Brilliant explanation on ORACLES!

[Zhalmed Pawo]

All dharmapalas are subservient to the Dalai Lama and high lamas.  It is the reason they appeared subdued and make kata offerings to the Dalai Lama and high lamas when they come into their presence.

Really?

Arhat Pindola also?

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Thank you vajrastorm for lifting this old thread back to the light.

Now we all can easily see that TK also says that Gurus can make mistakes. How wonderful.

There is nothing pure in this world.

TK says gurus can make mistakes, BUT TK NEVER SAID BUDDHAS CAN MAKE MISTAKES. Tk is confused too. This debate about Buddhas making mistakes is so entertaining. I consulted a few more Geshes in Dharamsala and they said they are not surprised a student of Geshe Kelsang can say Buddhas can make mistakes. It shows clearly the confusion of teachings within NKT itself. Find one single book by Geshe Kelsang that says Buddhas can make mistakes. Follow the practice of your own teacher thoroughly. If Buddhas can make mistakes, then Trijang Rinpoche can make mistakes. If Trijang Rinpoche can make mistakes, then Geshe Kelsang is mistaken at least on the Shugden count. Don't quote obscure suttas from other schools not studied within your Gelug school to prove Buddhas make mistakes.

Also I noticed on this forum that all of you are Shugden practitioners YET YOU ALL DON'T AGREE AND GET ALONG.  ???What's up? Zhalmed Pawo always looking for mistakes and accusing Tk or others of whatever. I went to the older threads. Why don't you all get along if Shugden is so good?  And TK himself having respect to Dalai Lama and Shugden. How can you respect Dalai Lama and not give up Shugden?

Zhalmed Pawo just debating endlessly against Shugden people not belonging to NKT about ideology. No wonder your Shugden movement is faltering just as the monks say in Namgyal. Don't you guys agree on anything? Your 'movement' is so broken up. That's what HHDL says. When you worship Shugden, after awhile things go sour although it looks good from the beginning. You are a confusing group of spirit followers. I am sorry to say this and don't mean it in a harsh way. Seriously, worshipping Shugden eventually brings disaster.

I am just surprised how all of you do not get along and you pray to Shugden. Is this the blessings of Shugden?

[Tenzin Gyatso]

All dharmapalas are subservient to the Dalai Lama and high lamas.  It is the reason they appeared subdued and make kata offerings to the Dalai Lama and high lamas when they come into their presence.

Really?

Arhat Pindola also?

All dharma protectors are subservient to His Holiness the Dalai Lama for sure. He is the highest and most learned dharma master on this planet at this time.

[Zhalmed Pawo]

All dharmapalas are subservient to the Dalai Lama and high lamas.  It is the reason they appeared subdued and make kata offerings to the Dalai Lama and high lamas when they come into their presence.

Really?

Arhat Pindola also?

All dharma protectors are subservient to His Holiness the Dalai Lama for sure. He is the highest and most learned dharma master on this planet at this time.

And the direct students of Sramana Gautama have to now bow to HHDL, yes?

Could you tell us that on what year this coup d'etat happened?

[Tenzin Gyatso]

All dharmapalas are subservient to the Dalai Lama and high lamas.  It is the reason they appeared subdued and make kata offerings to the Dalai Lama and high lamas when they come into their presence.

Really?

Arhat Pindola also?

All dharma protectors are subservient to His Holiness the Dalai Lama for sure. He is the highest and most learned dharma master on this planet at this time.

And the direct students of Sramana Gautama have to now bow to HHDL, yes?

Could you tell us that on what year this coup d'etat happened?

What are you talking about?? Sramana? Coup d'etat?

Of course all oracle deities bow to HHDL like you bow to Geshe Kelsang along with hundreds of other Shugden NKT people.

Anyway you or anyone shouldn't bow to Gautama maybe because he makes mistakes (LOL). Why bother even practicing or studying Buddhism. Shakyamuni makes mistakes and why practice towards the goal of a Buddha when they are no better than us. They make mistakes.

Think about it. You accept Shugden. But Shakyamuni makes mistakes. Why bother to get near Shugden or Shakyamuni then. They are all imperfect. 

[Zhalmed Pawo]

Anyway you or anyone shouldn't bow to Gautama maybe because he makes mistakes (LOL). Why bother even practicing or studying Buddhism. Shakyamuni makes mistakes and why practice towards the goal of a Buddha when they are no better than us. They make mistakes.

Think about it. You accept Shugden. But Shakyamuni makes mistakes. Why bother to get near Shugden or Shakyamuni then. They are all imperfect. 

Yes. That is a mystery. I nevertheless go towards Batman, and laugh to those who goeth towards Superman. With Batman, there is a path called Robin, but with Superman, you first need to get a rebirth into an alien world from whence you then can get into this world. The superman-option just is too complicated and too non-buddhist. I prefer the Gothamite solution.

[Tenzin Gyatso]

Anyway you or anyone shouldn't bow to Gautama maybe because he makes mistakes (LOL). Why bother even practicing or studying Buddhism. Shakyamuni makes mistakes and why practice towards the goal of a Buddha when they are no better than us. They make mistakes.

Think about it. You accept Shugden. But Shakyamuni makes mistakes. Why bother to get near Shugden or Shakyamuni then. They are all imperfect. 

Yes. That is a mystery. I nevertheless go towards Batman, and laugh to those who goeth towards Superman. With Batman, there is a path called Robin, but with Superman, you first need to get a rebirth into an alien world from whence you then can get into this world. The superman-option just is too complicated and too non-buddhist. I prefer the Gothamite solution.

Cute example. Thanks! I am still going to stick with the Buddha being perfect and without faults otherwise I mine as well go back to being a Catholic.  I was less confused then. 

[WisdomBeing]

I have no clue where this thread is going and Tenzin Gyatso, could you please be less provocative? Yes, it is very obvious that there are differences between Shugden practitioners from different teachers, cultures, centres. However, I would say that the MAJORITY here are looking for peaceful discussions and to explore dharma topics rather than bicker amongst ourselves.

You’re right though – bickering and finding petty faults are not a good reflection on us as practitioners and I hope that we will all consider how we are each representing Dorje Shugden to the world via our body, speech and mind.

In any case, I’d like to get back to the original topic of this thread - oracles.

I don’t believe that oracles are not acceptable to the West. After all, the Gameng oracle is based in Bloomington, Indiana, in the United States and I heard that he has a LOT of support and sponsorship.

In the UK especially, many people are attracted to tarot readings and contacting mediums… of course these are all very superficial activities but what I am saying is that I believe that westerners in general are not averse to the mysticism of oracles. My ex-boyfriend was a white wizard (white as in white magic, not a reference to his ethnicity) and he channeled some funky stuff. I wasn’t into that scene then (nor now) but he had a big following then and it has grown since.

I think if authentic oracles were available in the west, it would be very welcome!

[Positive Change]

I have no clue where this thread is going and Tenzin Gyatso, could you please be less provocative? Yes, it is very obvious that there are differences between Shugden practitioners from different teachers, cultures, centres. However, I would say that the MAJORITY here are looking for peaceful discussions and to explore dharma topics rather than bicker amongst ourselves.

You’re right though – bickering and finding petty faults are not a good reflection on us as practitioners and I hope that we will all consider how we are each representing Dorje Shugden to the world via our body, speech and mind.

In any case, I’d like to get back to the original topic of this thread - oracles.

I don’t believe that oracles are not acceptable to the West. After all, the Gameng oracle is based in Bloomington, Indiana, in the United States and I heard that he has a LOT of support and sponsorship.

In the UK especially, many people are attracted to tarot readings and contacting mediums… of course these are all very superficial activities but what I am saying is that I believe that westerners in general are not averse to the mysticism of oracles. My ex-boyfriend was a white wizard (white as in white magic, not a reference to his ethnicity) and he channeled some funky stuff. I wasn’t into that scene then (nor now) but he had a big following then and it has grown since.

I think if authentic oracles were available in the west, it would be very welcome!

Well said Wisdom being... after all, in Greek times, the infamous Delphic Oracle was the most sought after. People came from all parts of the world to seek the "all-seeing". Hence the culture of the Oracle has been instilled in the minds and culture of the west too. It is NOT a strange phenomenon of unacceptable mystical proportions.

I hear that in the customs and cultures of the Aboriginals of Australia, there are also such so called oracles. Methods may differ but the fact that a "medium" is used in communicating between the "Gods" and mortals has always been part of a culture somewhere around the world.

In my visits in South East Asia, I hear also of individuals that can "see" the future and "consult" with the "Gods". I believe as long as there is us and them (amongst other beings), there will always be some method of communicating which will continue into the future. Perhaps we may not use the term oracle or the methods may differ from now as they did in the past, but the point of the matter is, like karma, whether we believe in it or not, it exists.

To disprove or approve is in my opinion irrelavant. For those of us who belief, lets rejoice in this direct "cellphone call" to the divine... and for the skeptics or the disbelievers, take it as yet another thing you cannot explain but happens regardless, like your breathing (then again even that ceases after a while... !

[beggar]

Also I noticed on this forum that all of you are Shugden practitioners YET YOU ALL DON'T AGREE AND GET ALONG.  ???What's up? Zhalmed Pawo always looking for mistakes and accusing Tk or others of whatever. I went to the older threads. Why don't you all get along if Shugden is so good?  And TK himself having respect to Dalai Lama and Shugden. How can you respect Dalai Lama and not give up Shugden?

Tenzin Gyatso: name one center, organisation, group in the world that does not have some kind of disagreement. It is not bad for people to disagree - this is the very nature of samsara! I don't think there is anything wrong in having different opinions, the point of having a forum in the first place is to debate out these different points of views.

Yes, there are opposing views within the Shugden issue. There are people who are very much against the Dalai Lama's actions and speak out very strongly against him, and there are some who disagree with the ban but choose to still maintain a respectful stance towards him and not say anything. Both stances have their merits and their demerits but i think we have come to a point in this forum that we agree to disagree with each other. A little friendly debate doesn't harm anyway. at the same time, it helps us understand the situation better when we "argue" from different places and helps us develop firmness in our own belief and position.

[vajratruth]

Thank you TK for such a treasure trove of information. What you wrote in point 6 especially calls for contemplation. Indeed, its merely an academic question if what we are learning can be sourced from the Sutra or not.  The reality is that most of us do not possess even a remote knowledge of the entire Sutra, let alone the Tantra to be able to verify.

Like TK said, it is therefore crucial that we know the qualification of the Guru and that can only be seen from his lineage and the results his lineage Masters have achieved.

I would like to point out the irony of Christianity dismissing the idea of oracular practice and divination as magic or “black magic”. One of the most prominent “gifts” Christians today celebrate, is the Gift of Prophesy. Those with this gift are able to call on the spirit of God to enter a human body for the purpose of giving advice healing and fortelling the future. Oracle? The entire last chapter of the Bible “Revelation” is based on “magic”.

[Ensapa]

Thank you TK for such a treasure trove of information. What you wrote in point 6 especially calls for contemplation. Indeed, its merely an academic question if what we are learning can be sourced from the Sutra or not.  The reality is that most of us do not possess even a remote knowledge of the entire Sutra, let alone the Tantra to be able to verify.

Like TK said, it is therefore crucial that we know the qualification of the Guru and that can only be seen from his lineage and the results his lineage Masters have achieved.

I would like to point out the irony of Christianity dismissing the idea of oracular practice and divination as magic or “black magic”. One of the most prominent “gifts” Christians today celebrate, is the Gift of Prophesy. Those with this gift are able to call on the spirit of God to enter a human body for the purpose of giving advice healing and fortelling the future. Oracle? The entire last chapter of the Bible “Revelation” is based on “magic”.

What I find perplexing also about christianity is that to teach and become a pastor, you need to wait for the calling or else it won't be successful. In Buddhism we just put in effort and study and we can become Dharma teachers. Not in christianity apparently, without the calling you will be an unsuccessful pastor/priest/bishop. Who can verify a person's calling? it can come through dreams or incidents in life…uhhh sounds pretty mysterious to me.

After hearing that, suddenly  oracles make more sense than that. At least oracles are something we can all verify instead of having to take someone's word for it. Who verifies someone's calling? Someone speaks to an angel or something to confirm? I am sorry but i cannot accept that part of christianity, and that seems to be one of their core beliefs. And on the other hand they accuse others of being superstitious.

Its pretty funny to see the double standards that christianity has. But with that said, we should not judge other people's religion, but yeah that is a main reason of discomfort i have with christianity. There is nobody to verify revelations or callings…its just blind faith (sorry but its true!!) what if its satan giving the calling? Then how?
 
Someone who is not qualified can always not need to follow oracles. It is not a compulsory thing that we must follow oracles or die…its just something to help us along the path. If we don't we progress slower and thats just about it because they give advice with foresight beyond our comprehension.  So if we're stubborn and want to cling to our insecurities…we lose out.

Decisions in the Dharma are sometimes very simple and fundamental: its whether or not we want benefit or we want to cling on to our little views because we are too afraid to step out of the boat. It is the same with Guru devotion, Dharmapalas, Yidams and the like. I have noticed that so many times, in others that it is not even funny anymore.

[montymonkey123]

WOW! didn't know that Dorje Shugden himself officiated the opening of Shar Gaden by taking trance of Gameng,doing a Wisdom Dance, and accepting offerings, advice and prophecies,also i didn't know that there was so many Lojong-Lam Rim-Annuttara-tantra-loving sangha there to witness this great event and to feel blessed by the presence of Dorje Shugden thru Gameng to give them the hope they need, answer their questions, give them directions when their are feeling lonely, isolated, and suppressed unlike our our beloved dharma brothers and sisters who can practice freely without any obstacles. We should think, it may not be in our culture but it should  still be respected whether it is momos/tibetan tea/tsampa.

[Ensapa]

TK says gurus can make mistakes, BUT TK NEVER SAID BUDDHAS CAN MAKE MISTAKES. Tk is confused too. This debate about Buddhas making mistakes is so entertaining. I consulted a few more Geshes in Dharamsala and they said they are not surprised a student of Geshe Kelsang can say Buddhas can make mistakes. It shows clearly the confusion of teachings within NKT itself. Find one single book by Geshe Kelsang that says Buddhas can make mistakes. Follow the practice of your own teacher thoroughly. If Buddhas can make mistakes, then Trijang Rinpoche can make mistakes. If Trijang Rinpoche can make mistakes, then Geshe Kelsang is mistaken at least on the Shugden count. Don't quote obscure suttas from other schools not studied within your Gelug school to prove Buddhas make mistakes.

Also I noticed on this forum that all of you are Shugden practitioners YET YOU ALL DON'T AGREE AND GET ALONG.  ???What's up? Zhalmed Pawo always looking for mistakes and accusing Tk or others of whatever. I went to the older threads. Why don't you all get along if Shugden is so good?  And TK himself having respect to Dalai Lama and Shugden. How can you respect Dalai Lama and not give up Shugden?

Zhalmed Pawo just debating endlessly against Shugden people not belonging to NKT about ideology. No wonder your Shugden movement is faltering just as the monks say in Namgyal. Don't you guys agree on anything? Your 'movement' is so broken up. That's what HHDL says. When you worship Shugden, after awhile things go sour although it looks good from the beginning. You are a confusing group of spirit followers. I am sorry to say this and don't mean it in a harsh way. Seriously, worshipping Shugden eventually brings disaster.

I am just surprised how all of you do not get along and you pray to Shugden. Is this the blessings of Shugden?

Well, there's always an oddball somewhere, and there's always the black sheep of the family. Why would you take the black sheep or the problematic one and compare it everyone else? Its like saying that the whole carton of apples is bad just because one apple in the box is rotten. Why would anyone want to do that? I dont know if you noticed but he's the only one here that does that.

Everyone else here gets along fine and exchanges ideas and information. I believe you can witness that and we have all kinds of information, and even direct and exclusive information directly from Shar Ganden itself so we get the latest and hottest news from Shar Ganden AND Ganden since they are connected. This is on top of all the historical information about Dorje Shugden and the discussions of logic.

We also give advice to each other, discuss about CTA, the effects of the ban, Tibetan politics and how it should be run for the sake of the Tibetans based on logic and research. We talk about how Dorje Shugden has helped us and can help us, or how he can benefit others. So what do you think this is the result of? Do you see such discussions on other Buddhist forums around? I dont think so.

No disrespect intended but most other Buddhist forums tend to get stuck on technical texts and practices that they do not have any chance of gaining attainments from (mostly because you're not supposed to talk about them in public and you need to have the preliminaries and close proximity and contact with the Guru, with those there is no need to discuss them ONLINE where everyone can see, right?) but not this forum.

Know and see the difference.

[michaela]

The oracle phenomena is relatively new to me.  I am a firm believer to have confidence in oneself to do things that are not against my conscience.  How one draws the line between when to request advice from Oracle and when to trust in one's own judgement and pray for the best will happen because I have done everything I can to the best of my ability?