT.

to make your points seem less arbitrary, please cite one bad thing I have said about this person.

No matter what efforts I put is not appreciated for the effort and the sincerity alone, then that alone speaks volumes.

Oh for goodness sake!. I appreciate your efforts, ya big baby.

You have misinterpreted, I believe, what ZP was saying. I believe he meant that if I allow my exasperation with the forum members to make me leave, then I have lost. I am not sure what fifth column refers to.

In any case, it is certainly not me vs. you to see who will win, so try to relax. You usally post very calmly, but now yo8u have almost descended to my level. 

Sorry to say, humbly,

Tk

keep it humble tk. love it.

"Ya big baby? or Keep it humble??" I find those unnecessary and sarcastic.
I think that would be enough examples.

tk

[thaimonk]

I don't know who crazy cloud is nor do I know tk, but I do find the comments from crazy cloud sarcastic and rude. It is unnecessary I feel. I am not on anyone's side but let's keep it nice.

THAIMONK

[crazycloud]

"Ya big baby? or Keep it humble??" I find those unnecessary and sarcastic.
I think that would be enough examples.

tk

Hi Tk

They may or may not be unnecessary, but those are not examples of sarcasm, those are good natured ribbing. I jokingly called you a big baby because I believed you were being overly sensitive and petulant. I thought light teasing might be ok. I see that I was wrong and  I do apologize if I hurt your feelings. I am still not sure why the people of this forum are SO sensitive and controlling with respect to other peoples speech, but there ya go.

I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.

How very surprising.

Kate was kind enough to do some research, and based on her findings, i must say that i don;t think that this is sarcastic either. (From Wikipedia, the definition of sarcasm - Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.”  From Dictionary.com - In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.)

There is no jibe, no taunt, no ridicule, no mockery, no contempt, no destructive intention.

This is a dry way of saying that I am not surprised. Why should that wound anyone? I think the word you are looking for is irony, not sarcasm.

H.O.A.X

again this is not an example of sarcasm, this was my expressed belief at the time that this was a hoax. I have no idea why this should hurt anyone's feelings.

So why is it that you cannot interact with me here without getting your feelings hurt? Must you insist on controlling how others speak?

I asked you to back up your comment because I had not said anything sarcastic in the posts you were responding to, so I was surprised. Now I see you are still nursing resentment about things I have said in the past. So even if i do not say something new that is sarcastic, you will keep referring to old things and being hurt by them?

[Helena]

Dear CC,

Firstly, let me just say that I do appreciate you taking the time to point out what you do not agree with in my posts. Especially, in my thread about the ban on the search for TDG's reincarnation.

In that thread, you put forth your views very clearly and without any hint of ill intent, rudeness or sacarsm or ironic remarks. And I do appreciate that because it is not an attack on me. At least, I do not perceive it to be. So, I do not feel in any way offended.

However, I cannot say the same of your tone of voice in this thread and others. I shall repost one particular comment which shocked me when I read it. And yes, I was quite taken back with your choice of words. Please read the below. This was posted by you in this particular thread on 12th July :-

I actually do respect everyone on this forum, but I will attack what I see to be miserable views, and I will do so with the means at my disposal. For me, it's fun. I suggest others learn to enjoy it and stop trying to dictate what style of speech one should use. Otherwise, why join a forum for discussing? Get a few people you like and email your agreed upon views back and forth to each other

Now, I hope you will not take an offence for me to tell you this as a friend. Because you do not strike me as someone who do not wish to hear the truth. And you post for TS in News From Shar Gaden shows me that you are indeed a very caring person who is dedicated to the Dharma.

I don't know who you are nor do I know the people here.  But if your tine has affected this many other people and not just one person, then do you not pause to think why? Do you not wish to find out how come a lot of people felt that way too?

So, I hope you take this in the same manner in which I have received your comments in my other thread. This is not an attack. This is just sharing with you in hope you also understand.

May be it is very much valued by the rest in this Forum when you do not attack, and think it is fun to do so, but just forth your views with the intention of finding out the truth or just wanting to develop more understanding.

Again, I sincerely hope you do not take this wrong way, because you have much knowledge and much to share.

I may not always agree with you, but hey, I do respect you as a fellow dharma brother/friend. In fact, your comments have motivated me to search the net much more, find out more and learn up. So, today I can say I do know more because Crazy Cloud kept saying I am not right, but not in a rude way.

Thank you for that indeed. You have a wonderful day now, CC.

[honeydakini]

"Ya big baby? or Keep it humble??" I find those unnecessary and sarcastic.
I think that would be enough examples.

tk

Hi Tk

They may or may not be unnecessary, but those are not examples of sarcasm, those are good natured ribbing. I jokingly called you a big baby because I believed you were being overly sensitive and petulant. I thought light teasing might be ok. I see that I was wrong and  I do apologize if I hurt your feelings. I am still not sure why the people of this forum are SO sensitive and controlling with respect to other peoples speech, but there ya go.

I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.

How very surprising.

Kate was kind enough to do some research, and based on her findings, i must say that i don;t think that this is sarcastic either. (From Wikipedia, the definition of sarcasm - Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.”  From Dictionary.com - In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.)

There is no jibe, no taunt, no ridicule, no mockery, no contempt, no destructive intention.

This is a dry way of saying that I am not surprised. Why should that wound anyone? I think the word you are looking for is irony, not sarcasm.

H.O.A.X

again this is not an example of sarcasm, this was my expressed belief at the time that this was a hoax. I have no idea why this should hurt anyone's feelings.

So why is it that you cannot interact with me here without getting your feelings hurt? Must you insist on controlling how others speak?

I asked you to back up your comment because I had not said anything sarcastic in the posts you were responding to, so I was surprised. Now I see you are still nursing resentment about things I have said in the past. So even if i do not say something new that is sarcastic, you will keep referring to old things and being hurt by them?

I believe that if we're truly sorry about something, then we don't need to follow on our apology with explanations, justifications and further comments/ opinions about others' reactions to us. It's like saying, "I'm sorry I broke your antique vase but you shouldn't have put it on that table; I was just walking past it and hit it and it fell over; why do you make such a big deal, it's just a vase anyway."

If you're sorry for "hurting TK's feelings" as you say in the first paragraph, then why do you go on and on to question WHY his feelings are hurt and make it out like it is his problem - that he's nursing resentment, that he's controlling how others speak, that people on the forum are sensitive etc etc and then explain and explain.

If you're really sorry for hurting someone's feelings, then isn't it just about that: the fact that someone's feelings are hurt? The very fact that we have to explain, justify and point back at what others are doing "wrong" shows clearly that the apology was not a real apology at all.

[Big Uncle]

Doubt is fine. Criticism added to doubt and sarcasm to bring the point across is not.

tk

What criticism and sarcasm are you referencing?

Don't be shy, Tk, you mentioned some sarcasm, could you please point it out or else refrain from making such statements in future, please?

Dear Crazy Cloud,

I don't want to take sides on this issue but you ask for the examples of sarcasm and tk oblige your request. He quoted examples of it. Then you say tk is shy and oversensitive about this whole issue... Why do you keep goading him on? I find that rather unnecessary and I think tk has been rather patient about this. Then, you apologise for something... and you turn around and explain yourself again. Wouldn't the forums be a lot nicer place to share news and knowledge of Shugden without all this unnecessary explanations and apologies?

Big Uncle

[honeydakini]

However, I cannot say the same of your tone of voice in this thread and others. I shall repost one particular comment which shocked me when I read it. And yes, I was quite taken back with your choice of words. Please read the below. This was posted by you in this particular thread on 12th July :-

actually do respect everyone on this forum, but I will attack what I see to be miserable views, and I will do so with the means at my disposal. For me, it's fun. I suggest others learn to enjoy it and stop trying to dictate what style of speech one should use. Otherwise, why join a forum for discussing? Get a few people you like and email your agreed upon views back and forth to each other

A reminder too of the forum's rules, short and simple: We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone.

I'm sure we all agree that we appreciate having a space to discuss and learn different views. What I certainly don't appreciate is when it becomes "fun" to do for the sake of just arguing or wanting to be right. "Attack what I see to be miserable views"... it's exactly that - WHAT YOU SEE to be miserable views. Whether they are "miserable" or not is besides the point. That's your interpretation and already you are taking a judgmental high ground that no one has the right to here. You are making things personal now; note your choice of words: to attack? I don't believe this is what the forum is about, as is clearly stated above. It's about a healthy debate, gaining understanding (even of the things we don't agree to).

All of us have the right to our points of view; we could even agree to disagree and have completely opposing views. But to start jibing at each other, mocking, being sarcastic or ironic about what someone may hold seriously as their beliefs just doesn't contribute towards a harmonious environment - how can it??

Think about whether a comment for or against a view is actually contributing information, knowledge or education to the topic at hand. Or does the comment just argue for the sake or arguing because:
1) you find it "miserable"
2) you personally aren't convinced of that view / don't like that view
3) it's "fun" to just stir things up

No matter how much we may agree or disagree with someone (or a group of people) on the forum, remember that it's not just the people who post who may read these posts. With the thousands and thousands of people logging onto the website, I am sure a large percentage also visit the forum and read to gain more understanding of the practices and teachings. Don't forget them - how does anything we say add to their knowledge and learning? How does making sarcastic, ironic, jibing little one-liners add to someone's education? Or will it just make them leave with the impression that this is how Buddhists "debate" and put each other down to make a point?

[thaimonk]

 
Trinley Kalsang,

I've noticed a trend. You like to always 'attack' tk thoughts/writings. You should rejoice in his sharing of knowledge and generosity. If your not attacking, it sure appears so. Either way, you can think about it. I'm not waiting for your reply. Sorry and thanks.

Cheers.

p.s. You may doubt this incarnation's existence but not carry to the  point of excluding all other possibilities. It's not just your way or Tk's way. But leave it open. What else do you wish to say to convince us totally this TDG incarnation doesn't exist? You've said it all already. 

[DSFriend]

I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.

How very surprising.

With the pervasive use of the internet, our first stop is usually google search. But it's not surprising to me that this piece of info could come from outside of the net...

[thaimonk]

I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.

How very surprising.

With the pervasive use of the internet, our first stop is usually google search. But it's not surprising to me that this piece of info could come from outside of the net...

I would guess the information for this arose from Kyabje Drakpa Gyeltsen's students or assistants. Or else someone would of written in saying take it off as this is not authorized. I doubt this website would simple post without being sure as this website has no history of this type of action when I read the old threads.

[crazycloud]

Dear CC,

Firstly, let me just say that I do appreciate you taking the time to point out what you do not agree with in my posts. Especially, in my thread about the ban on the search for TDG's reincarnation.

In that thread, you put forth your views very clearly and without any hint of ill intent, rudeness or sacarsm or ironic remarks. And I do appreciate that because it is not an attack on me. At least, I do not perceive it to be. So, I do not feel in any way offended.

However, I cannot say the same of your tone of voice in this thread and others. I shall repost one particular comment which shocked me when I read it. And yes, I was quite taken back with your choice of words. Please read the below. This was posted by you in this particular thread on 12th July :-

I actually do respect everyone on this forum, but I will attack what I see to be miserable views, and I will do so with the means at my disposal. For me, it's fun. I suggest others learn to enjoy it and stop trying to dictate what style of speech one should use. Otherwise, why join a forum for discussing? Get a few people you like and email your agreed upon views back and forth to each other

Now, I hope you will not take an offence for me to tell you this as a friend. Because you do not strike me as someone who do not wish to hear the truth. And you post for TS in News From Shar Gaden shows me that you are indeed a very caring person who is dedicated to the Dharma.

I don't know who you are nor do I know the people here.  But if your tine has affected this many other people and not just one person, then do you not pause to think why? Do you not wish to find out how come a lot of people felt that way too?

So, I hope you take this in the same manner in which I have received your comments in my other thread. This is not an attack. This is just sharing with you in hope you also understand.

May be it is very much valued by the rest in this Forum when you do not attack, and think it is fun to do so, but just forth your views with the intention of finding out the truth or just wanting to develop more understanding.

Again, I sincerely hope you do not take this wrong way, because you have much knowledge and much to share.

I may not always agree with you, but hey, I do respect you as a fellow dharma brother/friend. In fact, your comments have motivated me to search the net much more, find out more and learn up. So, today I can say I do know more because Crazy Cloud kept saying I am not right, but not in a rude way.

Thank you for that indeed. You have a wonderful day now, CC.

Hi St

I appreciate your thoughtful post, and in no way consider it an attack. You seem like a fine person.

In general, I find the thought of being offended by what a completely unknown person writes on the internet to be slightly preposterous.

I have indeed given some thought to why people have reacted the way they have to my tone, and I have concluded that it is because they are living in a fantasy about controlling others' speech. Any good debate always has some rough and ready characters who sometimes go outside the boundaries of what others in the discussion consider to be good taste. Usually, I am much further towards the center in a debate, but I find the overall tone of some of these discussions to be somewhat...limp,  and also too uniform for my taste. So I say my piece.

May be it is very much valued by the rest in this Forum when you do not attack, and think it is fun to do so, but just forth your views with the intention of finding out the truth or just wanting to develop more understanding.

I appreciate your point of view, but you need to understand that often my views are about the views of others, and if I find these views objectionable, I will speak right up. I do consider it a shame that people's feelings are hurt, but I guess y'all need to toughen up a bit, especially as I am not actually attacking anyone (with the exception of Tk, who I called a "big baby." It was meant in the spirit of affectionate fun and teasing, but obviously I misjudged and there was a great deal of hurt expressed. My bad. Again, it is beyond me that this could hurt the feelings of anyone, much less a lojong practitioner of decades of experience...)

So thanks for your comments and keep up the good work.

ps I AM having such a fine day today, the weather is glorious here, and all is well! thanks for your well-wishes!

[crazycloud]

"Ya big baby? or Keep it humble??" I find those unnecessary and sarcastic.
I think that would be enough examples.

tk

Hi Tk

They may or may not be unnecessary, but those are not examples of sarcasm, those are good natured ribbing. I jokingly called you a big baby because I believed you were being overly sensitive and petulant. I thought light teasing might be ok. I see that I was wrong and  I do apologize if I hurt your feelings. I am still not sure why the people of this forum are SO sensitive and controlling with respect to other peoples speech, but there ya go.

I did a quick google search and no where else can this info be found except whatever is extracted from this announcement.

How very surprising.

Kate was kind enough to do some research, and based on her findings, i must say that i don;t think that this is sarcastic either. (From Wikipedia, the definition of sarcasm - Sarcasm is “a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.”  From Dictionary.com - In sarcasm, ridicule or mockery is used harshly, often crudely and contemptuously, for destructive purposes.)

There is no jibe, no taunt, no ridicule, no mockery, no contempt, no destructive intention.

This is a dry way of saying that I am not surprised. Why should that wound anyone? I think the word you are looking for is irony, not sarcasm.

H.O.A.X

again this is not an example of sarcasm, this was my expressed belief at the time that this was a hoax. I have no idea why this should hurt anyone's feelings.

So why is it that you cannot interact with me here without getting your feelings hurt? Must you insist on controlling how others speak?

I asked you to back up your comment because I had not said anything sarcastic in the posts you were responding to, so I was surprised. Now I see you are still nursing resentment about things I have said in the past. So even if i do not say something new that is sarcastic, you will keep referring to old things and being hurt by them?

I believe that if we're truly sorry about something, then we don't need to follow on our apology with explanations, justifications and further comments/ opinions about others' reactions to us. It's like saying, "I'm sorry I broke your antique vase but you shouldn't have put it on that table; I was just walking past it and hit it and it fell over; why do you make such a big deal, it's just a vase anyway."

If you're sorry for "hurting TK's feelings" as you say in the first paragraph, then why do you go on and on to question WHY his feelings are hurt and make it out like it is his problem - that he's nursing resentment, that he's controlling how others speak, that people on the forum are sensitive etc etc and then explain and explain.

If you're really sorry for hurting someone's feelings, then isn't it just about that: the fact that someone's feelings are hurt? The very fact that we have to explain, justify and point back at what others are doing "wrong" shows clearly that the apology was not a real apology at all.

yah all good points.  I unreservedly apologize that I hurt Tk's feelings by calling him a big baby. The rest of the explanation was about the other stuff that I wrote that I do not apologize for!