Dorje Shugden Is Alive and Amongst Us Today!

[crazycloud]

Doubt is fine. Criticism added to doubt and sarcasm to bring the point across is not.

tk

What criticism and sarcasm are you referencing?

Don't be shy, Tk, you mentioned some sarcasm, could you please point it out or else refrain from making such statements in future, please?

I don't want to take sides on this issue but you ask for the examples of sarcasm and tk oblige your request. He quoted examples of it.

So my point was that he was still saying  I was being sarcastic after I stopped any use of sarcasm. i wanted to have people look and see that the proper name for what I am doing is being ironic, as according to the definition supplied by wisdombeing, sarcasm is intended to would and is derogatory etc.

Then you say tk is shy and oversensitive about this whole issue... Why do you keep goading him on?

I was goading him to reply and that was before he responded after he answered a few other things on the same thread but chose to ingnore my sincer and non-offensively worded question. I believed he was trying to ignore me as others have done, and I was exhorting him to answer. Once he replied, there was no goading, if there ever was.

I find that rather unnecessary and I think tk has been rather patient about this. Then, you apologise for something... and you turn around and explain yourself again. Wouldn't the forums be a lot nicer place to share news and knowledge of Shugden without all this unnecessary explanations and apologies?

see above for my response to honeydakini.
I think the forum would be a much nicer place if people just spoke their minds and took everything with a grain of salt. but hey, I'm sure we all have a different idea about what nice is.

cheers

[crazycloud]

A reminder too of the forum's rules, short and simple: We promote and value HARMONY. Please do not post anything negative about any lamas, sects, deities or anyone.

yah I think I never did.....

What I certainly don't appreciate is when it becomes "fun" to do for the sake of just arguing or wanting to be right.

I'm afraid you will just have to deal with that with all the dharma means at your disposal

 

"Attack what I see to be miserable views"... it's exactly that - WHAT YOU SEE to be miserable views.Whether they are "miserable" or not is besides the point. That's your interpretation...

correct

and already you are taking a judgmental high ground that no one has the right to here.

not at all the case, completely made up assertion. I feel everyone is welcome here.

You are making things personal now; note your choice of words: to attack? I don't believe this is what the forum is about, as is clearly stated above. It's about a healthy debate, gaining understanding (even of the things we don't agree to).

attacking someones view precisely isn't personal. I I do feel I am gaining an increasing understanding of many views  I disagree with here.

All of us have the right to our points of view;

I am sure I couln't agree more

we could even agree to disagree and have completely opposing views. But to start jibing at each other, mocking, being sarcastic or ironic about what someone may hold seriously as their beliefs just doesn't contribute towards a harmonious environment - how can it??

It's just a form of debate. Moreover, as i have stated, I am not mocking anyone personally, just mistaken views. If a view that someone holds seriously as a belief is mocked, they should defend it. If their view is reasonable, they will win thorugh, or at least clarify the situation. If someone has a racist belief, for example, and are insulted by my mocking of that view, what can be done? I don't think respecting their view is the way to go.

Think about whether a comment for or against a view is actually contributing information, knowledge or education to the topic at hand. Or does the comment just argue for the sake or arguing because:
1) you find it "miserable"

rebutting a miserable (read:incorrect and deleterious) view does contribute information, knowledge and education to the topic at hand

2) you personally aren't convinced of that view / don't like that view

I always represent my own views, perhaps they will change in the future.

3) it's "fun" to just stir things up

You have my sincere promise that I do not and will not create havoc here "just for fun." I do not actually find that fun. What I do find enjoyable is refuting view I disagree with, somethimes using various rhetorical devices, including irony. If people get all riled up about it, i don't mind that at all, it makes for a better debate. We should refrain form intentionally hurting others and name calling etc.

No matter how much we may agree or disagree with someone (or a group of people) on the forum, remember that it's not just the people who post who may read these posts. With the thousands and thousands of people logging onto the website, I am sure a large percentage also visit the forum and read to gain more understanding of the practices and teachings. Don't forget them - how does anything we say add to their knowledge and learning?

I hope so, and i am glad that they see a diversity of opinion here.

How does making sarcastic, ironic, jibing little one-liners add to someone's education? Or will it just make them leave with the impression that this is how Buddhists "debate" and put each other down to make a point?

As I have said, I am not putting anyone down. Outside of that, I imagine someone who appreciates a good acerbic style will have their education added to, as well as those who are mature enough to try to understand the content rather than judging the debate by their own personal tastes in debate style.

cheers HD

[Helena]

Dear CC,

Perhaps there may be a lot of people in this Forum from very different upbringing, education and cultural backgrounds also - regardless of having Dharma or not, and being a sincere or mature practitioner or not.

Perhaps might be good to consider that each individual's cultural/educational background and upbringing may see things very differently from the way you do, or I do. And vice versa.

Asians will definitely see things very differently from Westerners. Americans respond very differently from Europeans. Even in Asians, the different ethnic groups will communicate and understand in their own unique way.

I can tell you, living in HK is like being in a huge melting pot of different cultures and what nots. So, it takes a lot of skill and time to learn how to communicate with different people so that misunderstandings do not arise.

In any case, what should matter most is that we want to strive for a deeper and richer understanding of the subject matter at hand. I am sure you'd like others to understand your point of views too, and not just think they are coming down hard on you or vice versa.

I, myself, have offended some people in here before such as A Friend. But I did sincerely apologise. And I do mean it. I learn a great deal from there too. And yes, I adjust myself. But I do not consider that a bad thing. It's a work-in-progress for higher understanding.

So, we all have to learn/modify/improve as we also do in real life - ie outside of this Forum.

Otherwise, how would we achieve harmony, peace and friendship in the real sense?

Anyways, this is really just a personal sharing. You may not agree and it is not designed for convincing you either.
Something tells me you are one of those who will decide for himself and hates people pushing him around to a certain way of thinking.

I am glad to know that you are having a glorious day. Enjoy.

Here's to harmony and friendship. May they always endure and rise above every pettiness and misunderstandings.

[crazycloud]

Dear CC,

Perhaps there may be a lot of people in this Forum from very different upbringing, education and cultural backgrounds also - regardless of having Dharma or not, and being a sincere or mature practitioner or not.

Perhaps might be good to consider that each individual's cultural/educational background and upbringing may see things very differently from the way you do, or I do. And vice versa.

Asians will definitely see things very differently from Westerners. Americans respond very differently from Europeans. Even in Asians, the different ethnic groups will communicate and understand in their own unique way.

I can tell you, living in HK is like being in a huge melting pot of different cultures and what nots. So, it takes a lot of skill and time to learn how to communicate with different people so that misunderstandings do not arise.

In any case, what should matter most is that we want to strive for a deeper and richer understanding of the subject matter at hand. I am sure you'd like others to understand your point of views too, and not just think they are coming down hard on you or vice versa.

I, myself, have offended some people in here before such as A Friend. But I did sincerely apologise. And I do mean it. I learn a great deal from there too. And yes, I adjust myself. But I do not consider that a bad thing. It's a work-in-progress for higher understanding.

So, we all have to learn/modify/improve as we also do in real life - ie outside of this Forum.

Otherwise, how would we achieve harmony, peace and friendship in the real sense?

Anyways, this is really just a personal sharing. You may not agree and it is not designed for convincing you either.
Something tells me you are one of those who will decide for himself and hates people pushing him around to a certain way of thinking.

I am glad to know that you are having a glorious day. Enjoy.

Here's to harmony and friendship. May they always endure and rise above every pettiness and misunderstandings.

great stuff, so true.

I do appreciate your "sharing" and am glad you have no interest in convincing me, it really comes across. Of course as a result, it has a greater effect on my mind, pacifying me like music soothes a wild beast.

As to my character, I am mercurial and change a great deal depending on circumstances. I will allow myself to be pushed around if I think it serves the greater good, but you are right, i will always decide for myself.

 I do notice a great deal of misunderstandings of my posts, so perhaps I will modify in future, who knows?

This all kicked off with what I perceived to be unreserved praise and an uncritcal rush to align with what is essentially a rumor, the return of TDG. (please not- I am not at all criticizing optimism or any lama or person, I am criticisng, as others have done, the willingness to support someone we know nothing about.)  I will always be critical of such reactions, although I believe fully in the validity of oracles and Tulkus. Have you noticed that no matter how many times this is said, and despite the fact that I have never, not once claimed the opposite, that people are still using their best reasoning to show that Tulkus and Oracles ARE valid? I must confess, it does sharpen my tongue...

This said, I have the deepest wish for the happiness and great success of everyone on this forum, whoever you may be. Just don't predicate that happiness on hoping I turn into Mr. Sunshine in the face of what I consider to be manipulative nonsense, and you will have a happier day than otherwise.

cheers all

[LosangKhyentse]

great stuff, so true.

I do appreciate your "sharing" and am glad you have no interest in convincing me, it really comes across. Of course as a result, it has a greater effect on my mind, pacifying me like music soothes a wild beast.

As to my character, I am mercurial and change a great deal depending on circumstances. I will allow myself to be pushed around if I think it serves the greater good, but you are right, i will always decide for myself.

 I do notice a great deal of misunderstandings of my posts, so perhaps I will modify in future, who knows?


cheers all

It's nice to have the real crazy cloud appear. Your posts did create misunderstanding as words on a screen are very one-sided without seeing the person actually express them.

Thank you for this post.

It is nice to get to just sharing on the forum and learning from eachother even if we have different views and approaches.   We still share the same Dharmaphala. We should unite to clear his practice. We have different reasons for his practice and we have different lamas with different views that overflow to our thinking-and that is ok. It's ok if some believe in oracles, tulkus and Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen's incarnation or don't. We can express our opinions of how we feel without the need to exclude any other possibilities. But what is important is many others BESIDES US read this forum and we must be responsible for the information, tone, and method we impart. Words on the screen can be misread easily-you are right.

It's nice to combine our efforts and write here consistently and with great knowledge so that the hundreds of guest readers (much more than the actual forum participants) will go away understanding Dorje Shugden and what is happening for the better after visiting us. Please join us in doing so continuously.

TK

[Helena]

TK, I cannot agree with you more! So eloquently written. You always write very well and have so much to share.

I do value fellow Dharma Friends like you who exemplify through your speech and actions.

You truly walk the talk.

Thank you and have a beautiful weekend!

[Helena]

Dear CC,

THANK YOU for your sharing and post.

Please do always keep your mind sharp but a little gentleness on your tongue would also soothe the wild beasts within all our minds too.

You have a great weekend now.

*BIG SMILES*

great stuff, so true.

I do appreciate your "sharing" and am glad you have no interest in convincing me, it really comes across. Of course as a result, it has a greater effect on my mind, pacifying me like music soothes a wild beast.

As to my character, I am mercurial and change a great deal depending on circumstances. I will allow myself to be pushed around if I think it serves the greater good, but you are right, i will always decide for myself.

 I do notice a great deal of misunderstandings of my posts, so perhaps I will modify in future, who knows?

This all kicked off with what I perceived to be unreserved praise and an uncritcal rush to align with what is essentially a rumor, the return of TDG. (please not- I am not at all criticizing optimism or any lama or person, I am criticisng, as others have done, the willingness to support someone we know nothing about.)  I will always be critical of such reactions, although I believe fully in the validity of oracles and Tulkus. Have you noticed that no matter how many times this is said, and despite the fact that I have never, not once claimed the opposite, that people are still using their best reasoning to show that Tulkus and Oracles ARE valid? I must confess, it does sharpen my tongue...

This said, I have the deepest wish for the happiness and great success of everyone on this forum, whoever you may be. Just don't predicate that happiness on hoping I turn into Mr. Sunshine in the face of what I consider to be manipulative nonsense, and you will have a happier day than otherwise.

cheers all
[/quote]

[Losang_Tenpa]

Dorje Shugden and Saint George – Brothers in Arms


Some time ago I was attending teachings at a Dharma center. During a break I joined a group of visitors who were being shown round. One of them expressed surprise at the figure of a Tibetan Buddha who was holding a sword and riding a fierce looking Himalayan snow lion. She wanted to know why, if Buddhism was a religion of peace and gentleness, this Buddha was armed.

The guide explained that the Buddha was Dorje Shugden, who was the Dharma Protector of the center. A Dharma Protector has the function of spiritual guidance and protection of those who follow a particular Buddhist path. The sword was symbolic and was used to cut through the bonds of ignorance and attachment which bind us to Samsara. It was certainly not for injuring sentient beings.

This explanation of the role of Dorje Shugden (also spelled Dorje Shugdan) very much reminded me of the concept of a Patron Saint in Christianity, and in particular of Saint George, who is also depicted as an armed knight.

Saint George is usually shown in combat with a dragon, which he is attempting to slay using a sword, or sometimes when depicted on horseback he has a lance.

Of course the dragon also is not a sentient being. Terrestrial reptiles of that size (let alone fire-breathing ones!) have not existed during human history, so they can’t be some sort of folk memory of dinosaurs – though I suppose it is possible that dinosaur fossils may have been unearthed in ancient times and given rise to legends of dragons.

But, as Brian Bates points out in The Real Middle Earth [1], to ancient peoples dragons had an allegorical and symbolic significance. The typical dragon would gather and guard a hoard of treasure, and fly into fiery and destructive anger if any of the treasure were removed. And yet the dragon could not spend any of its wealth. Tolkien’s Smaug in The Hobbit has many precedents in ancient folklore.

So the symbol of the dragon represents the two useless and destructive delusions of attachment and anger, which Saint George is attempting to destroy.

The historical Saint George was a native of Cappadocia and was martyred for his beliefs in 303 AD by the emperor Diocletian. Thus the legend of St George dates from the earliest period of Christianity, when it was still close to its Buddhist roots [2].

Saint George is the Patron Saint of several countries and cities, and is often regarded, like some of the Arthurian knights, as a symbol of Christian chivalry.

As with Saint George, the historical Dorje Shugden also suffered martyrdom for speaking his mind. According to Donald Lopez Jr.[3] he was a learned and virtuous monk of the seventeenth century. He was also an expert debater, but one day his debating skills annoyed the establishment and he was found dead soon after with a ceremonial scarf stuffed down his throat.

Following his death, Dorje Shudgen was adopted as the protector of the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism. In common with St. George, he has a chivalrous aspect, his forceful functions being to ‘dispel false accusations against the innocent’ and to act as the ‘protector of the protectorless’ [4] .

So we can perhaps think of the two supramundane knights – one Buddhist, the other Christian – as brothers-in-arms in the bloodless war against delusions.

 
Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
‘Gainst the dragons of anger, the ogres of greed;
And let me set free, with the sword of my youth,
From the castle of darkness, the power of the truth.

From   ‘WHEN A KNIGHT WON HIS SPURS’


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
REFS

[1] The Real Middle Earth by Brian Bates, published Sidgwick and Jackson 2002. ISBN 0 283 07353 5

[2] Key dates for the politically inspired removal of the Buddhist teachings from Christianity are -

In the East, the Second Council of Constantinople 553 AD.
In the West, the Synod of Whitby in 664.
The process was completed with the Papal extermination of the Cathars (Albigensians) in the 13th century.
[3] ‘Two Sides of the same God’ by Donald S. Lopez, Jr. in Tricycle, Vol VII, No 3 Spring 1998, pp 67 to 69.

[4] ‘Heart Jewel’ by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, second edition published Tharpa 1997 ISBN 0 948006 56 0 p.119.

This is great stuff! Thank you for posting this.

[thaimonk]

Perhaps there may be a lot of people in this Forum from very different upbringing, education and cultural backgrounds also - regardless of having Dharma or not, and being a sincere or mature practitioner or not.

Perhaps might be good to consider that each individual's cultural/educational background and upbringing may see things very differently from the way you do, or I do. And vice versa.

Asians will definitely see things very differently from Westerners. Americans respond very differently from Europeans. Even in Asians, the different ethnic groups will communicate and understand in their own unique way.

I can tell you, living in HK is like being in a huge melting pot of different cultures and what nots. So, it takes a lot of skill and time to learn how to communicate with different people so that misunderstandings do not arise.

In any case, what should matter most is that we want to strive for a deeper and richer understanding of the subject matter at hand. I am sure you'd like others to understand your point of views too, and not just think they are coming down hard on you or vice versa.

I, myself, have offended some people in here before such as A Friend. But I did sincerely apologise. And I do mean it. I learn a great deal from there too. And yes, I adjust myself. But I do not consider that a bad thing. It's a work-in-progress for higher understanding.

So, we all have to learn/modify/improve as we also do in real life - ie outside of this Forum.

Otherwise, how would we achieve harmony, peace and friendship in the real sense?

Anyways, this is really just a personal sharing. You may not agree and it is not designed for convincing you either.
Something tells me you are one of those who will decide for himself and hates people pushing him around to a certain way of thinking.

I am glad to know that you are having a glorious day. Enjoy.

Here's to harmony and friendship. May they always endure and rise above every pettiness and misunderstandings.

What a wonderful and forgiving way of looking at things. You must really take your Lam Rim studies seriously. You must really try to live from Lam Rim. Your posts reflect that.

I enjoy your posts.

Thanks.

[thaimonk]

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

- Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's advice in Music Delighting The Ocean Of Protectors:, 1967

[Helena]

I remember something my Teacher said to me a while back, but I didn't understand it then. Perhaps, now it is starting to sink in - He said that Dharma does not just revolve around liking the things we like, doing the things we enjoy and only accepting and liking the people we like. It is easy and even natural for us to like the people we like, do the things we enjoy but it is hard to do all that for the people we do not like, the things we do not enjoy. Especially more when it concerns the people who have harmed us or hurt us in any way. But this is when we will practice the Dharma we have learnt even more. And our practice will reflect how well we can do the things we hate, be nice to the people who do not like and continue not to feel any negativity towards them.

Come to think of it, my teacher was always stressing about not giving up on anything or anyone. He said, if we give up so easily, then we do not need the Dharma for that - we already do so well in our normal everyday lives.

When there is no so much darkness, confusion and negative feelings - I do not think people would need more darkness, more ugly words, and hatred to add to the already very painful situation. That would not help at all. In fact, people would need more light, in order to see clearly and better. They would welcome more clarity presented in a manner that does not disparage anyone, and more positive vibes to lift the already very gloomy state.

We do not need to add fuel to a burning house. We need more water to save the house and especially, the lives trapped inside the house.

So, is this Forum becoming a burning house - where people just come in with their superior knowledge and add fuel to the fire? Or come in with superior knowledge and save others from the fire with loving kindness?

I'd like to think that more than anything else, a true, mature practitioner shows their level of Dharma practice by SINCERELY CARING ABOUT the others' needs more than your own.

In the case of the Forum, those with superior knowledge should sincerely care more about the readers' needs. And that could be just about anyone reading this wesbite/ forum.

After all, all our teachers have sincerely cared to help us and go all the way with helping despite what we are or who we are. Why can't we do the same for others? 

[Thomas David Canada]

" But some who are narrow minded, not understanding this point, consider this Dharmapala to be like an ordinary worldly being and, with supposed faith in the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, disparage him; or else they indeed admire this great Dharmapala but criticize the Dalai Lama or Panchen Lama. Using either one as a reason not to admire the other and speaking badly about either in any way is the conduct of an ordinary being who, under the influence of attachment and hatred, just tries to help friends and hurt enemies; it obscures the increase of these great holy Aryas' deeds and creates the karmic cause to experience unbearable suffering in the future."

 Maybe Mr. Gyatso should read this, as he taught me how to hate!
1968/hate the Chinese/1977/Really Hate the Chinese/1989/hate the Chinese/1999/Hate the Chinese/2009/Olympic Hate The Chinese!
That's been the message since I cannot remember when
Hear Me Lone Hermit?
If you  mock me again
I will shout in your ears
"Let faith be my shield and let joy be my steed
‘Gainst the dragons of anger, the ogres of greed;
And let me set free, with the sword of my youth,
From the castle of darkness, the power of the truth."
Hear me?
Good Teachers make Good Students!
Hey!

[Thomas David Canada]

How many Western Mahayanna Buddhist do you think were there in 1966?
Some to none! I know, I was there.
How many Anti War Protestors were there in 1966?
Some to none. It grew quickly once the truth was out!
I remember a Buddhist Monk in Viet Nam sitting in a fire he had set to Protest the Insansity of War, that was 1965. I was overwhelmed that someone could self ignite and never budge an inch from his Lotus while the fire consumned his body.
. What Power! What Conviction of Self
How many People even knew who Dl was before he received his Nobel Prize?
Who do you think arranged Dl's first formal visit to the West?
Gonsar Tulku and Geshe Rabten and Ganchen Rinpoches with Geshe Helmut did with open and happy hearts.
They arranged his invitations to meet heads of State. His Security,Everything.Drove his car, translated for him.

Dorje Shugden Lamas and Monks,Lay People Acted as Plymouth rock for Mahayanna Buddhism Entering the West.

Back when you could sit with the Dalia lama all day long.
No fear, all of us were his security
Not that he really needed it in those days
What happened to those days Lone Hermit?
Would you have any idea or were you still attending primary school or even here? .

Millions might change their minds, if he does 'not' first recant and ask forgiveness.
That we can do.
 That we have offered with folded hands millions of times ,all go unheeded until our knees made me get up and say.I am Mad as Hell and I am not Going to Take this Anymore!
 One simple little kind reply to one of his Earlier Benefactors.
Just to discuss it like Brothers.
They had little resources in 1977, little recognition. Just some harmless cute little men.I donated a 115 acres in 1979 to preserve the Culture of Tibet to the Dalia Lama,actually it was 1977 in Indiana. a hubbub of Tibetan Buddhism.
With Geshe Rabten guided by Kyabje Trijang, Zong Rinpoche, Pabonkaba Rinpoche,Ling Rinpoche.
All guided and supported as well by the man who stayed behind .in Lhasa to collect art and relic spending ten years in prison to begin the Tibet House in New Delhi, Domo Geshe Rinpoche
All acting in concert as One
One could safely go to anyone.
All Devoted to Shri Dorje Shugden and the Preservation of the Teachings of Je T'Song Khapa transmittted as Purely as the day Lord  Buddha first spoke them.
 

[Thomas David Canada]

"As Gelugpas we pride ourselves on logic and reasoned argument not meaningless babble. Posts like this make us look ridiculous. lone hermit"
 
Now Lone Hermit,
What did You have to say, in depth about My post Making You look Ridiculous?
Do you actually have anything to say?
Or are you as you appear?
Someone who does not know,
but says something anyway?

Courageously Yours
Protectors Champion
tc
Thom
Lhakpa Gyaltshen
Geronimo
As you like, I am not afraid to say who I am!
Thomas David Canada
 

[Thomas David Canada]

Nothing to say Lone Hermit?
Well let me say this to you and all the readers who happen to come across our little world
I gave up on Debate about this issue a Long,long time ago
I only strive to say the say One Thing, as many different ways I can dream of.
While I listen to indignation from whomever people like you are.
Caught in a Web of Deception Designed to Confuse and Make One Believe this Is the One
If Mr. Gyatso were the One,
We would not be having this discussion.
If you want debate and logic?
Join the Monks in Tushita Heaven
There is Nothing Logical or Justifiable about the Dalia Lama's Activities.
That I have read that is supported in the Kanjur or Tanjur
There is nothing in either Holy Books to Justify his Actions
 
Play the Snob, lonely hermit!
Makes no never mind to me.
Mock me again and you'll see what I mean.
In fact you have forgotten the intent of this site.
Meaningful stories about how the Protector has helped you out.