Contraversy built on another contraversy, what are they really trying to do????!

[lightning]

Dear TC and lighting,

I know you may not agree with me but I still hold strongly that they are able to do this to bring a certain group of beings to spiritual maturity. Remember, it takes quite a lot of merit to receive and understand Buddha's teachings and even more so to practice Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings. If Buddhas can emanate as bridges, spirits, demons, men, women and children, why not a holy being, saint etc of another religion.

There must be something that he is doing that is benefitting them. Perhaps these people need his style of teaching to develop faith in the Buddha. Since he can benefit so many, isn't he more beneficial than most of us here who benefit only a handful and some of us can hardly benefit ourselves. At the end, I don't have the wisdom to judge either so I am not saying he is definitely an emanation and that he is a Buddha or benefitting these people but I am saying the possibility is there. Don't you think?

Big Uncle

I am pointing to the incomplete part of his teachings. From the completeness of the teachings, is the spiritual guide deserve us to follow? I agreed that Buddha may manifest any possible ways, but let us not to mistaken crystal as a diamond.

[lightning]

Dear lightning,
So with the main topic of this thread which is Master Lu - I don't agree with the logic of his story - attainments once gained cannot be taken away, and even more so if he is a living buddha. And I definitely don't agree with how Dorje Shugden is portrayed as a mundane protector or even a worldly spirit. If he is a truly a living-Buddha, then his actions will be for a greater good and are pure in motivation, however strange it may appear to our untrained eye. But with all respect, I will choose a different teacher whose teachings can be examined by logic and debate, and with less elements of mysticism within.

I also agreed that teachings is examined by logic and debate ulitmately.
Attainment of path of seeing and above is irreversible, as one will be free from samsara forever and will never be revert as a normal layman. But worldly sidhhis maybe removed, for example from Lam Rim, there is a student who floated above his guru and started to develope haughty thoughts that he is better than his Guru. At that instant, he lose his ability to float in air and fell to his death.

[Big Uncle]

Dear TC and lighting,

I know you may not agree with me but I still hold strongly that they are able to do this to bring a certain group of beings to spiritual maturity. Remember, it takes quite a lot of merit to receive and understand Buddha's teachings and even more so to practice Lama Tsongkhapa's teachings. If Buddhas can emanate as bridges, spirits, demons, men, women and children, why not a holy being, saint etc of another religion.

There must be something that he is doing that is benefitting them. Perhaps these people need his style of teaching to develop faith in the Buddha. Since he can benefit so many, isn't he more beneficial than most of us here who benefit only a handful and some of us can hardly benefit ourselves. At the end, I don't have the wisdom to judge either so I am not saying he is definitely an emanation and that he is a Buddha or benefitting these people but I am saying the possibility is there. Don't you think?

Big Uncle

I am pointing to the incomplete part of his teachings. From the completeness of the teachings, is the spiritual guide deserve us to follow? I agreed that Buddha may manifest any possible ways, but let us not to mistaken crystal as a diamond.

In other words, you agree with me... Glad to know that because a 'complete' teaching for you is completely inaccessible for some people while teachings on emptiness that brings realisation of emptiness according to Nagarjuna's view is still incomprehensible to you or to me. Hence, what am I saying? There are other styles and methods of teachings but that doesn't make them  any less complete or any less real because ultimately, it is helping a group of people and our style and method is helping us. That was my point. Hope that didn't make things more complicated here...

Big Uncle

[Big Uncle]

Who is He and what do I agree bu?
"There must be something that he is doing that is benefitting them."

The teachers of other methods and ways and "don't you think" is just a figure of speech.

[honeydakini]

It is important that the spiritual guide should have for lineage tracing back to the Buddha (original source). As the teachings are passed down orally without flaws in understanding the underlying meanings to Buddha's Dharma instructions from Buddha Shakyamuni down to all the lineage masters till our generation. These authentic teachings are the password to the meaning as expounded on the sutras or Lamrim etc. From receiving this type of oral instructions from qualified spiritual guide, then only there will be hope in reaching supramundane attainments. No one can ever guessed these underlying instructions without "passwords" handed down from the lineage masters.

This is an excellent point. I won't go back to debating the quote from Master Lu as I have already explained my reasons and understanding for why I think it is a valid teaching but this point about being able to trace our lineage is most key to any of our practices. I agree with you there lightning - at the heart of every single teaching, our teachers should be able to tell us where they got their teachings from, so that the teachings can be traced all the way back via an authentic unbroken lineage.

I also agree with you on the point that spiritual teachers should not be boasting about their spiritual powers, attainments, visions etc as that is so much not in line with the buddhist teachings on humility. The real power of a teaching comes in the whole lineage of blessings that comes before it, that is traced back to shakyamuni who is fully enlightened and an object of refuge; power doesn't come from just one individual claiming this because who will believe that? and how can we ever prove it?

To me, I think the best miracles, powers and attainments I have ever seen in my own lama is his kindness. All the other supernatural stuff - flying in the sky, controlling weather, seeing things - can be attained even be lesser beings, through black magic and sorcery and the like. Kindness isn't something we can just magic out of the air. And all this kindness that our teacher shows us finds its basis in the teachings of the lamrim, a totally solid, sound foundation with a very traceable lineage.

[Helena]

It is dangerous when teachings have no lineage, then there is no verification of a reliable source. Then how can attainments arise? The lineage from a reliable source ensures that there will be results, i.e. real attainments when we follow the teachings/path.

However, there are many methods and several lineages out there - all available for the different individuals. As long as they are authentic, then the individuals who follow them will gain attainments. So, for every single person, there would be a path that's best suited for him or her. And to each, his/her own.

Who am I to judge?

As long as there are real results, I would say that it is authentic and beneficial.

 

[kurava]

Thank you Lighting , Duldzin , Big uncle, HoneyDakini,etc  for very good debates and explanations. This is really fulfilling the purpose of this forum which is to debate,share resources and knowledge so that we become better Buddhists and people. I can see the postings here are very sincere and genuinely with intention to benefit.
I like Lighting's statement that ' We are not pure  or impure....' This is consistent with what I learned from my Lama that we are a mixture of good, bad and neutral karma.Sakyamuni discovered that we can remove the bad ones,like hydrogen from oxygen, thus attaining a pure mind.
I find the Buddhist model above,( I remembered  Master Sheng Yen also said this in a talk many years back.) most acceptable compared with the Christian view that ' Man are born sinners' or the Confucian view that 'Man are fundamentally pure/virtuous' because I can experience the three states of mind and my daily actions influenced by them.
It should also address the question asked by many as to when or how we ' first' lost our pure mind to ignorance.

[shugdenprotect]

Wisdom Being, I agree with you. Ways that are outside of our fixed beliefs are the best to cut through our delusions and ego. Our minds have a funny way of “playing games with us” and it is quite amazing to notice how our minds react to information or situations that are not aligned to our expectation. 

For example, when I first read this article, I quickly came to a conclusion that Master Lu is certainly a “bad” teacher. However, reading other comments, I noticed that my reaction is created by a mind that have been molded into a certain response-pattern from years of habituation. This reminds me of a teaching I heard about re-habituation: changing the habits of our minds so that we go beyond limits that we have set upon ourselves.

One of the tools I have been blessed to come across is the teaching on the 8 verse of mind transformation by Langro Tangpa. Geshe Kelsang Gyatson wrote a commentary on these verses in his book “8 steps to happiness”.

In this situation, had I applied the second verse of mind transformation (Whenever I associate with others, May I view myself as the lowest of all; And with a perfect intention, May I cherish others as supreme), arrogance and judgment that causes and enhances ignorance could be avoided.

Once again, I thank the participants of this forum and the Dharma for always presenting an opportunity to learn and grow through constructive input and sharing.

[honeydakini]

There are very clear scriptures and teachings that give us very clear guidance as to the qualities of a teacher that we should look out for when we check the teacher. We don’t simply get taken in by someone because they are charismatic or have a big following or are famous. It states clearly in the 50 Verses of Guru Devotion for example,

“In order for the words of honour of neither the Guru nor the disciple to degenerate, there must be a mutual examination beforehand (to determine if each can) brave a Guru-disciple relationship.

A disciple with sense should not accept as his Guru someone who lacks compassion or who is angersome, vicious or arrogant, possessive, undisciplined or boasts of his knowledge.

A Guru should be stable in his actions, cultivated in his speech, wise, patient and honest. He should neither conceal his shortcomings, nor pretend to possess qualities he lacks. He should be an expert in the meanings of tantra and in its ritual procedures of medicine and turning back obstacles. Also he should have loving compassion and a complete knowledge of the scriptures.

He should have full experience in both ten fields, skill in the drawing of mandalas, full knowledge of how to explain the tantras, supreme faith and his senses fully under control.”

There are many very clear teachings which give further commentaries on this such as Alexander Berzin’s book Relating to a Spiritual Teacher or Gurus for Hire, Enlightenment for Sale, by Tsem Tulku Rinpoche. They are very clear and logical points to consider – much like a process of checking out the qualifications of a doctor or a teacher.

And it is not just to check him as a person, but his teachings – where do they come from? His lineage? Where he received these teachings from? These are all factors to consider so we don’t end up in a relationship that could be harmful or which we lose faith in quickly.

Many people get themselves into trouble because they don’t check what they are getting themselves into. This is why the teachings so clearly state that the process of checking a teacher beforehand is of utmost importance. It is to protect ourselves if nothing else. Sometimes, it may not even be that the teacher is unqualified. It could just be the simple fact that you don’t “click” with this teacher or have that particular affinity. Still, you would need to check things out to see if you could really learn from this teacher or not – either way, the process of checking is very clear and important.

[lightning]

Hi HoneyDakini,

Thanks for your above further clarification for the rest of the newbie, who are in search for spritual path.