Yellow is not good! You gotta practice Beige!

[emptymountains]

And then some people go so far as to think that their Lama is wrong. After they’ve received so much Dharma, love and care, and compassion and gifts, and teachings. They’ve received so much from their Lama, and then they think, “Oh, my Lama is wrong.” ... What does that tell you about the person?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_Nj6bs47gE
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[honeydakini]

Hmmmmmm.
This certainly seems to be a worrying, rising trend in the world: that people are quick to abandon their teachers' words and run off to something more exotic or more to their "liking". It is saddening to hear of people who have been following a teacher or centre for years, but then they get bored or the teacher says something to them that they don't like, and they lose faith quickly. Then someone else comes along (beckoning, like an evil mara) and says, "Oh come with me to this Dharma talk with this other eminent Lama" and off they go in the bat of an eyelid.

Sometimes it doesn't even take something bad to happen but people seem to be naturally restless and fickle and always on the look out for something more "exciting".

The spiritual path can be a long one which requires much, much effort and can even sometimes be painful and tough as I'm sure you ALL know! The real excitement is in gaining the attainments and understanding of Dharma that is acquired by STICKING WITH ONE LAMA and seeing things through. We don't run around consulting several doctors all at once do we? Or taking piano lessons from a few instructors at the same time? Or attending different universities simultaneously? Marry 3 or 4 women at the same time? We have "devotion" and commitment in everything else in our life so why is it that in our spiritual path - the most important thing - we like to confuse ourselves by jumping about.

From my own experience in meeting many people in the spiritual scene over recent years, it is the people who have remained most stable with their lama and centre that have progressed, become increasingly steady in their practice and even gone on to take ordination (how wonderful are the sangha of NKT centres, for example! How loyal and steadfast they are in their devotion to Geshe-la). the ones who have been hopping about receiving initiations, teachings from every lama who comes to town (and London is a BIG town), are still doing just that: hopping about, finicky and restless. Ultimately, in running away from one guru to another, we just abandon ourselves because all the lama is doing is to bring out our individual greatest potential.

If you look at Tsem Rinpoche's own centre, you will see proof of the immense growth and achievement that has been attained by his students who demonstrate great loyalty to their path, stability and strength. Proof is in the pudding, and this is one helluva good pudding. Many thanks to Tsem Rinpoche for making this subject clear - I hope many more people see this, see his own good example and are inspired to go ALL THE WAY with their teacher, whoever he/she may be.

[harrynephew]

I do agree with honey dakini with what she has said earlier. It is an unspoken thing within tibetan Buddhist centres these days whenever a student of a certain Lama just abandons the centre/Lama at the drop of a hat.

Can u imagine such disloyalty? What is the purpose to study Buddhism in the first place? Where will the attainments come from? Will the person with such an attitude have any shame or conscience for all the love, care, effort, hours of teachings and Dharma the Lama/centre have put into this person or they're just plain cold/dumb to that fact and choose a path more 'glorifying' than others?

It is very annoying for such an explicit phenomenon as it is like a double end blade which is held at the Lama's neck of mercy before actually slaying the Lama when the person takes the jump over the next ship. I urge for everyone who is aware of such happenings in their own centre, temple or monastery to voice this out compassionately and take it to the level whereby this problem is addressed by the community of lay or ordained Sangha so as to protect the Lama's life and also the for the preservation of the true teachings of Buddhism.

Thanks

H1N1

[Mana]

It is a sad truth that students who run will always deride the guru when leaving a center and I do feel for all the Lama's out there that encounter these types of minds. Minds that choose them, take refuge in them and then leave them.

These points stick out in my mind

leaving a lama says.

1/ dharma does not work
2/ this teacher is no good
3/ this center is no good
4/ Buddha Shakyamuni's teachings are wrong
5/ the student is right
6/ the student is their own teacher

Then you see the student 3years on, 5years,10 years have they attacked the selfish mind? are they still the master of their own destiny (literally haha)? You can still be with your Lama and be thinking this way, you don't have to have abandoned your guru to still get the same results.

Now whoever this person speaks to about their abandonment of their guru/center is just another cause for them to create negative karma and be further from the Dharma, Guru. That is if they dare to open their mouth in favour of their actions that is.

But as all Guru's have compassion we should too, wish them well and hope that one day they repair their samaya's. Or at least stop it from creating more karma.

Great passionate talk from H.E. Tsem Tulku-la, it makes so much sense.

[Zach]

He's Bloody Hilarious is Tsem ! 

[thor]

All those who have abandoned yellow for beige, abandoned their teachers and Dorje Shugden for political correctness and fear of ostracisation, should listen and take heed. Tsem Rimpoche-la gives general advice, but it can certainly apply in this instance. After all, all Dharma should be taken as personal advice, as so poetically put by the unerring master Tsongkapa...

[WisdomBeing]

In Lama Zopa's Advice Book (http://dorjeshugden.com/wp/?p=1166), he gives advice on how dangerous it is if we were to have negative thoughts about our teachers. This advice is the same across all the High lamas and is in the Lamrim and scriptures such as the 50 verses of Guru Devotion. Whether yellow or beige will have its own merits but once we choose yellow OR beige, let's just stick to it!!

This below is an extract from Lama Zopa's advice book:

In Lama Tsongkhapa’s Lam-rim Chen-mo (The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment), it says, “Even simply generating non-devotional thought, to think of the guru as an ordinary person, is an obstacle.” So, you can imagine what it is like if you generate heresy and anger toward your gurus and criticize them with a negative mind. This is creating the heaviest obstacle to realizations on the path to enlightenment, and the heaviest obstacle even to this life’s happiness, as well as to future lives’ happiness. There is no need to mention liberation or enlightenment.

The other thing is that in this life, by generating heretical thoughts or anger toward the guru, one experiences heavy sufferings, especially sickness, and many catastrophes, one after the other. Also, when you die, it is in such a terrible way. It is very terrifying, not peaceful, and there is the most unbearable suffering in the hell realms. Not only that, but it lasts for such a length of time, for eons.

Please read the section on guru devotion in Pabongka Dechen Nyingpo’s Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand. Also, read the section on guru devotion in Lama Tsongkhapa’s Lam-rim Chen-mo. Please study other Dharma books, at least these two texts and the sections that I have mentioned.

In the teaching Commentary on the Difficult Points of the “Black Enemy of Yama,” (Tib: Dra-nag-ka-drel) (see Steps on the Path to Enlightenment, Volume 1, page 157) it is said that after having made a Dharma connection, receiving teachings (even four words), with a recognition of a guru-disciple relationship (the other person is your guru and you are his or her disciple), if you forget to devote yourself to that person as a guru, or if you don’t regard them as your guru, you will be born as a dog for one hundred lifetimes, and then you will be born into a lower rank. His Holiness Zong Rinpoche says one is born as a scorpion instead of in a lower rank.

If you did create negative karma with your teachers, please confess whatever heresy, anger, or criticism you have committed against them. Confess as quickly as possible.

If death comes before your confession, your future lives will be so difficult. Not only will you be unable to meet the guru, but you will also be unable to meet the Dharma. Not only that, but you will experience unimaginable suffering for an incredible amount of time.

The Fifth Dalai Lama advised how to practice guru devotion in this kind of situation. When you have difficulty with gurus, seeing mistakes in their actions, then think that this is the view of your own hallucinated mind. All these appearances are your own mistakes manifested as the guru’s holy actions. Recognize it as your own mistake and abandon it, like a poison.

[crazycloud]

nice.

[honeydakini]

The Fifth Dalai Lama advised how to practice guru devotion in this kind of situation. When you have difficulty with gurus, seeing mistakes in their actions, then think that this is the view of your own hallucinated mind. All these appearances are your own mistakes manifested as the guru’s holy actions. Recognize it as your own mistake and abandon it, like a poison.

This is very true! I think the most helpful thing about scriptures like the 50 Verses and all teachings about Guru Devotion is that show us we can "use" our teachers as a reflection of our own mind. All our reactions towards the Gurus, how we act, the emotions that arise, and even the attainments begin first and foremost by our own diligent practice of awareness towards our teachers. It is extraordinarily kind that the Gurus allow themselves to be our training ground, our punching bag for us to test our own minds, see ourselves for who we are (strengths and weaknesses) and to improve.

All that arises from the gurus, all the methods they employ, as you have rightly noted above Kate, is to reflect ourselves to ourselves. Everything from the tasks they give to us, to the advice, even to the silly jokes and tricks they may pull on us all carefully match what we need most to learn a lesson.

[shugdenprotect]

Time and again, we are taught to practice Guru devotion because Guru devotion and clean samaya is the foundation to achieving spiritual progress and growth.

Guru Devotion trains up our ability to keep our vows. In keeping our vows, we get to collect merits that fuel our spiritual growth. With spiritual growth, we develop mastery of the sutra and tantra within ourselves through the compassionate guidance and teaching of our Guru. This consequently leads to the achievement of rebirth control that will allow us to return in the human realm to continue our Dharma work and journey towards enlightenment.

It is scary how, despite constant reminders as well as “threats” of the frightening effect of broken Guru samaya, which is rebirth in the 3 lower realms, students still “cannot help it” but break their samaya with their Gurus along with their Guru’s heart. Is our karma really so bad that we cannot practice any form of control over our own actions of body, speech and mind? Are our minds so degenerate that we can inflict so much suffering upon our Guru who has been nothing but compassionate to us?

I sincerely hope not!

May this forum discussion be a reminder to us to cherish our Guru whom we are so fortunate to meet. At the same time, may we humbly ask Dorje Shugden to remove our obstacles so that we will tame our minds to realize the kindness of our Guru and train our minds to develop the habit of treating our Guru with deserved reverence.

[Helena]

In this crazy and wild era, if I may say so - it seems that cherishing one's Guru is no longer a sacred act. The students today expect their Gurus to bow down to them and to dance to their tune. So, how can these students stay loyal to a Guru when they can't even stay loyal to a friend, lover, spouse, etc? Times have indeed changed and will be changing even more.

I used to be so shocked and saddened when I heard that Buddha predicted that Dharma will decline and disappear altogether in the future. Now, I can imagine why.

People do not want to wrok for anything and go through any sort of hardships. To some, Dharma is like an escape or a feel good factor. What do they care about mind transformation, surrendering all your wounds and scars, opening up and the ultimate, ENGLIGHTENMENT.

Whatver that can give them the fastest way to solve their problems, or the feel good factor, that's where they will go. It is not surprising to see so many center-hop like it is a tour bus or shop around for a Guru like it is a buffet counter.


What's next? Enlightenment at a pop of a pill? Mind Transformation spa treatment? Zero effort, 100% full benefits, initiations begin in 5 mins. ?